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25 Jan 14
17:50
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Date Joined:
21 May 10
Before I outline the situation, let me say that I do intend to get professional advice but respect the opinions of the astute people on here and am just looking for some food for thought.
Ok. I own a one-third share of a flat together with my uncle and aunt (they are siblings).
The property is rented out and I have received my share of the rent up to and including March 2012. It is managed by a letting agency but my aunt deals with everything else.
I had no contact with her (other than receiving an annual cheque in the post) until she sent me a text message in September 2013 saying she wanted to buy my share of the flat, her brother had agreed to sell his share and could she call me to discuss.
She rang me the same day and only at this point did she tell me that the flat needed doing up and that the kitchen and bathroom had been refurbed in May 2013. She also said that she had the flat valued at £250k BEFORE the refurb and that I could sell my share for £83.3k
I said I woul need to think about whether or not I wanted to sell and we would talk again. I also reminded her that I hadn't received my share of the rent for 2011/12 or 2012/13.
I received a cheque for the rent for 2011/12 a few days later.
I wasn't keen to sell so left it until she contacted me about three weeks later. I then told her that I didn't really want to sell and she said that she'd have to ask me for one-third of the refurb costs which she now tells me is £20.4k in total ie my share would £6.8k
I said that I understand but that she would have to send me details of the costs and rent charged pre and post-refurb. and that I would give the sale idea more thought. I also asked to see a copy of the valuation but she said she didn't have anything.
She sent me the numbers but no breakdown of the refurb costs - just the total.
In December, I did some research on Zoopla and found a very similar property in the same street valued at £317k, with a slightly lower rental income estimate.
I contacted her and said I was concerned about the valuation. Her response was that it was impossible to compare because her valuation was done in prior to the refurb
I phoned her and said that she can't expect to purchase a property in December at a retrospective value and that I may as well pay my share of the refurb costs and sell at today's price and why on earth didn't she tell me that she was going to spend £20k on a refurb?
In the end she said "because my brother told me not to".
The choice they've given me is either sell at the £250k value, which apparently he has agreed to (I would add that he is a wealthy man so he's possibly not too worried about losing £10k); or pay one third of the refurb costs NOW and lose the opportunity to sell in the future.
She has also threatened me verbally with solicitors (for why, I don't know) and also charging me for her time for project-managing the refurb
Any comments would be most welcome
Ok. I own a one-third share of a flat together with my uncle and aunt (they are siblings).
The property is rented out and I have received my share of the rent up to and including March 2012. It is managed by a letting agency but my aunt deals with everything else.
I had no contact with her (other than receiving an annual cheque in the post) until she sent me a text message in September 2013 saying she wanted to buy my share of the flat, her brother had agreed to sell his share and could she call me to discuss.
She rang me the same day and only at this point did she tell me that the flat needed doing up and that the kitchen and bathroom had been refurbed in May 2013. She also said that she had the flat valued at £250k BEFORE the refurb and that I could sell my share for £83.3k
I said I woul need to think about whether or not I wanted to sell and we would talk again. I also reminded her that I hadn't received my share of the rent for 2011/12 or 2012/13.
I received a cheque for the rent for 2011/12 a few days later.
I wasn't keen to sell so left it until she contacted me about three weeks later. I then told her that I didn't really want to sell and she said that she'd have to ask me for one-third of the refurb costs which she now tells me is £20.4k in total ie my share would £6.8k
I said that I understand but that she would have to send me details of the costs and rent charged pre and post-refurb. and that I would give the sale idea more thought. I also asked to see a copy of the valuation but she said she didn't have anything.
She sent me the numbers but no breakdown of the refurb costs - just the total.
In December, I did some research on Zoopla and found a very similar property in the same street valued at £317k, with a slightly lower rental income estimate.
I contacted her and said I was concerned about the valuation. Her response was that it was impossible to compare because her valuation was done in prior to the refurb
I phoned her and said that she can't expect to purchase a property in December at a retrospective value and that I may as well pay my share of the refurb costs and sell at today's price and why on earth didn't she tell me that she was going to spend £20k on a refurb?
In the end she said "because my brother told me not to".
The choice they've given me is either sell at the £250k value, which apparently he has agreed to (I would add that he is a wealthy man so he's possibly not too worried about losing £10k); or pay one third of the refurb costs NOW and lose the opportunity to sell in the future.
She has also threatened me verbally with solicitors (for why, I don't know) and also charging me for her time for project-managing the refurb
Any comments would be most welcome
Show More
Previous post was for Jimmy.
