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And Binocular wins :-( lol, have backed the Zark myself , tbh I'd be looking simply to trade out to get a free bet if poss, I'm not a huge fan of the opinion that HF is totally unbeatable, I'm convinced if Zark is near it going up the hill it will battle well, not to mention Binocular whose performance when winning the CH IMHO is at least equal to HFs win, it's run LTO also seems to confirm it is in excellent form. Free bet for me, take your value now IMHO .
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It's a good point about Binocuar had talked myself out of him being a contender but after last performance he needs to be considered! Really do think Zarkandar is under rated as you said if he don't get outpaced as they turn for home I think he can battle it out with Binocular & HF. Just can't decide how to play it but appreciate your opinion.
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Lay it off - that's the whole point of betfair!!
You've found yourself in the fortuntae position of backing well ante post and now is the time to take advantage and have a free ride. Also, 5yr olds have an horrific record in the CH! |
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The Fly wins oh yeah he does. but Zark and Binoc be behind for any mistakes.
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think Zarkander looks more of a stayer its the Fly all the way.
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I know there is a dedicated CH thread but anyways............. IMHO Zarkandar just might be a little bit special, for one so inexperienced it has shown glimpses of potential , it did something a little special by winning at Aintree after Cheltenham IMHO , AND again IMHO in the triumph and in the betfair once it hit the front there was only one winner, in addition in the betfair remember this was quite an ask fto, despite it's inexperience it won and for me won impressively, it certainly WILL improve and tbh HF at circa evens is no price, yes it will take a special 5yo to break the 5yo negative stat........is the Zark the one?, maybe :-), hell even Tom Segal in the weekender says the Zark is his favourite jumps horse atm, AND he was impressed by the manner of its win in the betfair, glad he's waking up to what I've been saying for months :-)
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It didn't take an impressive 5yo to beat the 5yo stat, it took an experienced one (Katchit). As far as I'm concerned there is no negative 5yo stat just a negative inexperienced horses stat.
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I think the 2013 Champion might be excellent because of all the good 5 yos knocking around this season and a few decent novices coming through.
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It didn't take an impressive 5yo to beat the 5yo stat, it took an experienced one (Katchit). As far as I'm concerned there is no negative 5yo stat just a negative inexperienced horses stat.
Fair if moot point ;-), katchit as a lone beacon of support for the experience theory can't be regarded as a definitive and objective example of proof positive, then again that's the nature of this puzzle , I've read your theory on this and you make a beguiling argument which I wouldn't disagree with, whatever this imperceptible effect is the Zark would need to overcome it, one facet it has that I feel sure will stand it in good stead is its battling qualities AND a very impressive gear right where it counts at the business end of a race, surely a big positive for Cheltenham |
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^are you Nick Luck in disguise?
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Eastayrshire, yes it is moot on Zarkandar but far from moot when considering the race as a whole. Minimum 15 starts under rules, any age in last 2 decades. Only the exceptional Hardy Eustace with 15 starts, every other winner 17+. Wish I'd worked it out 10 years ago and not 2 years ago...
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I know the stats say he can't win but stats are there to be broken & the stats are based on previous 5yo and think we hae all seen Zarkandar is no ordinary 5yo & the form of last years triumph shows last years race was the best triumph for years! Think Zarkandar is a class above & could make a mockery of stats let's not forget Zarkandar is still unbeaten over hurdles & to win fto in betfair shows he is battled hardened & give serve it up 2 HF & Binocular. Think it has to be form over stats!!
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The question is Nick, how good was that form? Zarkander ran to 160 ish which leaves him a stone to find with Hurricane Fly. he was sick after the race. Did that affect him on the Betfair? Will he get over it? Will he improve for the run? How much? Lots and lots of uncertainties.
Even if they were rated closely, i'd back the battle hardened champion over the near-novice. |
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*in the Betfair
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still think triumph hurdle winners make better stayers than speedsters.the fly to have too many gears for me think Ruby thinks so too.
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In Ruby we trust and he trusts the fly
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The question is Nick, how good was that form? Zarkander ran to 160 ish which leaves him a stone to find with Hurricane Fly. he was sick after the race. Did that affect him on the Betfair? Will he get over it? Will he improve for the run? How much? Lots and lots of uncertainties.
Even if they were rated closely, i'd back the battle hardened champion over the near-novice. Sadly for us Zark lovers this makes absolute sense and is difficult to rationally oppose, but yknow when you just get that feeling about a horse?.......lol , seriously tho strontiums appraisal is spot on, def worrying about the cough etc too. |
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I think Hurricane Fly will win
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Yeah he probably does still have a stone to find with HF but firstly he was ill for the betfair which would have made a difference, secondly the went a slow untrue pace which didn't suit him as he can definitely stay further than 16f so a fast pace with the likes of overturn it will make it a bigger test of stamina & thirdly & most importantly fto after 10 months off he will definitely benefit massively from the run & can improve enough to challenge HF but the big question is will it be enough! I for one can't wait to find out!!
