bit pizzed i think
BREEDING

If a horse is flat bred then it has been bred in order to run on the flat and the same with jumps. As someone posted earlier 99% of stallions are flat horses, but the ones who stay further on the flat tend to be branded as 'jumps sires'. I point you towards http://www.coolmore.com/roster.php?list=national_hunt
- these are obviously all flat horses, some like Scorpion who is a Coronation Cup winner. The mare naturally has a crucial influence, as does the damsire. Kempes for example is out of a Royal Academy (champion sprinter) mare by Intikhab (miler), who is known to produce precocious 2yo. Kempes has clearly turned into a decent staying jumper, but there would have to be serious question marks regarding his effectiveness in a race such as the Gold Cup on breeding grounds (I suspect no horse with such a precocious pedigree has ever even placed in a Gold Cup). Whereas, yes Kauto Star's sire finished fifth in the arc, but his dam side is far more stamina laden. Therefore, he was bred for the purpose of jumping.

It's all pretty much straightforward really.

there are obviously exceptions to some cases, hence the running of flat horses over jumps in the first place[:)]

what are you bred for reve? cleaning my toilet?

what makes you think that just because they are thoroughbred theyare bred for the flat?

247, comedy is obviously more youre thing than breeding. hilarious

know even

247lol Date Joined: 16 Feb 06
Add contact | Send message When: 14 Feb 11 00:44

ffs,zilzal,kauto was fkin rated 190 going into the king george,ffs,fkin read,its since dropped 16 lb to 174.
cruise d,you couldnt read the handicap if it came up and smacked you in the head ,ffs,denman was rated 182 going into the hennessy,it finished ahead of three 156 rated horses,so it appears he ran up to somewhere near his best,as the first 2 who were 15 lengths ahead(approx),in receipt of 26 lb & 25 lb were obviously better than their marks of 156&157

Some horses carry wait differently to others. Reading the form of the Henessey in respect of Denman's 3rd is tricky at best. He has shown in the past and is the type of horse that can carry weight far better than others and so reading a handicap off the back of what Denman achieved in the race could be flawed. Only one of the top 6 finishers in the Henessey has raced since, The Tother One finished half a length behind Denman and went on to get beat 45 lenghts by Neptunes Collonges in the Argento. It's too ealy to read the form in such a black and White fashion as you have 247. The handicapper has to evaluate every race on their individual merit, we don't we can look at the bigger picture.

Off the back of their last 2 runs there isn't much between DH and Kempes, thats hardly a revelation and there is no need to start going off on one.  I've been reading handicaps and doing OK at the game for a fair while. What's with your tone and attitude anyway? Too many top decks?

Can't belive he's 16/1 he wouldn't get the trip in a horse box. This is Chetneham not Leapordstown and a slow gallop through lose ground.

Even if he did get the trip he'd have to improve more than a stone and you can bet AP would ride Denman if he had the choice before he'd ride him.

I'd rather be backing Pandorama at 20/1 and taking a chance on him acting on good ground as he's clearly a much more talented horse who will stay.

Good on anyone who took 50/1. I'd be laying him, taking the money and running if I had.

sorry that was supposed to say "anybody care to mention a decent horse that kempes beat, that would entitle him to win a gold cup??

First off Cruise Kauto Star is a freak. The reason I say that is you don't get many of him to the pound and Kempes would have to be
in the same mould. No as good but as versatile and I think he's already reached te limit of his versatilty.

You said it yourself he showed good speed against Hurricane Fly and that is the biggest telltale sign of all.

Horses who are very quick over two miles unless they are Dester Orchid or Kauto Star very seldom stay extreme distances.

You won't get any race more extreme than the Gold Cup run at pace especially when something like Denman suddenly injects 5mp on to the speed you were already finding hard.

It's those sudden inmjections of pace and the undualtions that find out the non stayers very very quickly and why so many very good horses get tailed off.


Starluck is a classic example of a horse who 2 miles plus, he can quicken at the nd but put him in race where the pace is strong (Overturn) and add an injection of pace (Binocular) and he'll fold like a pack of cards because he doesn't really stay in top class company.