In an ideal world, I would like to hang on to the property but given the situation, I would be happy to sell but at a fair price
In an ideal world, I would like to hang on to the property but given the situation, I would be happy to sell but at a fair price
you need an explanation for their not telling you as a starting point.
i'm starting to get the feeling that she feels like she's been taken advantage of and wants something for it.
but she's acted inappropriately.
before anyone starts wasting money on lawyers would it not be better to talk it through face to face in amicable surroundings, like a meal.
or has it already gone too far?
i'm starting to get the feeling that she feels like she's been taken advantage of and wants something for it.
but she's acted inappropriately.
before anyone starts wasting money on lawyers would it not be better to talk it through face to face in amicable surroundings, like a meal.
or has it already gone too far?
DS - probably gone too far.
When I queried the valuation, she sent me an email saying it was impossible to compare with the similar property because the valuation was done prior to the refurb
I rang her to say that in that case I couldn't sell at the £250k and may as well pay my share of the refurb and sell at the current value.
Her immediate response was "I'll have to take you to court" followed by threats of charging my for her management time etc
It was borderline hysteria
When I queried the valuation, she sent me an email saying it was impossible to compare with the similar property because the valuation was done prior to the refurb
I rang her to say that in that case I couldn't sell at the £250k and may as well pay my share of the refurb and sell at the current value.
Her immediate response was "I'll have to take you to court" followed by threats of charging my for her management time etc
It was borderline hysteria
The valuation in irrelevant, you are entitled to 1/3 of whatever it sells for.
As an aside you may want to factor in it is likely that in 5 years time the property
could be worth less. Property prices are falling and you will still be faced with
selling at some point. Might be best to sell and not have it on your mind.
As an aside you may want to factor in it is likely that in 5 years time the property
could be worth less. Property prices are falling and you will still be faced with
selling at some point. Might be best to sell and not have it on your mind.
agree to cooling off period, a month or so, to let things die down, firing off snotty emails to each other is not going to resolve this. The personalities are clashing/rubbing you both up the wrong way.
Think you might have to be careful here, if they are willing to work together and tell a few porkies to rip you off.
Was there a contract drawn up when you first purchased the house ? if so, what does it say.
If not, they could well join together in a court and say you agreed to the refurb against the off set of rent and thats why she hadnt paid you and then say you agreed to the sale, but have now backed out and hence why she is taking you to court.
Was there a contract drawn up when you first purchased the house ? if so, what does it say.
If not, they could well join together in a court and say you agreed to the refurb against the off set of rent and thats why she hadnt paid you and then say you agreed to the sale, but have now backed out and hence why she is taking you to court.
LFC - interesting points.
However, surely the valuation IS relevant because it's not being put on the open market, she already owns 1/3 and wants to buy my 1/3
Surely prices are currently rising. They may fall again when interest rates rise but there is an severe shortage in the supply of property.
Also, this property is in London, within a 2 min walk of a tube station (albeit on the outskirts of town).
Its value did fall circa 2009/10 but it's now worth more than it was at the peak circa 2008
I would be interested though, to hear your views on property values
However, surely the valuation IS relevant because it's not being put on the open market, she already owns 1/3 and wants to buy my 1/3
Surely prices are currently rising. They may fall again when interest rates rise but there is an severe shortage in the supply of property.
Also, this property is in London, within a 2 min walk of a tube station (albeit on the outskirts of town).
Its value did fall circa 2009/10 but it's now worth more than it was at the peak circa 2008
I would be interested though, to hear your views on property values
its difficult to say nick, but as it is the property is split 3 ways so will always be
a potential problem. House prices in England are falling (don`t believe the hype). This
includes the south and London is not immune. The more people coming into a country
and this means London will mean, and it seems counter-intuitive, but it can lead to a
fall in property prices. Your aunt may do you a favor if she buys now.
a potential problem. House prices in England are falling (don`t believe the hype). This
includes the south and London is not immune. The more people coming into a country
and this means London will mean, and it seems counter-intuitive, but it can lead to a
fall in property prices. Your aunt may do you a favor if she buys now.
House prices in England are falling (don`t believe the hype)
What do you base this on?
What do you base this on?
So by her estimations 83.3k + 20.4k your share would be 90k (if you paid6.8k towards the refurb)
My immediate instinct is Demand to see the Property !!!
See if works have been carried out ... and if they're good .. or not !
How much rent does the property Yield .. cash per month / year ?
and are there Charges to be paid on top ?
The reason you seem to be hanging in there is Property rises & Capital gain ... Yes
Although she seems a right vindictive B"tch ..she needs a bit of a putdown ... imo
My immediate instinct is Demand to see the Property !!!
See if works have been carried out ... and if they're good .. or not !
How much rent does the property Yield .. cash per month / year ?
and are there Charges to be paid on top ?
The reason you seem to be hanging in there is Property rises & Capital gain ... Yes
Although she seems a right vindictive B"tch ..she needs a bit of a putdown ... imo
Lfc1971...I'm interested in your assertion that house prices in the South of England are falling. I'm not disagreeing with you but I'm curious to hear you expand on it with facts and/or anecdotal evidence?
and sorry ofcourse you are right the valuation is relevant if it is not being put on
the market.
the market.
