Key to the horse is a break between races, his right handed runs were without a break so inconclusive.  I can remember after he ran KS to a nose in the Betfair (still think he won!) forcing myself to wait until after the inevitable blob in the king George before backing in the CGC, then steaming in as soon as it was confirmed he went straight there without another run...

Re Last Instalment Mark Howard is one of his biggest fans and here's what he had to say about him:

http://www.mhpublications.co.uk/racing_diary.php?page=3

Wednesday 15th February 2012

"Horses inevitably pick up injuries but it was sickening to hear that Last Instalment had incurred a tendon injury following his win at Leopardstown on Sunday and will miss the rest of the season. Philip Fenton's gelding had looked a natural over fences and was set to play a significant part in next month's RSA Chase at Cheltenham. Perhaps two races on drying ground have done the damage but Fenton is now left with the likelihood that the seven year old will never fulfil his undoubted potential. The former top amateur rider has endured wretched luck during the last twelve months with his other stable star Dunguib also currently on the sidelines. Last Instalment was a class act who I am convinced would have developed into a Gold Cup contender in twelve months time. Let's hope he returns one day but I suspect he will be a shadow of his former self. It is bitterly disappointing."

I love Flemenstar and have to be with him for the Gold Cup, breeding suggests he will stay the trip. Has a fantastic cruising speed, and jumps quite literally for fun.

Loves the soft ground though, will be like irish good to firm by Friday in a Gold Cup. Padorama looked a beast in Ireland, ended up injured running in a Gold Cup.

I feel Kautos race ending at the 8th fence ruined the race. Very hard to rate the race then with only 2 real horses left. It requires at least 2 other horses to rate properly and solidly imo. We've no idea exactly how Denman ran as we had no Kauto there to rate the race along side. IC was a wonderful winner. I still feel like an utter fool letting 16/1 post Befair Chase go unbacked. We live and learn.

For me, and I just rewatched it yesterday. The 2009 Gold Cup with Denman, Kauto and Neptune thundering down the hill in a line, that symbolises this golden generation more than any. 2 Gold Cup winners and the classiest Grad National winner in decades in a line. I want to get a photo of that for my wall.

I think Kautos 2009 win is the easiest to rate, 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th all ending in order of their official ratings. His 13l romp could've been more if he went for home earlier. In 2009 he was sensational, sure at 9 he was at his peak.


Anyway, that's a a different era now. Time for Sir Des Champs to get Ireland an over due win

His sire says otherwise. I have Pandorama fresh in my mind. It's be good ground by friday at Chelts. Which is like Irish good to firm.

Flemenstar has plenty still to prove. Price is unbackable. Like the horse though. Will be great seeing him and Sir Des Champs battle out the John Durkan next year.

CVB - Nice to see your thoughts on the 2009 Gold Cup. I thought Kauto was magnificent that day and when you look back on the field it was a classy race (even though there are still a lot of knockers). The King George in 2009 was probably his finest performance. I'm an unashamed Kauto fan, but that year was his pomp.

Changing the subject, what would be a backable price for Flemenstar iyo given the doubts about pedigree/stamina?

So you're one of the knockers Giddy. What could Kauto have done better that day? He travelled and jumped superbly and asserted to win easily. He hammered a field including Denman, Neptune Collonges, Exotic Dancer, Madison du Berlais and Albertas Run, all of whom were very high class (or better) at the time. I absolutely refute that he had no viable opposition - he had high class opponents and he raced them out of sight.

Perhaps you can explain something to me - why do people constanly knock the stars of this sport? In recent years we've had a wealth of talent in Kauto, Denman, Big Buck's and others but I'm constantly reading about how they aren't that good or how they beat nothing. What's wrong with celebrating our oustanding champions? Why do horses get blamed for the quality of their opposition, even when they eviscerate them? Horse racing at its best is a maginficent sport and we'd do well to remember that more often.

Agree Giddy, I have Kauto Star as the highest rated horse of what was a golden generation but at Kempton rather than in either of his CGCs.  Denman was better than KS at Cheltenham and a couple of pounds better still on the wide galloping track at Newbury,but IC is a real Cheltenham horse and at his very best there and IMO better than either of them!

Great horses and no knocking from me,but my view will always be that Denmans perfprmance in his Gold Cup was the most impressive in that era.

Giddy - sorry to rant at you, it wasn't warranted.

However, I still disagree with the substance of your arguement. How many horses would you like to make excuses for in that race? Kauto jumped brilliantly throughout, travelled and won very easily - he didn't scrape home he won by 13 l going away and not hard driven. Denman did have a bad preparation but he was the defending champion and he was well enough to win the Hennessey eight months later carrying top weight. Neptune was injured during the race as you say. However, being, and staying, fit is one of the requirements of the sport. You say Exotic dancer didn't jump/travel - but again that's a fundamental requirement of the sport. Perhaps he couldn't live with the pace and jumping of his rivals? Albertas had won the RSA and come second in the King George in the preceeding 12 months which suggests that he was (a) very good and (b) a stayer. I agree Madison du Berlais was not as good as the other horses named ovber his career but he was good enough to win the Hennessey, rearranged Aon, and the Aintree Bowl that season, where he beat Denman and Exotic Dancer among others. Overall, the 2009 Gold Cup was a top class field and they were spanked by Kauto Star.

