Cheltenham Festival
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09 Apr 11
02:02
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14 Sep 10
me thinks... oscar whiskey is the prime example of a horse that needs it, i think it should have been added long ago... are all 2 and a half mile horses expected to run in handicaps, at the wrong distances or wait for aintree?
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Replies: 68
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No thank you.
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no need to thank me
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cant have 3 championship races, will dilute the other 2.
Could end up like ireland, with 5-7 runner championship races. |
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long way between 2 and 3 miles.
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What about a 1 mile 4 hurdle as well?
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ever try comedy?
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I agree, but it would a Grade 2 for me.
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*be
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It'll be an utter disgrace if they add a 2m4f hurdle. It'll weaken the Champion Hurdle
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surely the point is that horses should have the opportunity of running at their optimum distances.
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I pretty much agree. I suspect I'm in a (small?) minority, but I like the Ryanair Chase - in fact I find it one of the more interesting races of the Festival. I think many people who don't like intermediate length races do so only because it makes antepost betting harder as they don't know where horses will run. That said, the case for a 2m 4 hurdle is weaker than for the chase as the longer distance hurdle division is so much weaker - but a longer race at Cheltenham might strengthen it. I'd question whether such a race would weaken the Champion Hurdle too much as by definition the status quo means horses who would want to run over 2m 4 are presently having to run half a mile over or under their optimum trip.
In any case, a 2m 4f Graded hurdle is the obvious candidate for the 28th race at the Festival. |
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^ by "longer distance hurdle division" I mean over 2 m - sorry not to be clear.
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Terrible idea imo - the 2m4f horses already have the Aintree hurdle to aim at.
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but they could take in both, oscar whiskey almost def would have done the double...
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Really hope they dont go down this route, i mean i dont think im exaggerating when you could say from this years champion hurdle, oscar whiskey, thousand stars, dunguib and khyber kym would all have been possibles for a 2mile 4 hurdle leaving a 7 runner champion hurdle. Then you would get most of the 3 milers who are fed up of being beaten by big bucks leaving the staying division even more weaker. As unclepuncle says theyve got there race at aintree.
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I think it's a safe assumption they will introduce a 28th race in the next couple of years. If not a 2m 4 graded hurdle, what do people think it should be?
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A 2m maiden hurdle for unraced mares
That's about all that's left at this stage! |
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I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is another mares race now Robert Waley Cohen is chairman at Cheltenham.
I'm quite attracted to the idea of a veterans chase - give some Festival old stagers another shot at glory. Presumably would have to be a Listed (or G3) handicap. |
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we need a championship 2m 2f race for the horses that cant quite see out 2m 4f and are to slow for the champion aswell.
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sure i suppose you think every race ever run should be either 2 miles or 3.
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think the ryanair should be a grade 2, have 2 1/2 mile hurdle if you want but also a grade 2. Grade 1s should go back to champion hdl, champion chase, stayers,gold cup, and for novices supreme novices ,arkle, sun alliance hurdle & chase (or whatever theyre called these days)and triumph. All the grade 1s added in recent years will always be grade 2s at best in my blinkered, old fashioned, like it as it was, 3days blah
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Totally agree.
grade 1's should be as they are now. If a 2m4f hurdle is to appear at the festival then should not be grade 1.If a horse is possibly better at further than 2m then its up to connections to decide if the horse has the class to win a CH as horses like Istabraq and Hardy, who won novices over 2m5,did.If so fine run it,if not run it at further,their are enough races for it,inc one at Aintree a few weeks later,plus they have the option of the WH if it stays further. Really dont need the CH being vulnerable to being a lesser race,that would be bl00dy awful imo. |
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Worst idea I have heard for a while .
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I just noticed that the new British Champions Day at Ascot clashes with the Showcase meeting at Cheltenham - now that's a bad idea.
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It will weaken the champion hurdle, no matter what grade race it is. Horses like thousands stars and oscar whiskey would have run in it that's the 3rd and 4th home in the champion hurdle. What's wrong with the melling and Aintree hurdle for middle distances?