If the Yield is Low ... Haggle her for your 90k ...
then let her Tyres down gently
then let her Tyres down gently
Tell her you are charging interest at the RPI on the rent due to you which she failed to pay you. Theres no reason for her not having paid this to you if the initial agreement was that rent would be split 3 ways. Whereas she has only just told you about the refurb and shouldn't have gone ahead with it until you consented.
What kind of refurb was it? Was it just updating or work that was necessary under your duties as landlords?
What kind of refurb was it? Was it just updating or work that was necessary under your duties as landlords?
She has told me that the kitchen and bathroom were gutted and replaced. Not sure if there was any other work done.
Maybe I'm out of touch but I was surprised when she told me it came to over £20k
Maybe I'm out of touch but I was surprised when she told me it came to over £20k
dizzydavid1 lONDON prices and certain small parts of the south east are skewing the figures
but London is not as important as it seems, the south east will have to follow the rest of the country.
but London is not as important as it seems, the south east will have to follow the rest of the country.
the thing is will she Ever want to sell it .. and when .. ask her !
Thanks Lfc, so are you saying that , at the moment, prices in London and the South East are not falling?
I london property rises in value by 200,000 but 10 loose value in the south say by
5000. Are prices falling or rising? This is how they mislead
5000. Are prices falling or rising? This is how they mislead
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I'm inclined to agree with you on that Lfc. Here's a few pieces of recent anecdotal evidence, which show two very different sides of the coin. A friend of mine recently sold above asking price, it went to sealed bids. A neighbour of mine has had his house on the market for months, reduced the price once, still not much interest as far as I'm aware. Similarly 2 neighbours of my parents have been on for many months now at what I consider to be ludicrous prices and are not getting very far. I think many Londoners do believe the hype and get so greedy that they price themselves out of a deal.
Yes i agree, i have seen houses sitting unsold for more than a year and longer,
when they are at the correct value it shoulld take about 6 weeks to find a buyer
when they are at the correct value it shoulld take about 6 weeks to find a buyer
Interesting.
Of course, all properties' sales prices can be found on Zoopla and other sites
Of course, all properties' sales prices can be found on Zoopla and other sites
McM - the valuations may be open to question but aren't the sales prices factual?
you should have responded more quickly - 3 weeks is just ignorant unless you had a genuine excuse
However, if you bought equal shares and your name is on the title deeds you can afford to sit tight and weigh things up, the property isn't going anywhere!
Qu: did the flat require a refurb? did you ever look around the place before the refurb? It's unusual to stick a 20K refurb into a rental property because it'll get hammered by the tenants. Also the spend ratio of 20K on a 250K flat is way over the top imo - 10K on a property of that value is plenty.
Another point. There is no such thing as project managing a kitchen and bathroom refurb. FFS you get a quote for the job from a contractor and let them get on with it. Grand Designs this aint. All you have to do is make a brew every now and again if you're around, otherwise just give them the keys and let them get on with it.
BTL is a business and you all should be submitting tax returns. Necessary Refurb costs can be included in the P & L so it would have been in her interest to have kept all receipts for works carried out.
You need to take a bit of control of the situation. Tell her you WANT to see the invoices for the refurb and receipts to show they have been paid - you can't take her word for it - she could have paid a cowboy 5K cash for all you know!
Then and only then, get 3 valuations (and get involved by phoning the agents yourself). With a tenant in situ this may be difficult as they may not agree to EA's wondering around a property they are paying rent for!.
Is she doesn't agree to this then I'd call her bluff and let her (try) and take you to court.
However, if you bought equal shares and your name is on the title deeds you can afford to sit tight and weigh things up, the property isn't going anywhere!
Qu: did the flat require a refurb? did you ever look around the place before the refurb? It's unusual to stick a 20K refurb into a rental property because it'll get hammered by the tenants. Also the spend ratio of 20K on a 250K flat is way over the top imo - 10K on a property of that value is plenty.
Another point. There is no such thing as project managing a kitchen and bathroom refurb. FFS you get a quote for the job from a contractor and let them get on with it. Grand Designs this aint. All you have to do is make a brew every now and again if you're around, otherwise just give them the keys and let them get on with it.
BTL is a business and you all should be submitting tax returns. Necessary Refurb costs can be included in the P & L so it would have been in her interest to have kept all receipts for works carried out.
You need to take a bit of control of the situation. Tell her you WANT to see the invoices for the refurb and receipts to show they have been paid - you can't take her word for it - she could have paid a cowboy 5K cash for all you know!
Then and only then, get 3 valuations (and get involved by phoning the agents yourself). With a tenant in situ this may be difficult as they may not agree to EA's wondering around a property they are paying rent for!.
Is she doesn't agree to this then I'd call her bluff and let her (try) and take you to court.