Kempes isn't bred to get 3 miles but he does in races like we just saw but it's lake adding 2 miles on to that when you take that massive leap into the gold cup.

Pandorma unlike Kempes IMO has the stamp of a Gold Cup horse. He's got a very high cruising speed and a remarkable turn of foot for a horse who looks every bit a stayer.

Why would you worry about his preperation? he's won 9 out of his 11 races which I'd say took a fair bit of getting right.

If Noel Meade has one good enough, like Pandorama or Realt Dubh they very seldom let you down.

Rondetto much respect for getting your well explained opinion across without just bleeting drivel like some others may do. I mentioned Kauto not as a comparsion to any other horse but more about how and why jockies choose to ride any given horse rightly or wrongly.

I agree with all that you say about the GC and maybe I am taking what I see in Kempes too literally. But with so much doubt in my mind about IC, Kauto and Denman at this stage I'm happy to back Kempes antepost pretty sure that If he turns up I'll end up with around a 10/1 free bet at the odds I have backed him at and then decide whether to play on any other horse when I know more about how they have preped and what they look like in the paddock etc. I really believe Kempes is a live outsider and all the things you mention are likely to either see him pulled up after 2 and a half miles or will bring out the best in him and could see him challenging. I think it'll be the latter but you scenario is perfectly plausable.

id def bet wierd al before kempes. wud love a match bet

im stillbacking diamond harry

Rozel just likes to wind up the idiots on here,as i do myself,sometimes.
Not sure why i post on these forums and get into stupid arguements,to let off steam i think,but can be quite funny sometimes,well myself and rozel think so.
But also like to pass on a bit of knowledge,which is difficult when your dealing with clueless numnuts.
Fact,kauoto star WAS(being the operative word here)a freak,hes not running to his old level anymore,and wont win the gold cup.
Diamond harry if you at anytime decide to watch all videos of him,does i think like Newbury better than Cheltenham.
If you look at Denmans form in relation to the weights he has carried,ide say his rating assessments are pretty accurate,after all,the guys that do the ratngs are professionals,unlike yourself.
Assessing ratings is not enough to decipher a horses chance though,you have to conclude as to wether he/she will act on the track and the going(very important).
So when you use all that information and come up withan idea,get back to me.
Do i have any idea what will win the gold cup?yes,but im not putting hours of work in to post in on here for free,well not just yet anyway(filling the boots).
But 168 rated horses dont win gold cups nowdays,think the last 3 were rated 174,176&177,so harrys 6/7lb shy.
Did i say Kempes would win?no,what i actually said earlier,was i would rather back one going the right way(Kempes)than 2 going the wrong way,kind of makes sense.
Have i backed Kempes?no,but he may carry a few sheckles as a saver,it wins in the STYLE of a good horse,but 18.5 isnt much value for something that APPARENTLY has to much to find on the book.
But sticking the nose up at J P mcmanus owned horses isnt very clever,after all the guys had some 30 odd winners at Cheltenham i do believe,so he does tend to buy the right ones,and thats not luck by the way.
Its pointless saying things like Weird al will win(doesnt stay),or diamond harry will win(only rated 168)if you dont assess the chances of the others in detail.
Ive just given you a few solid reasons why those wont win,we'll get into that breeding thing another time[;)]

In my best Harry Hill singing voice....

Most arrogant poster of the week!!!...

By: 247lol Date Joined: 16 Feb 06
Add contact | Send message When: 15 Feb 11 02:34

Do i have any idea what will win the gold cup?yes,but im not putting hours of work in to post in on here for free,well not just yet anyway(filling the boots).

Gutted for all DH backers. Nothing worse than not gettin a run for your money.

Just thought I'd drag this back to the first page for a spell. Kempes is now best priced 12/1 with the bookies. That's about what I thought/hoped he would start the day at so it's looking like a value bet at the moment. I have also backed Pandorama now at 20/1 after the news about his last piece of work the other day. I expect Pandorama's price to shorten less until the off unless we get some news about the weather being bad, a good ground GC could see Kempes go off at something silly like 8/1.