there should be a 2m4f championship race

No thank you.

no need to thank me

cant have 3 championship races, will dilute the other 2.

Could end up like ireland, with 5-7 runner championship races.

long way between 2 and 3 miles.

What about a 1 mile 4 hurdle as well?

ever try comedy?

I agree, but it would a Grade 2 for me.

*be

It'll be an utter disgrace if they add a 2m4f hurdle. It'll weaken the Champion Hurdle

surely the point is that horses should have the opportunity of running at their optimum distances.

I pretty much agree. I suspect I'm in a (small?) minority, but I like the Ryanair Chase - in fact I find it one of the more interesting races of the Festival. I think many people who don't like intermediate length races do so only because it makes antepost betting harder as they don't know where horses will run. That said, the case for a 2m 4 hurdle is weaker than for the chase as the longer distance hurdle division is so much weaker - but a longer race at Cheltenham might strengthen it. I'd question whether such a race would weaken the Champion Hurdle too much as by definition the status quo means horses who would want to run over 2m 4 are presently having to run half a mile over or under their optimum trip.

In any case, a 2m 4f Graded hurdle is the obvious candidate for the 28th race at the Festival.

^ by "longer distance hurdle division" I mean over 2 m - sorry not to be clear.

Terrible idea imo - the 2m4f horses already have the Aintree hurdle to aim at.

but they could take in both, oscar whiskey almost def would have done the double...

Really hope they dont go down this route, i mean i dont think im exaggerating when you could say from this years champion hurdle, oscar whiskey, thousand stars, dunguib and khyber kym would all have been possibles for a 2mile 4 hurdle leaving a 7 runner champion hurdle. Then you would get most of the 3 milers who are fed up of being beaten by big bucks leaving the staying division even more weaker. As unclepuncle says theyve got there race at aintree.

I think it's a safe assumption they will introduce a 28th race in the next couple of years. If not a 2m 4 graded hurdle, what do people think it should be?

A 2m maiden hurdle for unraced mares

That's about all that's left at this stage!

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is another mares race now Robert Waley Cohen is chairman at Cheltenham.

I'm quite attracted to the idea of a veterans chase - give some Festival old stagers another shot at glory. Presumably would have to be a Listed (or G3) handicap.

we need a championship 2m 2f race for the horses that cant quite see out 2m 4f and are to slow for the champion aswell.

sure i suppose you think every race ever run should be either 2 miles or 3.

think the ryanair should be a grade 2, have 2 1/2 mile hurdle if you want but also a grade 2. Grade 1s should go back to champion hdl, champion chase, stayers,gold cup, and for novices supreme novices ,arkle, sun alliance hurdle & chase (or whatever theyre called these days)and triumph. All the grade 1s added in recent years will always be grade 2s at best in my blinkered, old fashioned, like it as it was, 3days blah

Totally agree.
grade 1's should be as they are now.
If a 2m4f hurdle is to appear at the festival then should not be grade 1.If a horse is possibly better at further than 2m then its up to connections to decide if the horse has the class to win a CH as horses like Istabraq and Hardy, who won novices over 2m5,did.If so fine run it,if not run it at further,their are enough races for it,inc one at Aintree a few weeks later,plus they have the option of the WH if it stays further.
Really dont need the CH being vulnerable to being a lesser race,that would be bl00dy awful imo.

Worst idea I have heard for a while .

I just noticed that the new British Champions Day at Ascot clashes with the Showcase meeting at Cheltenham - now that's a bad idea.