If you want Factal sale prices go to rightmove !
Zoople are just scam artists .. plus any property bought below market price won't be shown anyway !
Zoople are just scam artists .. plus any property bought below market price won't be shown anyway !
Emden - thanks.
I take the three week thing on board. I guess it was partly because I wanted to gain the maximum possible time to make a decsion and partly because I felt I was being bullied and was in no mood to jump through hoops.
Our names are on the title deeds but we didn't buy the flat - it was inherited.
Did the flat require a refurb? I don't know. She says it had to be done and i believe her but as I have said, £20k seems a bit much.
I will take control in terms of asking to see invoices etc but as I have said, she doesn't want to buy on the basis of a current valuation
I take the three week thing on board. I guess it was partly because I wanted to gain the maximum possible time to make a decsion and partly because I felt I was being bullied and was in no mood to jump through hoops.
Our names are on the title deeds but we didn't buy the flat - it was inherited.
Did the flat require a refurb? I don't know. She says it had to be done and i believe her but as I have said, £20k seems a bit much.
I will take control in terms of asking to see invoices etc but as I have said, she doesn't want to buy on the basis of a current valuation
Nick can you say what the flat rents for ?
If it's just investment you want look outside of London .. you could own a nice flat of your own for 90k
If it's just investment you want look outside of London .. you could own a nice flat of your own for 90k
About £1300 pcm currently. Before the refurb, £890
That's gross; before agent's fees, ground rent etc
If the £20k refurb has put the rent up by 46% I wouldn't be inclined to question it
it's not really ... buy your own for 90k you could have 7.5%
IAWN, rightmove/sold house prices is a good place to look for similar sales in the street where the property is located.
Thanks squares - done that. When I mentioned Zoopla, I did in fact, check Rightmove also.
It is a good yield, which is why she wants to buy. Even better if she can get it for share for 2/3 x (250k + 20k)
It is a good yield, which is why she wants to buy. Even better if she can get it for share for 2/3 x (250k + 20k)
What seems even more annoying Nick is the property is in the form of an inheritance, she gets 1/3 of it & wants to screw another family member because her 33.3% is not enough anymore, that's what greed can do, nasty piece of work,if it was me my main priority would be to not let her get away with it.
That's how I feel pumpy but I've got to make sure I don't cut my nose to spite my face, so to speak. She pleads poverty but I suspect she is much better off than me and my uncle could buy and sell me 100 times over.
The last email I received was from both of them and it seems like he may be pulling the strings: "my brother told me not to" [tell me about the refurb].
I always thought she would eventually want to buy the other 2/3 (based on what my dad told me) but I didn't expect her/them to go about it in such an underhand and devious manner
The last email I received was from both of them and it seems like he may be pulling the strings: "my brother told me not to" [tell me about the refurb].
I always thought she would eventually want to buy the other 2/3 (based on what my dad told me) but I didn't expect her/them to go about it in such an underhand and devious manner
Is there not normally a solicitor issued at the very start (when the will is made) to deal with all these things and to make sure all is done fairly?
Sorry I've just assumed the property was left in a will.
I don't think it went into that level of detail.
There was however, a "restriction/caution" placed on the property.
There was however, a "restriction/caution" placed on the property.
You know for certain she hasn't ripped you off by not giving you your full share of the rent in the past? Because she sounds like the type of person that would. There's a reason she fell out with your dad.
You need legal advice and you want out. Maybe there's a case for a forced sale contract dependent or even not.
fwiw there are Capital Gains Issues and if the plan is to move into the property herself she could possibly manage to avoid it on her share. If the property is actually worth £350k she is getting £183k out of the deal and you are getting £83k. You'd be a mug.
You need legal advice and you want out. Maybe there's a case for a forced sale contract dependent or even not.
fwiw there are Capital Gains Issues and if the plan is to move into the property herself she could possibly manage to avoid it on her share. If the property is actually worth £350k she is getting £183k out of the deal and you are getting £83k. You'd be a mug.
Some good points clydebank.
I am aware of the CGT implications - at the time of inheritance it was worth around £180k. The cost of the reburb can be deducted from any CGT liability (I think).
I am slightly concerned about the rent. I have never received a breakdown ie the difference between the gross and what I have received. When I said to my dad that I was disappointed and that I wanted to contact her for some more detail, he told me not to.
As far as the animosity between my dad and them; I don't know the ins and outs but knowing him the way I do, he would be far from blameless. He may have been provoked but he probably over reacted. Anyway, that's just conjecture.
The current value is probably £300 - 320k
I am aware of the CGT implications - at the time of inheritance it was worth around £180k. The cost of the reburb can be deducted from any CGT liability (I think).
I am slightly concerned about the rent. I have never received a breakdown ie the difference between the gross and what I have received. When I said to my dad that I was disappointed and that I wanted to contact her for some more detail, he told me not to.