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Sounds good Nick. Or the effort of running first time out with a snotty nose might mean he bounces next time...
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Here...no-one has mentioned the possibility of 'bounce' factor....just sayin'
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LOLOL....beat me to it theives...well done
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Imagine if he doen't make it at all.....then all the top 5yo's would be missing !!
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As I've said on another thread I reckon they might benefit from it - another year older, stronger and more experienced, plus HF will be 9 in 2013.
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True strontium but needless to say their presence would have added greatly to this years race
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Yes. It's a possible silver lining, not a desirable outcome.
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Food for thought.....What if Darlan had stood up in the Betfair and not impeded Get Me Out of Here. Possible that Zarkandar could have only finished third to a novice (who was only receiving 5lb). Couple that with the way he travelled, his illness and well... peoples expectations in the CH could be quite different....
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lay it off its got no chance
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The "bounce" factor is an oft used term which for me means nothing, it's an unprovable hypotheses that has caught some people's imagination, it kinda sounds plausible, sloppy thinking IMHO, it may exist it may not so factoring that in to any appraisals is folly imho.
As for Darlan, dear oh dear , it takes a HUGE leap of faith to extrapolate the outcome described , fgs no way can anyone tell how it would have fared,furthermore Zark beat GMOOH fair and square, which reminds me that it's beating of GMOOH confirms that it can beat shores we know has performed well at Cheltenham , there are way too many positive indicators about Zark for it to be misinterpretation IMHO , and don't be fooled by jockeys opinions, yes sometimes they know but here's the news,OFTEN they don't , if Zark wins look over to the best mate stand and you'll see me cartwheeling down the steps :-), not that I have a huge amount on it £15 @ 11 to be precise. |
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Surely now its in to 7s you can Lay for a big freeroll?
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I'd sit tight on the bet. Clearly you were happy to lose £100 otherwise you wouldn't of placed the bet, so don't let the fact you can trade off force your hand!
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In general I agree with "dwm767" and it really depends on your financial position. If you want to trade for a freeroll then you can do that but you have clearly made a good bet so if you don't need the money let it ride.
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which reminds me that it's beating of GMOOH confirms that it can beat shores we know has performed well at Cheltenham
eastayrshire???? Clearly Zarkandar is very talented, the question is can he win the CH. You talk about many positive indicators. In terms of winning this years CH there are many negatives; 1. 5yo's have a terrible record...fact 2. Whether you believe it or not it takes time for horses to get over a hard race after a long layoff...so I personally wouldn't dismiss this possibility out of hand especially as he has been unwell. 3. Looks like he possibly needs further and his chances are dependant on a fast run race. 4. Judged on previous performances he may well still get outpaced at a vital stage of the race. 5. Clearly not ideal to be coughing and on antibiotics so close to the big day. 6. Formwise must improve alot on what he has done to date IMO If it was me I'd lay it back |
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which reminds me that it's beating of GMOOH confirms that it can beat shores we know has performed well at Cheltenham
Yes GMOOH has been narrowly beaten twice at Cheltenham , on your other points yes the 5yo stat is concerning however the Montjeu stat didn't stop HF , coughing is for sure a concern too, Im not so hot on your other points which surely comprise too much conjecture and guesswork to be factored in seriously. |
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I think laying off for a free bet is the smart call. Personally believe Hurricane Fly and Binocular have much better chances than Zark, for all that he is improving and exciting.
The other issue if you are considering laying off is that Zark has looked like being beaten in his last three races and traded at big odds in running. I very much doubt that he will tank through the Champion. His only chance is staying on past the speedier types, and I doubt he will be able to outstay the Fly (or have the speed to get to Binocular). Either way, he looks unlikely to trade shorter in the run unless he wins, so if you are thinking of covering your stake I'd suggest pre-race is the time to do it. |
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@easta If I understand you correctly I'm struggling to see how it is relevant that Zark has beaten a horse with Cheltenham form (GMOOH) at Newbury !
It is not conjecture or guesswork that Zark was outpaced during the Triumph and at Newbury. I would be very surprised if he could get away with this in a CH. Clearly he also has to improve alot on what he has done to date win a CH. |
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Yes I concede that Zark beating GMOOH isn't a huge plus as regards winning the CH, GMOOH however so nearly won the SN and has proven tenacity, fair point tho tbh I was merely adding as many positives as I could :-), however as for Zark being outpaced , erm it won yeah?, AND IMHO if Zark is with HF going up the hill I'm thinking Zark will prevail, to be fair though it might not get near HF. One thing I AM sure of though is there is a huge amount of hyperbole surrounding HF, it may or may not be warranted, but you don't get an edge by following mainstream opinion, just sayin.........
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whats your opinion on Binos chance eastayrshire?
I liked his last run but still unsure. I,m also a Zark fan to be honest... |
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I know the winner its 100% HF.
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