It will weaken the champion hurdle, no matter what grade race it is. Horses like thousands stars and oscar whiskey would have run in it that's the 3rd and 4th home in the champion hurdle. What's wrong with the melling and Aintree hurdle for middle distances?

people raised similar concerns about the ryanair chase, and i do agree to an extent. i realise the gold cup is longer and the ryanair can be a stepping stone for some like imperial commander but the fact remains the same, it weakens the main event. the reason i think it should be considered, is because horses having to go one extreme or another ie 2 miles or three is not an option for so many. solwhit i think wouldnt go world hurdling if there was a 2m4f event (i realise he now might go chasing), the likes of khyber kim who i think doesnt stay 2 miles would go for it,thousand stars, oscar whiskey, the list goes on. i know oscar whiskey and thousand stars both ran well in the ch, and there would have been hounds filling the 4th 5th and 6th places only for them, but this year had v few good horses in the champion and im sure that wont continue for long. if a two and a half mile horse wins the champion hurdle then its a very poor show, and surely the main point worth noting is that every horse should be given an opportunity to race at their optimum distance, its the case on the flat and it lower level nh, why should the top level over jumps be any diff? im hardly suggesting a championship race/g2 for every 2 furlong interval between 2 and 3 miles, just a half mile extra/less than the two existing champ races.

The Ryanair is different, the Champion Chase and Gold Cup have proper prestige, also the skills required to run a break neck pace for 2 miles is in itself is different than a slower run weaker 2m5f race, which again is not the Gold Cup nor the stamina test that requires. Also jumping fences takes longer than jumping hurdles, so the speed a horse can jump at is a factor more.

When you get to hurdling, the Champion Hurdle is the only real prestige race. The stayers no matter what people want it to be is never going to be up there with the other 3 championship races. So many horses who compete in it go chasing, it's a stepping stone for many. So the race itself doesn't have a season after season similar field to compete.

So by adding a 2m4f race you'll weaken the stayers, while also weaken the Champion hurdle field. Then if you have a dominant champion in one or both divisions you'll have horses avoiding both and going for the 2m4f race.

There's too many factors that will make this completely different to the Ryanair. Far more hurdlers can compete at 2m and 2m4 than chasers that can compete at 2m and 2m5f around chelts.

At the end of the day, if you're a 2m4f horse you go to the Aintree Hurdle like Al Eile, it's a grade 1 and a feature race on Grand National day.

So i'll ask again - if there is to be a 28th race, which seems highly likely, what should it be?

strot, they did a survey and most want a veterans race. how fookin boring

I'd like a G2 mares chase.

reve - I did say earlier in the thread "I'm quite attracted to the idea of a veterans chase - give some Festival old stagers another shot at glory." [;)]

CVB - with Robert Waley Cohen in charge now there's a fair chance that's what you'll get. Sounds like it could be a horribly weak race though (although having a high profile race to aim for is bound to push up the class of that division over time).

We have season end mares hurdles and chases over here and they are very competitive races.

Also a question for reve, if the champion hurdle was run over 2m4f would the first four home have been any different? No, it wouldn't imv.

A2m4f hurdle would only serve to let people dodge the champion hurdle for a better chance of a winner.

strot, is just the way i am, im not interested in vintage cars either, modern all the way
cvb, id say your probably right, theyd have been in the same order but i think this year was diff in that there wereso few live contenders, even menorah was considered a live contender despite proving very little, much of what he beat were novices hyped. i think in future years there will be much more horses going into the race with a chance, look at 2010? where solwhit, go native etc etc i think there were a good few with a chance. obviously the champion hurdle will be much more prestigious than any 2 and a half mile race ever will be, i think that prestigious nature in itself will bring the cream of the crop into it.

It'll just serve to take good horses from the world hurdle and champion hurdle to the middle distance. It's a bad idea and we really don't need the race at cheltenham, as I said we have the aintree hurdle.

i see your point, the world hurdle though couldnt possibly be weaker...

CV - I think there's also a trend to make Cheltenham the pinnacle for everything. No one would say 2m hurlders have the Fighting Fifth and the Christmas hurdle so the Champion Hurldle isn't that important, or he won the Betfair Chase and the Lexus so the Gold Cup doesn't matter. Why should that be different for 2m 4f hurdlers?

Because hurdlers are different to chasers, middle distance in chasing is harder to do for 2m chasers, an extra 5f is a lot extra distance. But most hurdlers can do 2m4f. So if you want to avoid a champion like Hurricane Fly you simply run in the 2m4f race and we have no competition for Fly.

