Envoi allen

elliot said theres a big chance envoi goes to supreme as not sure he wants a slog over 2.5 on bad going , or words to that effect

That’s correct foyleswar he has said that all along

Trainef said all options open, will walk the course on Saturday and decide, its on RP website.

Trainer

So clown on another thread thinks it’s disgusting and something needs to be done

Under the circumstances a very sensible decision, is fully effective at 2 miles and despite his likely presence in the Ballymore it has not served to scare horses away resulting in the Ballymore being the strongest out of these two races IMO with a few horses in it that look like thorough stayers who'd appreciate a right test at the trip.

what makes you say duffy that it looks the stronger of the 2 races when no horse has even won in graded company in the ballymore??

I think many of the main protagonists in the Supreme have negatives against them that they have to overcome, whereas many of the main protagonists behind EA in the Ballymore, SJ, TBG, TBB all look like strong contenders who have been highly impressive and may well have won graded races but haven't been given the chance, I think that the Supreme has at least a couple horses that are in the wrong race in AF and CH. I agree that it isn't the strongest purely on the formbook but many of the front runners haven't failed at a higher level they just haven't had the chance, but saying that, SJ did absolutely smash up MD who had been a previous graded winner himself didn't he.

The long standing favourite for the Supreme is only a listed winner isn't he but comparing the English and Irish in terms of measuring graded wins is a bit unfair as the Irish top novices would routinely have run in them, I believe that SJ and TBB would now be graded winners had they been Irish trained, they certainly would have run in them.

Could not agree more Duffy, you just saved me some time composing a post,much appreciated

still think this will run in the Ballymore.
If he was Supreme bound he would'nt be @4/1
on here.Looks like the weather may improve
a bit aswell.Took him on in the Supreme as well
as the two in the same ownership.
   GL ALL

After the run of Abacadabras in the Supreme this beast will be backed (already has) till thy kingdom come (again) tomorrow. The journos and tipsters are opposing him big time; their Irish Banker was Benie Des Dieux (apparently).

i may need sectioning after this but there may not be much if anything between the irish and english the supreme result may give a hint . envoi may be the 2nd coming but i am taking him on with 3 of the english at massive prices ,mossey fen stays and has decent form and is a game fooka and available at near 100/1 on here and 33s plus w/0 the fav ,son of camas also a massive price and hendo has some decent novices big price w/o fav and a win bet on the big breakaway ............potential big return for peanuts laid out .good luck all .

Well the form looks strong after yesterday for sure, but worth taking on with horses that may or may not be better than him.

Wow, Ireland 123 and the best GB horses beaten 20 lengths.

I took him on and 'lay' a very small amount to risk manage. But, make no mistake he's a very good horse the further the went.As such, the RSA next year, I'd think as the JLT might be too short; the Gold Cup in 2022 all being well.

got it wrong there but  if yer gonna get it wrong do it in style ,only a small outlay so minimal damage

Which is his most likely target, the JLT or RSA? He ran in the Neptune over 2m 5f, and his ultimate target is the Gold Cup.

I would guess the jlt and I wouldn’t completely rule out the champion hurdle.

I would lean strongly towards the RSA. The Gold Cup is definitely the long term aim so I can’t really see the point of going Marsh route.
If he was mine I’d go for a couple of 2.5m races and then RSA. Plenty of options at this early stage though.

Regarding the Champion hurdle I’m not so sure. He looked a little outpaced over the ballymore trip until his class and stamina kicked in. Not sure he’s speedy enough for CH unless the ground was very soft.

Using No More Heroes as a guide he ran in the Navan Hurdle over 2m 4f beating Shaneshill, then Albert Bartlett before taking in the RSA; Envoi Allen asserted and ran on after the last in the Neptune. Also, Elliot has Abacadabras who ran Shishkin close in the Supreme.

I'd think the RSA more likely with Abacadabras the JLT. But, I cannot see  Elliot will want Envoi Allen going for the Champion Hurdle given the bad experience with Samcro (I understand different ownership).