As far as the animosity between my dad and them; I don't know the ins and outs but knowing him the way I do, he would be far from blameless. He may have been provoked but he probably over reacted. Anyway, that's just conjecture.
The current value is probably £300 - 320k
(yes, you can deduct quite a lot of 'costs' before paying CGT)
you cannot be forced into selling your share irrespective of how much pressure is applied.
Unless you can agree on a price tell her your not selling, and let her dwell on it. She'll probably then see sense and make you a more reasonable offer
Unless you can agree on a price tell her your not selling, and let her dwell on it. She'll probably then see sense and make you a more reasonable offer
A women with a probable grudge " seeing sense " 
I wish you luck with that.
I wish you luck with that.
Emden, that was my way of thinking but I have to weigh that up against paying my share of the refurb costs AND her making life difficult for me in the future. ie Never having another chance to sell and being messed around with the rent and be excluded from decisions similar to those which I have already been
that's why i say cut your losses & stress , but haggle he for as much as possible for your 1/3rd as she obv wants it .. 100k sounds nice in cash 
Mate, you've got two options.
Roll over and accept the offer to avoid the aggro. The easy option
Fight for your rightful share. Try and make her see reason.Not the easy option and certain to lead to some stress and hassle.
Only you can way up the pros and cons.
******
IMO only get a solicitor involved as a last resort
Roll over and accept the offer to avoid the aggro. The easy option
Fight for your rightful share. Try and make her see reason.Not the easy option and certain to lead to some stress and hassle.
Only you can way up the pros and cons.
******
IMO only get a solicitor involved as a last resort
"that's why i say cut your losses & stress , but haggle he for as much as possible for your 1/3rd as she obv wants it .. 100k sounds nice in cash"
I agree with Moonbeam.
I agree with Moonbeam.
London Yields are actually very low compared to other area's (midlands) etc
But you obv lose out on the possibility of capital gains .. but if she intends to just keep taking the rent for another 10 years etc you may do better on your own
Remember you'll only get 1/3rd of any gains anyway !
But you obv lose out on the possibility of capital gains .. but if she intends to just keep taking the rent for another 10 years etc you may do better on your own
Remember you'll only get 1/3rd of any gains anyway !
Go to justanswer.c0.uk and give us much detail as possible. It will cost in the region of £20 and you'll get a brief answer from a legal expert, which will let you know where you lie. At least then you can speak to your aunt with some authority initially, before getting lawyers properly involved.
Thanks guys.
I've put a thread up on legalbeagles and may give justanswer a go.
I'm also going to speak to a solicitor today. Should be able to have an initial conversation and make a decision about how to proceed without incurring any costs.
Moonbeam and Makybe - I agree but they won't sell today unless it's at the £250k price. I guess it's possible they may change their minds when I make my next move.
Someone on legalbeagles made this point:
I would imagine that your uncle who you say is already wealthy has probably seen the tax implications and knows the less he sells for the less of a tax burden which impacts both the money received from the sale and the perceived losses from undervaluing so the undervalued loss isn't quite as high as you imagine. If you are right about the undervaluation then your aunty could be inheriting a greater tax burden due to perceived larger profit she would make if she went on and sold hence the difference between what you feel she has made by undervalueing it could also be smaller than you imagine so a suggestion would be a complete financial analysis by somebody who understands could be worthwhile. You do not want a fight, bad blood and legal bills and find out you are barely better off further down the line. You could take a decent offer and get rid of the tax burden and then re-invest in a more tax efficient way knowing at the moment the tax burden could be rising at the same rate as the value.
I've put a thread up on legalbeagles and may give justanswer a go.
I'm also going to speak to a solicitor today. Should be able to have an initial conversation and make a decision about how to proceed without incurring any costs.
Moonbeam and Makybe - I agree but they won't sell today unless it's at the £250k price. I guess it's possible they may change their minds when I make my next move.
Someone on legalbeagles made this point:
I would imagine that your uncle who you say is already wealthy has probably seen the tax implications and knows the less he sells for the less of a tax burden which impacts both the money received from the sale and the perceived losses from undervaluing so the undervalued loss isn't quite as high as you imagine. If you are right about the undervaluation then your aunty could be inheriting a greater tax burden due to perceived larger profit she would make if she went on and sold hence the difference between what you feel she has made by undervalueing it could also be smaller than you imagine so a suggestion would be a complete financial analysis by somebody who understands could be worthwhile. You do not want a fight, bad blood and legal bills and find out you are barely better off further down the line. You could take a decent offer and get rid of the tax burden and then re-invest in a more tax efficient way knowing at the moment the tax burden could be rising at the same rate as the value.
The solicitor I spoke to said that she needs to send me copies of the receipts and invoices to support the £20k refurb expenditure.
I then need to get my own valuation and make a decision based on the numbers.