All that said, at no point have I compared Kauto in 2009 with Denman in 08 or IC in 10. My point is/was simply that Kauto's 2009 win is knocked, in my view unfairly. All 3 races featured special performances from the winners, all awesome in their way (and all quite different in style). I also think Kauto was better at Kemptom than Cheltenham (and his 2009 King George was his finest performance). As CVB says it was a golden era of staying chasers.

Absolutely lads,golden era indeed, and i could not find fault with any of the performances from Kauto,IC and Denman,and it does come down to personal opinion.I love horses that do it from the front like Denman did,wining the race as early as he did,but that in no way detracts from the others-just what i prefer.

Denman is a fooking GOD

I miss him

Stront Thanks for your reply and apology which wasn't necessary as no offence was taken but its appreciated anyway.Kauto Star/Denman! In nearly 40 years of following this game,I have never known of 2 horses to cause so much argument,debate,conversation and emotion. As CV quite rightly states,and he and I have clashed previously on this debate,that we all have our favourites and i'm firmly in the Denman camp

To be fair re Neptunes,he was injured during that Gold Cup and was sidelined for 18 months but the way Kauto went about his business I dont think he would have got near him
Denman however had been a sick horse all through the summer and just wasn't fit enough to do himself justice. His prep race was at kemptom which is a totally unsuitable course for him,and he looked a shadow of his former self. He was duly thrashed by Madison Du Berlais with Albertas Run virtually a distance behind behind Denman in third which I think substanciates by Albertas argument.
I thought after that run he would be put away to wait for next season but PCN, or connections, or both wanted to run in the GC,and Nicholls freely admitted that it would be an uphill battle to get him ready in time.
He simply was not fit enough in 2009,and it was the only time Kauto finished in front of him of there 4 clashes.When Denman retired and PCN was interviewed about  Denmans achievements he praised his run against Kauto say
ing, I dont know how he got so so close to Kauto because he was knowhere near 100% fit.

Maybe its me getting emotional now, and I will concede that Kauto was overall the better racehorse,but for my money Denman was the superior stayer

Getting back to the OP can I jump a year and stick up Boston Bob for 2014!

While I agree with your general point about KS's longevity CVB, his rating this season of 183 is complete and utter garbage. 175 is more like it, would be in line with Long Run's consistent running to 174.  If you haven't realised by now that the current offical handicapper is a complete buffoon, it is time you did!

Kautos longetivity is something to behold and exceptionally,the same as kauto himself.If your happy to rate Kauto through a line with Exoctic,how do you rate Denman 2008 when he beat Exotic a distance +?

There are two interesting things in what people have said to me...

As people say its all down to opinion, I'm IC all the way, love the horse to bits and its my opinion round Cheltenham and Haydock he is the best out of the three. The fact he was unable to compete regularly was a physical issue and therefore I do not believe makes him a worse horse, does definitely make it a better training performance though :).

Also, IC won the only GC where all 3 ran fit, i dont believe anyone who says Kauto's falling was anything but a reaction to a fast pace that he had not been asked to cope with before round Cheltenham. This therefore meant he was not able to compete. Denman imo ran to his best and this is shown by the 30ish lengths back to Mon Mome.

Just my opinion and im not belittling Kauto nor Denmans achievements.

What is amazing and a lot of people have not noticed is , Kauto Star has been at the top or close to it for a long time now. He is French bred, was a time we all thought that only the traditional Irish of British Jumper bred horses had long careers, as Long Run is finding out now. Long Run may come back, but to do it for another 5 seasons i doubt it. Maybe the French are breeding different now as what they used to, 2 Grand National winners in recent times Mon Mome and Neptune Collanges. Gold Cup winners Kauto Star and Long Run, saying that i would love to see Sir Des Champs win the Gold Cup. S hit he is French bred.

Bluebird - I reckon they'll try to step Al Ferof up to this.

Paddy - quite so - he was on the go as a 3yo (in March 2003!). Winning a Grade 1 in 7 consecutive years is a truly extraordinary feat and training performance. Given he's had 3 serious injuries during his career the horse must be hard as nails.

wheres the value for next years gold cup?sir des champs 6/1 bobs worth 8/1 long run 10/1 flemenstar 12/1 first lieutenant 16/1 grands crus 20/1 hunt ball 25/1 last instalment 25/1 plus giant bolster burton port time for rupert silv conti and others!