I would be surprised if both went novice chasing especially abracadabras,kicking king went arkle in his novice season as did war of attrition.

War of attrition started his chase career over 2 m 6f at Thurles kicking king 2 m at punchestown

Which horse would you say was the more impressive in the ballymore samcro or envoi Allen?

Both were impressive but Samcro showed much more natural speed and pace. EA powered home doing his best work at the end of the race.
There aren’t many horses that I can remember that going into the season could be favourite on the day in either Champion Hurdle or RSA
He’s a special horse that is for certain.

I think Envoi Allen (EA) is more likely for the RSA too the way he ran the Neptune, but the market is no guide either. However, for the Champion Hurdle only 2 horses I'd back at present eg Goshen (but very short at 9/2) and Shishkin (16/1/unlikely runner though).

I'm very surprised Abacadabras is only 8/1 for this. Is he a definite? Or could he go the JLT?

Thinking back hibore samcro was either at the front of the betting or close to it for those same two races.


Impossible the biggest thing against abracadabras going for the champion hurdle which should be his target is the owners ,they dipped there toes n with samcro and it didn’t work out,they may well wrongly insist on going chasing next season.

I think time will tell Envoi Allen beat a much stronger field than samcro I know the 2 nd and 3 rd went on to win grade ones at aintree and punchestown and the 5 th won the arkle.

It was Samcro your right. 4/1 JLT, 6/1 each for the Champion Hurdle and RSA.

I was pleased to see him win the jlt this year hopefully he can kick on from that.

Where do you think he’ll go next season ? Ryanair seems most likely to me.

You would think so hibore but the Savils at Christmas would be worth a try then take it from there.possibly start of in the grade 2 clonmel oil in mid November won by douvan this season monalee 3 rd,generally speaking it’s not that a competitive race then up to 3 mile at leopardstown then decide.

I think Samcro would be Ryanair bound too unless something untoward deprives Delta Work of a run in the Blue Riband. I think Samcro needs more experience over fences; jumping against seasoned fencers in the Gold Cup could be step-too-soon next season, I think.

Samcro was much shorter - between 4/1 and 6/1 here - for the JLT; 16/1 and more for the RSA (next season almost identical price fr either race). After the trashing from Faugheen at Limerick he went out to 20 and more here.

I very much doubt delta works target will influence any decision on samcro gigginstown can never be accused of avoiding each other.

dont do antepost generally
(mares rock and panic attack side last year)
but taken the 16/1 on here for the champion hurdle
following interesting discussion with farrier this morning

What did the farrier say to make you put a tenner on ?

Can't be sure, he had a mouthful of nails.

I stuck him in a little Yankee, Irish,
Envoi 11  CH.hdl.
Abacadabras 17 Arkle
Latest exhibition 17 R.S.A.
Sire due Berlais 16  Stayers.
£1 e.w. accer & 50p Yankee gets me 90 grand.
As I said last year, might as well dream here as in bed.

Sorry for pausing the the thread, my betting brain had been suffering the equivalent of " Blue Balls " since ****. happened, I've since had some relief.
I believe that if the same ,or more likely, a naturally improved Envoi rocks up, he will win any race in which he's entered. Its up to us, as punters, to find, decide or just plain guess which race that will be.

Or take 2/1 for him to win any race. At the moment the market is indicating The JLT as the most likely destination with The RSA 2nd best; Supreme and possibly Champion Hurdle the most unlikely.

2/1, where's the fun in that,Impy ?
Anyway, don't want to tie up my fiver at that price 'till March.

I believe that if the same ,or more likely, a naturally improved Envoi rocks up, he will win any race in which he's entered.....  yep thats the impression I get as well

Irish agreeing with someone.... :-0

I think you find he’s agreeing with himself.