The Champion Chase and Gold Cup have prestige, so if your horse can run in one you'd want to go for it.

The World Hurdle is not a prestige race, no matter what anyone hopes to think. The Champion Hurdle is the only prestige race for hurdlers. So if we add in a 2m4f race, which is easy for most 2m hurdlers to run in and many 3m hurdlers to run in, you're going to get very diluted races. It's a simple undeniable fact that will happen.

If your horse is best a 2m4f tough fcuking luck. Speed is what we celebrate in hurdlers, your horse lacks the speed to mix it with the best in the Champion Hurdle. There is a reason the World Hurdle isn't one of the 3 prestige races.

ok, that's a persuasive arguement.

Yep it is,and i for one cannot argue with that.

I agree, a terrible idea, unfortunately that won't stop it from happening. Novice hurdlers and now  the novice chasers have the three distances to chose from. The Ryan Air gives chasers the three  distance options, It's only a matter of time before hurdlers have this choice.

As much as I love the festival, the quality is getting spread thinner and thinner. I've often wondered what the management at Aintree makes of all these new races we have seen over the past few years, it affects their festival too.

^Aintree and Chetenham are owned by the same firm and between them they generate 75% of that firm's revenue. They aren't in competition.

I agree with not having the 2m4 champion hurdle event, but how come there is a 2m4 novice hurdle race? I think it will end up as the 28th race.

The veterans chase is the best idea by far.

I can't despite trying think of anything that isn't already there. Just move the Gold Cup to the Saturday and the Midlands National to the Sunday!! Or move the Midlands national to Cheltenham as the 28th race

revedesivola
18 Apr 11 17:57 Joined: 14 Sep 10 | Topic/replies: 8,986 | Blogger: revedesivola's blog
but they could take in both, oscar whiskey almost def would have done the double...
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Are You Trying To Say Oscar Whiskey Would Have Beat Hurricane Fly if it Was Over 2 and a Half Miles???

no, i was saying if there was a 2 and a half miler at chelts, oscar whiskey would most likely have won it, along with the race he won at aintree

CVB,  Have read your posts on this thread and there seems to be a lot of opinion being presented as fact. 

Here's a proper fact - we have a 'championship' race at 2 1/2m for chasers, novice chasers and novice hurdlers.  The gap is for hurdlers. 

If the champion chase and gold cup can survive with the ryanair, the arkle and rsa can survive with the golden miller and the supreme and spa can survive with the neptune, I think we are on safe ground thinking the champion hurdle and world hurdle would survive this new race. 

I always thought folk, if they weren't in uproar at an extra race, wanted a quality event and not another handicap.  This is the only genuine 'championship' race left to programme imo.

From a totally selfish point of view I'm totally against a 2m4f Championship race, especially if it is a grade2.

One of my favourite races at the festival is the Coral Cup. It is inevitable that this race would be seriously effected as many of the top weights would go for the Championship race instead. What is atm a premier handicap would be relegated to a run of the mill race

ttt

The chairman of Ffos Las racecourse believes there should be a championship race over that distance for hurdlers.

"He's the best two-and-a-half-mile horse in the country. I will stand up and say that," he said.

"It's a shame there isn't a two-and-a-half-mile race for him at Cheltenham. I think there should be as there are plenty of horses around who could go for it."

DO NOT MOVE THE GOLD CUP TO A SATURDAY!!

There seems to be more and more of these veteran chases happening, I'd be suprised if that isn't the next race added (if any)

Yeah let's dilute the meeting even more.

Why not have a 2m 6f championship race for 10-y-o and upwards that haven't won more than 2 races and were born between Feb and May and are trained North of the Trent.
I'm sure there will be plenty entered who "deserve" to win a race at the Festival.

Not sure it would have that much affect on the CH or the WH,and im all for another championship race.
The proper 2 mile top horses will still be in the CH,,and the stayers would still be in the 3m race.
Aintree might not like it though!!

Which race would Istabraq,Hardy Eustace,Brave Inca,Royal Gait,French Hollow,Aonoch etc etc etc have gone for iyo ?