However, there's nothing I can do "in law". I did mention that she had only paid me rent up to March 2012 but maybe didn't emphasise that enough.
Goes to show that you can be stitched up legally and that you have to be careful who you trust
I then need to get my own valuation and make a decision based on the numbers.
However, there's nothing I can do "in law". I did mention that she had only paid me rent up to March 2012 but maybe didn't emphasise that enough.
Goes to show that you can be stitched up legally and that you have to be careful who you trust
I'm actually in the process of selling a property I own with my brother and sister and thankfully having no problems with them or the sale.......however the hassle with the property I'm buying is driving me round the bend.
If I never have to deal with another Estate agent or solicitor again !!!!
If I never have to deal with another Estate agent or solicitor again !!!!
Good luck T&C.
I suppose it's all good experience even though it's been a bad experience, if you see what I mean
I suppose it's all good experience even though it's been a bad experience, if you see what I mean
Thats what I keep telling myself, its just so frustrating. It should be so straight forward but having to rely on other people who seem either incompetant or bullishtters is driving me round the bend.
A slightly peripheral point perhaps, but you say you have only had your share of rent to April 2012. Do you know what the rent to April 2013 was? Presumably you will need to report it for Income Tax purposes, given it is received gross.
Fenway - sorry, just read back my post. It sounds a bit snotty - wasn't my intention. Cheers
...the good news is that what I do with my share is entirely up to me. Neither can she charge for 'project management'.
My aunt said (when I said I didn't want to sell): "Well, I'll have to charge you for my time, for project-managing the refurb. If you can't pay, I'll take it out of the rent until you've paid."
To me, that implied a not insignificant sum of money.
"You've had an interest-free loan", she said. Unbelievable.
Sorry to go on but wouldn't you be annoyed?
My aunt said (when I said I didn't want to sell): "Well, I'll have to charge you for my time, for project-managing the refurb. If you can't pay, I'll take it out of the rent until you've paid."
To me, that implied a not insignificant sum of money.
"You've had an interest-free loan", she said. Unbelievable.
Sorry to go on but wouldn't you be annoyed?
My aunt said (when I said I didn't want to sell): "Well, I'll have to charge you for my time, for project-managing the refurb. If you can't pay, I'll take it out of the rent until you've paid."
I just choked on my cheese and crackers reading that. Project managing doing up a little flat? I'd do that for my family for nowt.
I just choked on my cheese and crackers reading that. Project managing doing up a little flat? I'd do that for my family for nowt.
Your Aunt sounds like a complete and utter nutcase.
Yeah - you're not the first person on this thread to say that, Slippy.
As soon as I said didn't want to sell, she went off on a tirade. As I said in an earlier post, it was borderline hysteria.
Tbh, I've lost all respect for her. I thought she was an intelligent person. She's well educated with a degree from a top 6 university
As soon as I said didn't want to sell, she went off on a tirade. As I said in an earlier post, it was borderline hysteria.
Tbh, I've lost all respect for her. I thought she was an intelligent person. She's well educated with a degree from a top 6 university
It doesn't matter, Nick - they're all snakes with t!its in the long run. Family or not.
Family means everything to me, I'd give any of them my last dollar. That is a truly awful situation you are in, you have to fight fire with fire now though. You know that by now 
Perhaps you could start by demanding your share of the rental income for the period from April 2012 to date, together with a schedule setting out how the income is arrived at, and copies of invoices for expenditure incurred. Said funds to be received within a fortnight. And as you have waited for such a long time, you could also demand interest.
As a fireman I would urge caution regarding slippy's advice. Burning her house down will probably worsen the situation.
Fair enough Fenners and sound advice. But seriously, imagine your Aunt playing like this? I just cannot get my head around this at all and all for a few sovs.
The solicitor I spoke to told me to ask for copies of invoices supporting the refurb costs, which I have now done.
I haven't asked for a breakdown of the rent received in the past because I trusted her and took a soft line because she was doing all the admin
I haven't asked for a breakdown of the rent received in the past because I trusted her and took a soft line because she was doing all the admin
cruso - for several reasons I've taken an arm's length approach until now.
I will get my own valuation done but her current stance is that she won't sell other than at £250k
I will get my own valuation done but her current stance is that she won't sell other than at £250k
Sorry - I meant she won't BUY other than at 250k
See if she would sell at £250k, You are just as entitled as she is.
Get your own independent valuation, two even you can and then youll know how much shes trying to rip you off for .
Get your own independent valuation, two even you can and then youll know how much shes trying to rip you off for .
Beyond outrageous.
My Uncle is worth about 50 million, he has 3 children and quite a few grandkids, None of the siblings speak to each other now, they are all too busy fighting over his estate and he's not even dead yet. Ma's side is where the love is, they haven't got much but that doesn't matter, decent people all of them and that's what matters.