* you’ll

Hey,just a minute, I'm not Irish, well I am, but you know what I mean.

not a market i usually play but for envoi allen fans, slysbet are doing on their nh request a bet specials .........clan des obeux to win this years king george and envoi allen to win any race at the 2021 festival 14/1 ......just saying like .

envoi could make his chasing debut tommorow at down royal  .

Would he be odds-on for Cheltenham after today? Or will he bomb big time? If so, back to the drawing board...Champion Hurdle perhaps.

did as expected jumped well nice intro

Hes rather good this horse.

he looks very good and may be a class apart in the novice division but his price dont interest me one bit ,the ballymore form has taken some hits what with the big getaway.big breakaway beaten at short odds ,looking through the ballymore not a lot barring the winner has set the world alight ,shan blue has won a couple of ordinary chases . envoi could be the next arkle /kauto but i will be looking for something at a big price  each way have my eye on one but it has several options arkle rsa and this so will hold fire for now .

Im taking him on with Protektorat, was very impressed with him lto.
Was hoping Chantry House would be one, but he needs further imo, but his stablemate who won yesterday may be interesting at the odds.

Budd just out of interest why do you think chantry house wants further? I disagree tbh

Just watching the horse harry.
Yesterday to my eye hes going quicker than he wants to, and his jumping suffers because of that.
He was entered over 3m last week,so looks like they are thinking along the same lines.
Not sure why they went 2 and a half in the end, maybe the ground?

Ive covered for RSA, think thats where he runs at the festival.

I had a few quid on him last year for supreme at good odds but just not sure I like him now...might be wrong and that ground at Cheltenham was horrific again so can excuse him that run...early days but I don’t think he’s a 3 miler but not sure he’s a top class 2m4f horse...he’s maybe dare I say a bit tripless

It could be that run came to soon as well yesterday..I’ll be able to make a better judgment next time hopefully but I don’t know why but I don’t particularly like him that ascot run didn’t particularly float my boat so happy just to watch him at the moment but he isn’t my cup of tea at this stage as an individual

The trainer has been in and out this season so maybe I’m being to harsh but flinteur sacre was a bitter disappointment as well...I’ll just have to see moving forwards from a betting point of view with his horses

Well hes had 2 novice chase runs, and won 1, so its not as if hes been poor.
I will reserve judgement until i see a couple more runs, and over 3m.

in terms of cheltenham festival races his runs have been poor,his only rival fell on debut just as he looked like he was coming under pressure and the weekends run was very poor whichever way you look at it

Appears difficult to handle. Plenty of negatives in his favour, spring horse ? 4 runner tactical race ? Ground ? Henderson's running poor anyway ?

Easy to disregard the odd run this time of year as long as there is a bit of improvement race before festival ?

Ok, in terms of beating EA in the Marsh Chase, he has been poor, certainly Saturday.

lets see how he gets on when stepped up to 3m.

Irish is correct, easy to disregard the odd run, and hes also right that he has to improve.
I am thinking the step up will see improvement.

Not running until January.

any opinions on allart ? i put him up for the arkle and backed him for the marsh before his novice win last week ,hendo seems a bit wary of bumping into envoi ,he may be a class apart but as the saying goes  never be afraid of one horse ,he may be pegasuss but test him and see what happens ffs .

he never was running until punchestown in january sageform i saw all the experts in the post the other day saying how much they were looking forward to seeing him over christmas.

good to see they are putting plenty of homework in for there opinions.

I was just passing on a press report, not suggesting there was anything wrong.

i knew that sageform

runs next sunday elliott confirming the marsh is the only race he is been considered for .

1/2 on sunday against Asterion Forlonge and friends. But, the ground is heavy at the moment. He's 'evens' for the main gig. Surely value if heavy ground is no impediment.

if im reading it right think envoi al  will have to give asterion f 11 pound with the grade 1 penalty ,wont be easy imo he could have a race on his hands if both line up .

i hope he keeps out of the way of that lunatic.

I'd forgotten about the penalty he'll have to carry. And, on heavy ground a watching brief.

Jim

well at least he cant cause any problems up ok.

pest even as a loose horse.