valseur lido

Wouldn't argue with that. WM suggested Gold Cup a couple of weeks ago so he had obviously seen the improvement at home. Looked like being a big step up on his form until he came down.

WM said he thought the run booked his ticket for GC but it will be up to connections who we know can be a little unpredictable

couldn't agree more, if they both line up i'll be on the one coopers not riding! providing vvm doesn't show up.

exactly, just isn't top class!

it shows when some other jocks ride the same horses when he's injured or suspended, I mean how he judged the pace in that race yesterday on a suspect stayer was poor.

It's interesting that Valseur Lidos best performances have both been with Walsh in the saddle. Having said that I'm certainly treating yesterday's form at Leopardstown with a degree of caution.

I've said it before on another thread and for the life of me cannot remember where but i do not rate Ruby Walsh one bit on producing horses at fences and it was clearly evident on VL yesterday!

Ok the horse obviously knuckled on landing and one could argue that it wasn't the pilots fault, but i beg to differ. How many other jockeys would let their mounts just pop the last fence given the amount he reckoned he had left under the locker more on that later. (Matt Chapman and texts)

It did look like he was absolutely tanking didn't it? I am of the opinion any other jockey would have got that horse over that fence, now whether it would have won is another matter entirely though i have read and watched reviews on both sides and i am inclined to think that both any other professional jockey would have raced VL into that last fence putting daylight between him and RTR at the last and would have got over it with no problems. I am obviously in the would have won camp.

This mornings Sunday forum was very interesting as Matt Chapman apparently texted RW and got an answer during one of the commercial breaks (how true it actually happened you decide lol) saying that RW thought that he had loads left, this was after the biggest most ridiculous statement to ever come out of a jockeys mouth (Andrew Thornton) that only tired horses fall! Jeez, seriously? So horses don't fall at first second or the third? LOL to that! But seriously, if MC really did txt RW and who's to say that he didn't as it was after that ridiculous statement from AH, i think the answer that was given answers everything imo, in that had he raced VL into the fence as i think 90% of professionals would do in a grade one to quickly put daylight between the horse to my left who was clearly tiring and the horse further away that eventually won therefore giving the horse momentum to get over the fence and land appropriately.

I think he would therefore have won and won well. I underestimated VL and have backed him for the CGC nrnb and believe me it wont be the only bet i place on this horse! Ok not many horses win a fez race after a fall, but i seriously wouldn't put it past this beast. Especially if they go off too fast in the CGC as they did yesterdays RGC, as for the winner, im not clock watcher but my opinion is he didn't quicken at all, ran past tiring horses at the same pace as he was running at jumping 4 from home. I am interested in him for the Grand National though!

You better hope its goes Ryanair STS, when was last horse to win Gold Cup off the back of 2 consective falls? At least you will get free bet.

sts - you are right AT did say only tired horse fall - as he is one of the brightest and most articulate jockeys i think you have to assume he realises that horses that fall at the first are not tired - i suspect he assumed MC was bright enough to realise that he of course meant at the end of a race. If anybody else had heard what AT said other than MC they would have given him the benefit of doubt and sought clarification, because it was MC then he wanted to get a cheap laugh instead. The bloke spends his life in the school playground, looks like nobody came to pick him up.

i think the point AT made re rw was very valid - it is very hard with ruby to know what his horses have under the bonnet - and he is right imo that very often they find a lot less than expected - also different jockeys have different strengths and weaknesses - i would be fascinated to see falls/unseats/mistakes to rides ratio for jockeys - i think rw is a brilliant judge of pace and tactically shrewd,i might be wrong but i wouldnt expect him to figure strongly on a falls to rides table especially when taking into consideration the calibre of horses he is riding - that said i would imagine his ratio would look better for PN than wpm - but again may be wrong.

sts - i know and you have no choice but to use gut feeling as to the best of my knowledge the stats dont exist - shame  james willoughby isnt a jumps fan - considering getting a horse over a hurdle or fence is of paramount importance it is really quite incredible that we have no way of knowing (at least i dont think we do???) how effective each jockey is at doing this.