My Uncle is worth about 50 million, he has 3 children and quite a few grandkids, None of the siblings speak to each other now, they are all too busy fighting over his estate and he's not even dead yet. Ma's side is where the love is, they haven't got much but that doesn't matter, decent people all of them and that's what matters.
Not really. The 250k valuation was done sometime before May 2013 before a £20k refurb.
I estimate its current value to be £300 - 320K (it's all in the OP)
I estimate its current value to be £300 - 320K (it's all in the OP)
cruso - but yes, I'm as entitled to it as she is
Slippy - that's a lot! My aunt's brother (the owner of the other 1/3 is probably worth a few million but nothing like 50)
Slippy - that's a lot! My aunt's brother (the owner of the other 1/3 is probably worth a few million but nothing like 50)
Doesn't matter to me, he's my Godfather, I don't want anything from him. He always lived in the shadow of my wonderful Dad.
I emailed my aunt two and a half weeks ago asking for copies of invoices relating to the £20k refurb expenditure. I also asked for the name and address of the letting agent.
I've received nothing nor a reply to my email.
Seems slightly odd to me.
I suppose it's possible she didn't receive the message or the documents were lost in the post, so I sent a reminder yesterday.
I've received nothing nor a reply to my email.
Seems slightly odd to me.
I suppose it's possible she didn't receive the message or the documents were lost in the post, so I sent a reminder yesterday.
An update...
I still own the one-third share but my uncle sold his share to my aunt about three or four years ago for £100k.
From memory, I thought at the time that was a good deal for her. In any event, based on Zoopla valuations, the property is currently worth between £360 - £420k.
I recently emailed her chasing the Apr 2017 - Mar 2018 rent. She transferred the money a few days later and emailed me to say "it's less than in previous years as there was a void period".
I replied and asked to let me know how long the property was empty for. She said from mid Dec 2017 to mid Mar 2018.
I emailed her two days ago asking why it was empty for three months and await her reply. (The property is in a secluded cul-de-sac in a very nice area of north London, literally 2 mins walk from a tube and shops.)
I really do smell a rat, especially after the experience of the stunt she pulled five years ago.
I know some of you will say sell and move on but I don't want to until my missus and I are ready to move and in retrospect I'm very pleased I didn't in 2014.
I find it hard to believe it would take so long to let a property like this.
Any thoughts or advice would be very welcome. I have some of my own but some of the shrewdies on here may well think of something I have overlooked.
Thank you.
I still own the one-third share but my uncle sold his share to my aunt about three or four years ago for £100k.
From memory, I thought at the time that was a good deal for her. In any event, based on Zoopla valuations, the property is currently worth between £360 - £420k.
I recently emailed her chasing the Apr 2017 - Mar 2018 rent. She transferred the money a few days later and emailed me to say "it's less than in previous years as there was a void period".
I replied and asked to let me know how long the property was empty for. She said from mid Dec 2017 to mid Mar 2018.
I emailed her two days ago asking why it was empty for three months and await her reply. (The property is in a secluded cul-de-sac in a very nice area of north London, literally 2 mins walk from a tube and shops.)
I really do smell a rat, especially after the experience of the stunt she pulled five years ago.
I know some of you will say sell and move on but I don't want to until my missus and I are ready to move and in retrospect I'm very pleased I didn't in 2014.
I find it hard to believe it would take so long to let a property like this.
Any thoughts or advice would be very welcome. I have some of my own but some of the shrewdies on here may well think of something I have overlooked.
Thank you.
Find out the name of the letting agent and ask them for a breakdown of income and expenses on the property. Their contract might be with your aunt but if you can prove that you own a share of the property and mention you have reason to believe you might be being cheated they should be reasonable. They should have annual summaries going back to the start. Should easily clear up if she's being honest or not.
PorP - I have asked my aunt for these figures which she has provided for 2017/18.
I have the name of the agent but I haven't contacted them.
She surely wouldn't be stupid enough to say that the property was empty when there were tenants in residence which the agent was aware of.
What did occur to me was that maybe between tenancies, she had people in there off the record on an informal basis paying rent for three months.
Why would she allow the property to be unlet for three months when she is a 2/3 owner?
I have the name of the agent but I haven't contacted them.
She surely wouldn't be stupid enough to say that the property was empty when there were tenants in residence which the agent was aware of.
What did occur to me was that maybe between tenancies, she had people in there off the record on an informal basis paying rent for three months.
Why would she allow the property to be unlet for three months when she is a 2/3 owner?
I don't know how rabid London is but we had our property empty for a couple of months when we moved abroad before getting a tenant so it's entirely possible.
Just having read through the thread I can understand your reticence in directly asking for proof from her but also feeling a little disconnected with a vague sense of maybe being lied to. I reckon you can just bypass her completely and ask directly.