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people raised similar concerns about the ryanair chase, and i do agree to an extent. i realise the gold cup is longer and the ryanair can be a stepping stone for some like imperial commander but the fact remains the same, it weakens the main event. the reason i think it should be considered, is because horses having to go one extreme or another ie 2 miles or three is not an option for so many. solwhit i think wouldnt go world hurdling if there was a 2m4f event (i realise he now might go chasing), the likes of khyber kim who i think doesnt stay 2 miles would go for it,thousand stars, oscar whiskey, the list goes on. i know oscar whiskey and thousand stars both ran well in the ch, and there would have been hounds filling the 4th 5th and 6th places only for them, but this year had v few good horses in the champion and im sure that wont continue for long. if a two and a half mile horse wins the champion hurdle then its a very poor show, and surely the main point worth noting is that every horse should be given an opportunity to race at their optimum distance, its the case on the flat and it lower level nh, why should the top level over jumps be any diff? im hardly suggesting a championship race/g2 for every 2 furlong interval between 2 and 3 miles, just a half mile extra/less than the two existing champ races.
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The Ryanair is different, the Champion Chase and Gold Cup have proper prestige, also the skills required to run a break neck pace for 2 miles is in itself is different than a slower run weaker 2m5f race, which again is not the Gold Cup nor the stamina test that requires. Also jumping fences takes longer than jumping hurdles, so the speed a horse can jump at is a factor more.
When you get to hurdling, the Champion Hurdle is the only real prestige race. The stayers no matter what people want it to be is never going to be up there with the other 3 championship races. So many horses who compete in it go chasing, it's a stepping stone for many. So the race itself doesn't have a season after season similar field to compete. So by adding a 2m4f race you'll weaken the stayers, while also weaken the Champion hurdle field. Then if you have a dominant champion in one or both divisions you'll have horses avoiding both and going for the 2m4f race. There's too many factors that will make this completely different to the Ryanair. Far more hurdlers can compete at 2m and 2m4 than chasers that can compete at 2m and 2m5f around chelts. At the end of the day, if you're a 2m4f horse you go to the Aintree Hurdle like Al Eile, it's a grade 1 and a feature race on Grand National day. |
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So i'll ask again - if there is to be a 28th race, which seems highly likely, what should it be?
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strot, they did a survey and most want a veterans race. how fookin boring
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I'd like a G2 mares chase.
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reve - I did say earlier in the thread "I'm quite attracted to the idea of a veterans chase - give some Festival old stagers another shot at glory." [;)]
CVB - with Robert Waley Cohen in charge now there's a fair chance that's what you'll get. Sounds like it could be a horribly weak race though (although having a high profile race to aim for is bound to push up the class of that division over time). |
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We have season end mares hurdles and chases over here and they are very competitive races.
Also a question for reve, if the champion hurdle was run over 2m4f would the first four home have been any different? No, it wouldn't imv. A2m4f hurdle would only serve to let people dodge the champion hurdle for a better chance of a winner. |
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strot, is just the way i am, im not interested in vintage cars either, modern all the way
cvb, id say your probably right, theyd have been in the same order but i think this year was diff in that there wereso few live contenders, even menorah was considered a live contender despite proving very little, much of what he beat were novices hyped. i think in future years there will be much more horses going into the race with a chance, look at 2010? where solwhit, go native etc etc i think there were a good few with a chance. obviously the champion hurdle will be much more prestigious than any 2 and a half mile race ever will be, i think that prestigious nature in itself will bring the cream of the crop into it. |
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It'll just serve to take good horses from the world hurdle and champion hurdle to the middle distance. It's a bad idea and we really don't need the race at cheltenham, as I said we have the aintree hurdle.
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i see your point, the world hurdle though couldnt possibly be weaker...
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CV - I think there's also a trend to make Cheltenham the pinnacle for everything. No one would say 2m hurlders have the Fighting Fifth and the Christmas hurdle so the Champion Hurldle isn't that important, or he won the Betfair Chase and the Lexus so the Gold Cup doesn't matter. Why should that be different for 2m 4f hurdlers?
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Because hurdlers are different to chasers, middle distance in chasing is harder to do for 2m chasers, an extra 5f is a lot extra distance. But most hurdlers can do 2m4f. So if you want to avoid a champion like Hurricane Fly you simply run in the 2m4f race and we have no competition for Fly.
The Champion Chase and Gold Cup have prestige, so if your horse can run in one you'd want to go for it. The World Hurdle is not a prestige race, no matter what anyone hopes to think. The Champion Hurdle is the only prestige race for hurdlers. So if we add in a 2m4f race, which is easy for most 2m hurdlers to run in and many 3m hurdlers to run in, you're going to get very diluted races. It's a simple undeniable fact that will happen. If your horse is best a 2m4f tough fcuking luck. Speed is what we celebrate in hurdlers, your horse lacks the speed to mix it with the best in the Champion Hurdle. There is a reason the World Hurdle isn't one of the 3 prestige races. |
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ok, that's a persuasive arguement.
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Yep it is,and i for one cannot argue with that.
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