If you think it wouldn't dilute the Champion and World Hurdles you are living in Cloud Cuckoo Land.

Thats down to trainers knowing if their horse is capable of winning a CHurdle.The first 3 you mention would still have gone CH imo,not sure about the others.Of course you might get less runners but the cream would still be there.
The difference in prize money would get the best horses with a slight doubt stll in the CH imo.

If there was a championship hurdle race over 2m 4f last year's World Hurdle would have been dire. Voler, Thousand Stars and Oscar Whisky would all have gone for the 2m 4f option.

Not for me. It would give trainers another race to deceive.

yep,thats the point,one of them would probably have won a good competitive race,and BB would still have won the WH,difference is it would have been the same no contest as his 2 previous wins.

Maybe we should have a 2m4f championship race,and change the WH to a grade 2 stayers hurdle.

Give that some thought.

If we must have a 28th race the OPs suggestion seems the most logical but not for me,the quality of the meeting outside the Championship races has been stretched to breaking point already.

Realistically keeping the meeting to the same 4 days is the best the traditionalists can expect cos we aint ever going back to the 3 days which for me was all quality..............Im middle-aged what do you expect !

Yeh on the 5th day of the meeting

Go back to 3 days and get rid of half the shoite races ffs

I agree that a lot of the new races are desperate (especially the two-and-a-half-mile conditional handicap), but wouldn't mind seeing the addition of a two-and-a-half-mile championship hurdle.

I am not sure I agree with this 'dilution' of the other championship races argument. Obviously fewer classy horses run in the Queen Mother and Gold Cups now we have the Ryanair, so in technical terms, they have been diluted. But I'd argue that since its inception, there hasn't been a single winner that would have won either of the other two contests. I think it's harsh to hate the Ryanair because it means we see fewer horses rated in the 160s run in the other two; if you owned a horse of that quality you would be forced into running in a race that either places too much emphasis on speed or too much on stamina, and that's a pretty unappealing thought. It's not as though we've had many bad Queen Mothers or Gold Cups in that period either...

What we don't need is a 20-odd runner handicap full of plot jobs ridden by conditionals, rated within a few pounds of each other soon after the best race of the National Hunt season...

u cant put extra races in just because a horse either hasn't got the speed for 2m or the speed for 3m. so if horses are staying on strongly at the end of the gold cup then should ther be a 4m grade 1 aswell?

Would need to be 5 or 6 mile really,i would love to no the best plodder around.

3 mile bumper needed.

im not feeling all these new races, but i would like to see a legends/veterens race, not a race for betting or prize money just to see our old favourites again at the home of NH racing

It's hard to see why there should be one for fences and not hurdles, but in my opinion there should be nether at Cheltenham. Aintree was conceived as the 2.5 m Championships for both hurdles and fences and it should have been left that way.

I don't think it affects the staying races much, but lots of horses have been the best at 2.5 and 2m. Finian's Rainbow and Sizing Europe fought out a great battle inthe QM last year, but either of them could surely have won the Ryanair.  I'm not opposed to the Ryanair being run, there have been some great races, but it should be a grade 2 imho. The winner cannot truly be said to be 2.5m champion most years, and conversely it dilutes the Queen mother. You shouldn't get to be called Champion 2 milers or 2.5 miler without beating Sizing Europe or Finian's Rainbow, or maybe Cue Card. There are lots of good horses can go both distances. The Aintree hurdle often takes most of its runners from the Champion Hurdle, and that's fine, that's how it should be.

The problem comes when you get a dominant horse in one or both of the other divisions because it gives connections of other horses somewhere to run to. This year is a classic example, you've got Cue Card trying to be turned into a 3 miler, FR won't even be defending his crown, and that's before we even get to the flemenstar comedy show.

I'm sure its prob on here already but, the mare's race is a total joke. Open that up.

BJG     03 Feb 13 22:46 
Go back to 3 days and get rid of half the shoite races ffs


Exactly,the festival has been diluted enough