Sires in Form June

I think everybody appreciates the effort you put into this,but it doesn`t seem to tie-up with the RP stats,where even on numbers a few stayers are doing OK. Apart from a couple who won over a mile I think the rest in your table were sprinters. Very depressing.

My stats are UK only as I repeat every month. Galileo and Montjeu get a lot of wins in Ireland and also lead on money won. RP don't produce any stats for UK wins only as far as I know. The RP breeding stats are often several days out of date.

Fair enough. It`s not just Galileo and Montjeu ( who doesn`t get that many winners by this time of year) but Dansili is another one who is absent from your tables.
I`m really not having a go. I am just trying to sort out some apparent discepancies for my own interest.

Dansili:   33 total to June 30, 6 in June.
Galileo 26, 6 in June
Montjeu 26, 11 in June. (presumably due to more softish ground?)
Dubawi 26, 7 in June.
Refuse to Bend 22, 6 in June but 4 in July already so 26 today.

Any more staying sires you would expect to be doing well? I chose 35 as an arbitrary cut off for the month. Only 20% of flat races are over more than a mile so it is not so surprising that sires that get winners from 5-8 furlongs will do well in my table.

RP numbers are UK & Ireland from 5 April turf + AW.

The sires with runners in the winter AW from Jan 1st to April are higher than RP as they dont count the wins during that period hence Kyllachy so low on their list.

Thanks, didn't know they omit AW. What a total muddle our racing stats are. The RP put one set of jockeys stats on their website (Jan 1 to Dec 31) and another in the printed version. Trainer stats are only from Jan to Dec, Sires are all sorts of dates and include Ireland as well while the jockeys and trainers don't. That is why I have to produce my own to get the info I think I need. Owner stats mean little these days as there are so many syndicates and partnerships. Why don't they produce owner stats for individuals that include the percentage of the prize money due to each member of a syndicate?

The stats are indeed ridiculously confused
Tbh I did know the RP stats were for the turf season ,but had forgotten yours were for the cal;endar year. Hence some of my confusion.
The sire stats have traditionally been for GB AND Ireland for no obvious reason. Years ago Timeform started doing them for GB only in their Annuals at least. The whole thing is a mess.
A few years ago Falbrav was quoted as a first season sire when he had already had a crop in Japan and indeed Cumani had had a runner over here from that first crop.
There is no doubt the a/w has helped messed things up but it`s the sort of issue RFC should be getting their heads round rather than promoting deals for drunken yobs.
My original love was cricket to a large extent because of the stats being so tightly controlled. I got into HR at 12 because there was so much info as well as finding the sport visually the most exciting. It sickens me there is no attempt to market those two aspects but just the peripherals.

Exceed and Excel had 2 more winners by 3pm today to become the second sire to reach 50 UK wins in 2011, just beating Acclamation who was on 49 yesterday but has yet to score today. Kyllachy now on 57.

I have admired your efforts for some time sageform and have often attempted to fashion a betting strategy around stallion statistics and other records.

Some of the ideas I've tricked around with are:
Taking stallions with highest winners/runners ratios
Sires by highest sales figures (frightening the number of expensively bought flops)
Trainers with a particular preference for sires

Have you found a few angles that help? Otherwise the effort you make is questionnable (just to play devil's advocate)

RA, I am a compulsive stats collecter and do this because the official stats don't exist (or not in an easily available form). I don't keep stats on number of runs so can't give you any help there. My use of the data is as follows:
1. Which sires do best at different times of year (or on different ground). Cape Cross and Pivotal are really coming in to their own now after a slow start.
2. Which sires produce winners that hold their form and run up a sequence of handicap wins (Kyllachy is exceptional here as is Exceed and Excel) I have not updated recently, but at the end of June a £1 level stake on all Kyllachy progeny rated over 55 showed a £100 profit.
3. Which sires progeny tend to improve with racing and which go backwards.

I don't take much notice of sale values as many of the best horses are home bred. I always have a close look at home breds by stallions that the connections also owned-Dansili and Juddmonte is a very good example.

Roodeye Queen 2.10 Nottingham a perfect example of what I mean. Low grade handicapper but tries and wins as the opposition all had a go but didn't have the resolution. Once again she drifted in the market. Amazing.

And Cinderkamp repeats the dose at Haydock 3.25. I backed him (at 10.5 here) and Barkston Ash (both Kyllachy) who were both big odds for last time out winners. Now do you see the point of my stats? Kyllachy now on 61 for the year.

Cheveley Park should have you as official cheerleader (me too given my stock), always seemed bizarre to me they themselves dont bother racing any kyllachy colts - one in training in last few years...Penitent.  Hardly a disaster.  If you want hard knocking (value for money) horses you wouldnt look much further than Kyllachy or Acclamation.

If you want hard knocking (value for money) horses you wouldnt look much further than Kyllachy or Acclamation.

Do you really think Kyllachy is value for money at 8k?I'm not sure but I think last year he was 10k both fees far too much can't see any value in him myself poss' at 5k and then if you want him,winners he does get but class few and far between makes him look even more expensive.
Acclamation yes good value and a far better stallion,Kyllachy not in the same class.

We've been over this before PD - doesnt matter whether I quote you the median sales returns, the number of winners or wins per runner or whatever...you dont like Kyllachy.  Fine.  I wont even ask you to give me another less than 10k stallion with better stats for any of the above.

I know I know,your right..........on all counts!

Third win for the top sire with Irrational at Hamilton. Missed that one as the fav looked good. You are all rightly looking for a value from your mares, I am looking for good priced winners.

Yer ma, many of the top breeding establishments sell almost all of their colts and keep the best bred fillies. Meon Valley have bred some great fillies and a few top class colts, but as far as I recall they have never raced a colt or gelding in their Helena Springfield colours.