Just having read through the thread I can understand your reticence in directly asking for proof from her but also feeling a little disconnected with a vague sense of maybe being lied to. I reckon you can just bypass her completely and ask directly.
Porp,
She would have known well in advance when the tenancy was due to end so could have instructed the agent to market the property accordingly.
As for proof, she can't really prove a negative. Nor can I now prove that the property was occupied Jan - Mar 2018, if it was off the record.
She would have known well in advance when the tenancy was due to end so could have instructed the agent to market the property accordingly.
As for proof, she can't really prove a negative. Nor can I now prove that the property was occupied Jan - Mar 2018, if it was off the record.
I have emailed justanswer.co.uk
Seems like a good service. A qualified solicitor answers your question. You can ask follow up questions and have a back-and-forth conversation.
Cost me £32 but you only pay if you're totally satisfied with the answer.
I'll let you know how I get on and whether or not I'd recommend.
Seems like a good service. A qualified solicitor answers your question. You can ask follow up questions and have a back-and-forth conversation.
Cost me £32 but you only pay if you're totally satisfied with the answer.
I'll let you know how I get on and whether or not I'd recommend.
GL, Iawn, money matters and family members can cause a schism that is unbridgeable.
It can't be difficult to get a copy of the agents tax year summary of income and expenses.
I hope you are putting everything on your tax return each year , and also your Aunt ?
You will need full cost details + legals + improvement costs for your capital gains computation when you do eventually sell up.
I hope you are putting everything on your tax return each year , and also your Aunt ?
You will need full cost details + legals + improvement costs for your capital gains computation when you do eventually sell up.
JTG - thank you for commenting.
Yes, I agree but as I said previously, my concern is that she may have let the property, maybe to friends, on an informal basis ie not through the letting agent, between tenancies.
On the balance of probabilities, I suspect she has not done this but based on the way she's acted in the past, I can't rule out the possibility.
I have emailed her asking why it was empty for three months but am still awaiting her reply.
My tax affairs are in order. I have no way of knowing what she puts on her tax return.
Pump - incredible isn't it?
BTF - thank you.
Yes, I agree but as I said previously, my concern is that she may have let the property, maybe to friends, on an informal basis ie not through the letting agent, between tenancies.
On the balance of probabilities, I suspect she has not done this but based on the way she's acted in the past, I can't rule out the possibility.
I have emailed her asking why it was empty for three months but am still awaiting her reply.
My tax affairs are in order. I have no way of knowing what she puts on her tax return.
Pump - incredible isn't it?
BTF - thank you.
Why have you not got a Bank transfer set up for your part of the Rent ? When its paid your Portion is sent Auto
you would be able to Set up another account if you prefer the Lump sum annually ,plus you know when Summat was wrong
Straight away ??
That propery would be rented in a Month if Empty , as stated any decent letting agency would not allow 3 month gaps
Between Renters , Summat wrong somewhere
you would be able to Set up another account if you prefer the Lump sum annually ,plus you know when Summat was wrong
Straight away ??
That propery would be rented in a Month if Empty , as stated any decent letting agency would not allow 3 month gaps
Between Renters , Summat wrong somewhere
Ask for copies of the gas and electric bills for the 3 month empty period ?
..and the council tax bills ?... If property was empty then she would have paid the bills for this period - OK she could have still let "privately" but upping the stakes by telling porkies to council as well.
..and the council tax bills ?... If property was empty then she would have paid the bills for this period - OK she could have still let "privately" but upping the stakes by telling porkies to council as well.
JTG - She has deducted one-third of the council tax for the period from my share of the rent. Very good point about the utility bills. I will look in to this.
Nanny - she took it upon herself to transfer the rent to me annually. This was acceptable to me as she was handling all the admin.
She said she would pay me "when the tax return is sorted". Now that HMRC have extended the deadline until 31 Jan for online submissions (previously it was Oct 31 iirc), it means I don't receive the rent for April 2017 - March 18 until February 2019.
On the one hand, I can't believe she'd lie to me about the property being empty - not only is this a transgression of civil law but surely constitutes false accounting and fraud.
On the other, a three month void period seems unlikely unless she was having some sort of work done.
Maybe she's trying to make life difficult for me in the hope that I'll sell and walk away but surely not by penalising herself?
Nanny - she took it upon herself to transfer the rent to me annually. This was acceptable to me as she was handling all the admin.
She said she would pay me "when the tax return is sorted". Now that HMRC have extended the deadline until 31 Jan for online submissions (previously it was Oct 31 iirc), it means I don't receive the rent for April 2017 - March 18 until February 2019.
On the one hand, I can't believe she'd lie to me about the property being empty - not only is this a transgression of civil law but surely constitutes false accounting and fraud.
On the other, a three month void period seems unlikely unless she was having some sort of work done.
Maybe she's trying to make life difficult for me in the hope that I'll sell and walk away but surely not by penalising herself?
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