It's a game of opinions and mine is RW did nothing wrong on VL he sat still and didn't ask for a big leap at the last, then knuckled on landing, pure bad luck. I'm all so of the opinion in jumps racing it's very game thinking what would have happened? VL jumps the last would he have won??? God only knows, a cope out I admit but how many times have you seen a horse going so well get beaten.

It makes me laugh I hear people say Don Cossack would have won the KG if he'd stood up? No one knows, he may have, he may not. If Vautour had fell at the second last how many people would have thought he would have won? But like I say it's all opinions and everyone's entitled to theirs and in mine RW has no peer as a jockey, we all have jockeys that we don't like for one reason or another but honestly if PN could have anyone as stable jockey who do you think he'd have?

I can think quite a few last hurdle/fence falls/mistakes with Ruby on.  Annie Power when tanking in the Mares, Kauto smacked the last fence a few times earlier in his career (the L'Ami race springs to mind), Faugheen smacked the last the other day, thr famous Killultagh Vic race a couple of weeks ago, Master Minded did a really bad one in the Game Spirit in 2010 etc.

The thing is though, I can only remember all these because he was on high profile horses, mostly in high profile races.  Other jockeys may have a much worse record, but because they don't get as much media attention and are not usually on odds on favs like Ruby, they go under the radar.

No denying though, some of Rubys have been prone to the odd last fence mistake.  Whether that was down to him or the horse, I haven't got a scooby.

No-one compares to deckie when it comes to last fence dithering, more times than not he sits and waits for his horse to make its own mind up.

Would never worry about Walsh on a horse I'd backed myself.

Oh i do duffy, when its grade one material not so much but when its run of the mill Monday afternoon maiden hdl that just so happens to be filthy each way (cos those types of markets are the only times i ever play in those low grade affairs) i defo look twice, especially if it might be a hold up performer.

Just like wellchief says also though, he aint the best horseman at producing horses to fences when they meet them on the wrong stride, or get in too close. Not by a long chalk!

I am certain there are stats out there somewhere. My hunch is pocket talking of course i've backed a fair few of RW's horses down the years, as a huge Kauto fan i used to love him but recently over last couple years since hes moved over the pond, av started to question him just a little bit more. The amount of times hes on a hold up and not got them into the race (but tried to but all too late)

No have to say, not my biggest fan of a jockey no more anyways! In a grade one i want to see a horse that is supposedly motoring being fired into the last couple to put daylight between him and opponents. After all if they are truly motoring then they don't do much if any damage and if they are truly tired it is then we find out just as much as the pilot.

My idea of abled horsemen are the likes of Daryl Jacob, Dicky johnson, Paddy Brennan, i no hes injured and will miss the fez but one of the most coolest you will ever see on a horse through a race stand up P.Carberry!

Barry G, he should be champ imo! I like quite a few in fact! Dont think mr BG DJ PB or PC would have got UDS on the deck personally! (note i left out Dicky can't believe i included him tbh)

wellchief you are right i think its because they are high profile perhaps they stick in your mind - just off the top of my head last obstaclers i can think of fatcatinthehat, briar hil,  boston bob, champagne fever, and that one in the triumph that cost me a fortune in place money , obviously other high profile ones not last fencers like uds x2, mikael d, djakadam, twist magic. arctic fire, abbyssial  - if i can think of these just off the top of my head others can and more i suspect - reality is he may have less falls per ride and less last fence falls than most or nearly all - who knows - i think he is a special jockey but i can see why people may think this is where he is a little less special.

Milton I can see how you made the mistake wrt Boston Bob but thats why this thread exists because their is a perception out there. Boston Bobs fall cost me an awful lot of money and I feel he would have won with Ruby in the saddle but of course we can never be certain of that.

... ffs there

Know would have to agree with stj there, perfect example, McCoy on kauto star

Ffs nichols lol

arkle - he can be the best overall jockey without being the best at all aspects - and with complete respect to everyone - i would rather have independent data helping me decide than anecdotal evidence from either fans or detractors - and that absolutely includes my own anecdotal data - which my RSA mistake evidences. The fact there are very knowledgeable people on here that see this completely differently proves to me that there is room for more data to tell us either way. My guess is if you are a big fan of RW you will defend his faller record even though you dont know what it is or how on a rate basis it stacks up against others and if you are either not a fan or are but think this is his weakish point, you will criticise it without knowing how it stacks up.