Cheveley have a fantastic broodmare band. It wouldn't make much sense to dilute it by keeping lesser lights to race - colts or fillies. Ofcourse they are looking to breed stallions to stand, which is something Meon Valley wouldn't be about, that they don't keep Kyllachy colts to race perhaps adds to Prima Donna's argument quite eloquently maybe!

I always feel that he has been too expensive, just about every year he's been at stud he's been over the odds in my opinion. Mind you it's a criticism I have levelled many times on all of Cheveley's stallions. No doubt he's good to get you a multiple winner though.

Oasis Dream has been a bit quiet this month until 3.40 today, then had a treble in 20 minutes. Desert Poppy, Euston Square and Dux Scholar.

I'll consider myself summarily dismissed to the lower handicapper league and doff my cap to the black-type only producers of the forum.

I'm glad you have assigned the correct status to our relative bloodstock interests Yer ma.

I have yet to breed anything below stakes class and have no intention of ever doing so.

I think I am somewhere between you and Prima Donna on Kyllachy but I do always think Cheveley are a bit fresh when it comes to setting their fees.

(p.s. Please don't trip over my extending nose when you're looking skywards for flying pigs )

Pot M and yer ma,Whilst all the horses we breed  aren't black type we always aspire that they should be,hence why sires like Kyllachy for all that he gets winners he does not get BLK type,and for a sire standing at 8/10k his results on and off the course are not good enough to represent value for money.

Whilst you're in town Prima, I thought of you with the winner today By Footstepsinthesand Ex a Rainbow Quest mare!!

You recommended that mating I'm sure 2x3 to your fave!

Banter aside there's lots of ways to skin a cat and I think/know I can get a profit using Kyllachy so thats the end of the story really.  A debate on the buying motivation / expectations of owners & trainers at the £20-£50k level would be interesting.  I certainly dont think they're necessarily thinking black-type and I know for a fact that he's popular with lots of middle ranking trainers.  Hence the entirely respectable sales.

Yer Ma, your'e right in one respect that if you are making a profit from Kyllachy then whats the prob. But making a profit from his fee would be a tight thing, esp once additional costs are factored in.Buying motivation at that level of market would be IMO getting a horse that can win or at least achieve a respectable rating and then sell it abroad at an inflated profit.Pot m, that horse would be long odds to join our BM band.Unraced dam says it all really!

Yes Yer ma interesting for sure.

As I always think/say keeping the trainers happy/content is paramount. Kyllachy's ability to provide them with a winner that is easy to have around shouldn't be underestimated perhaps.

Obviously we all know what we like about the 1st season thing, the allure of the new, the next big thing. Statistically most sires fail though and even the blinkered trainers/agents can't totally be oblivious to that. But ofcourse they're all running from the last sire that offended them even though he might be compiling a great record at stud for other owner/trainers.

Your experiences with Kyllachy suggest he is keeping your clients happy and we often quote impressive stats on here which are derided by others as they don't necessarily translate into commercial success.

For me it's hard to not chase the next big thing and I'm always devising a mating to try and upgrade on the racetrack. But for a young mare I will give more thought to a safe but not spectacular type perhaps.

A solid sound colt for export is a contributary factor too maybe.

Medicean seems to be having a very good month in terms of number of winners

Dont get much of a chance to pat myself on the back but steak for tea as my Acclamation stakes double comes in.  Dont think we'll have trouble shifting our colts this year PotM.

I'm needing some improvement yer ma, but it might happen, if so I might be able to afford steak too!

Looks like Acclamation will enable even a lesser individual to find a new home, lucky the guys who have a nice one. ( us I hope !! )

I was screaming at my Telly this afternoon for sure[:)]

BTW Sageform - RP has totally changed there stats and Kyllachy is now top by winners, havent worked out what the new rules are and obviously there are no explanatory notes.

Glad to know they take advice from this forum.

Kyllachy now on 70 UK wins and 12 clear of Exceed and Excel on 58. In the money column, Galileo is surely past the post already and we now have two of his 3yo's who could be the best miler and the best 12 furlong horses in Europe if not the world.

And Roodee Queen again shows how game the Kyllachys are by winning her 5th in a row and the 71st for her sire. Shabak Hom gave E and E his 59th at Ffos las. Sticking to the top 10 sires narrows most races down to 3 or 4 runners.

roodee queen best money spinner around at the moment. kllachy is proving to be what i always thought top class. im new to this breeding side of things,

There is a difference between class and winning roadruner. Galileo produces far more Group winners than Kyllachy but far less wins as well (exluding Ireland). The breeders who have the resources will always go for Galileo, Montjeu and the like hoping for the jackpot but if you have a decent 80 rated young mare and want to breed a winner, Kyllachy offers a good opportunity.

kyllachy is good stallion,i prefer the lower grade horses u make more money on them. group winners dont race often. if i was going to breed a horse, cant go much wrong with kyllachy. do you ever workout whats the best time of year for certain sires progeny. most winners in spring or ??

sageform     29 Jul 11 09:21 
There is a difference between class and winning roadruner. Galileo produces far more Group winners than Kyllachy but far less wins as well (exluding Ireland).

Just glancing at that statement some might saw thats a manipulation of information majority of Galileos stock are in Ireland  so its not really like for like Coolmore between Ballydoyle and Wachman alone have 50+ two years olds this year and none of those winners get counted in your stats where Kyllachy has a massive majority of his runners in the UK.

I have never disguised the fact that my stats are purely number of wins in UK. I make no allowance for number of runners and I am quite happy to agree that Galileo is the superior sire. I am just reporting my stats for those who are interested. Use of money won can distort sire and trainer tables