What is happening at Darley....

The chequebook is closed by the looks of it

Who is the 'objectional owner' to whom you refer yer ma?
He will amost certainly be syndicated on some level.
The Maktoums wouldn't avoid the horse at the sales at all. They bought Charnwood Forests and Baratheas and Darley/Godolphin would have been pretty much unconnected with Mafki at all times so they lost no face.
I suspect Shadwell being a sporting crowd would go out of their way to buy one or two as they cultivate a good image as buyers and, in this case, sellers!
Maybe you were referring to the fact that perhaps they will never be buyers of anything ever again.?
Come back Dubai, all is forgiven

Well they sold both of them (largely) to Rathbarry and plenty of similar situations - Godolphin bred and sold Verglas for instance - and they come back.
Given their numbers and Hamdam's success I don't know how upset he would really be. He is famously loyal to his staff and I am not sure that this blip will stop him from pursuing a nice horse.
They were a long time shafted by a certain group before they finally started to boycott that product!

I'm not him prima d.But I knew what was going on...You can tell him yourself when you see him.Some touch for him isn't it?

The maktoums look like they're done don't they?....Canford Cliffs to Coolmore as well.
All those who sent mares this year to Darley because of what happened at Tatts last Oct...Be very afraid.

Well. I shall stick my neck out here and say that The Maktoums will be at Tatts and Goffs at a significant level, September too.
I think a cut back would automatically encompass Donny and Deauville because the former has survived without them for many years and the latter because they are no where near as significant in France anyway.
They'll support their stallions pretty significantly I bet.
(And ofcourse I'm never wrong)

Am I the only one that batted an eye when Tipperary swooped for Canford Cliffs? They didn't get much attention when we were discussing likely venues. I'm not saying they are wrong but I'm also certain that Darley were not necessarily wrong in not wanting him either. Unless ofcourse that you are right and they've nothing squirelled away for their hobbies.

Heard today that Dubawi already has 200 applications for 2010. Are you amongst them Prima?

I say well done to Redvers too. I have a mare that would probably suit - She'd be my best whereas I'm sure you'll be sending your worst Prima Do we think he's a big horse? That would scare me a bit coupled with a lack of proper 2yo form.

I think you need a big mare with a big body for him he seems a liitle small but i also got that impression of dubawi aswell

You need to be right on this one Prima, if my mare is to suit.
If you were to get a nice filly from your proposed  mating she could perhaps be a keeper as you are getting further away from much of what is ubiquitous at the moment?

Anyway, I am sure it is all hypothetical what with Wonderwillies recommendation in today's racing post I'm sure he'll be full by now. Being a relative pauper though, I do find it a pain having to guess what his fee may be until the Breeders cup is done and dusted. I don't have the clout to get into a 'full' stallion that late when I find that Makfi has won by 3l and I cannot play!

"2011" as you sorted!!!

What does the mare have this year PD. I'd like to cover a mare with dubawi i'm not to gone on Makfi. I thought a big bodied Danehill Dancer mare would be the right cross for him

Sorry to butt in, but I have really enjoyed following your thread and thinking. It's good to learn about the game from a different angle and find out about the breeders and their concerns. Thanks, it's refreshing to find healthy discussion on here

By the way, my 'Makfi' potential mare is also out of training, infoal early to a champion 2yo, Danehill sireline. You haven't nicked her have you

Pot'M, is she bay? You'd better go and do a head-count! (That was me that passed you driving the horsebox yesterday )

Being passed over by a 'name' is fair point and what other mares you are sending to connected stallions can also have a bearing on how acceptable you are. This could happen to me as I am only a breeder of moderate handicappers. But I doubt my wife would be passed over, so I can hang on her coat tails to a certain extent!!

Redal2,Feel free to 'butt in'! We do try and keep it civil here and attempt intelligent discussions, but certainly I'm no innocent when it comes to losing my temper and being rude to people through the keyboard! However the breeding angle is sometimes hard for the 'betting people' to get their heads around,so it is refreshing to see you enjoying this board.

Rip Van,are you thinking of your namesake?He will be very popular not too sure about him long term but he will be getting a few from here that's for sure!Is your DD mare from one of his later crops?its amazing when you look at the trash he got early on and his results from mares,people are too quick to say he is a poor sire of sires what they fail to see is how the hell can he turn some dreg family into a 'producing one'just by covering the mare?I do like him and his stock we have a very nice colt that will go into training  later this year it has a stallions pedigree all we need is some good wins

Rip Van,If she is on the big side and gets big sorts then maybe I'd skip New Approach as we were saying the other day he is a touch on the backward side,if you can afford it of those two I'd go for Rip Van Winkle as by the time you sell NA maybe dead in the water we shall see,Ravens Pass is a nice prospect you should get in all-right,but we have one of his here its not massive but not small either the mare is only 15.3hh,Cape Cross is one who does get them by and large on the smallish side he could be the type for her,he's one that I'm not that mad about he gets lots of winners but his class animals are really few and far between but he does sell well atm,Rip Van Winkle I think if he wins today and say wins the BC classic then he will be expensive,have you thought about Excellent Art?being by Pivotal he will have appeal they have sold well enough and are nice sorts but he is a gamble I know,still he looks a more racy type than New Approach,did she go on the soft being a DD as imo Pivotal's need cut its something to think about.
Are you going to Leopardstown today?I shall be there and I'm going to see Famous Name he does have a chance it looks a great prospect.

Well i'm home from Leopardstown now didn't wiat for the last race at all and was disappointed by Rip today maybe he didnt have long enough between the races but Cape Blanco was very good today. He could turn out to be a nice prospect as theres speed on the dams side. I was impressed by Beethoven today and if he wins a few more races he could well turn into a nice prospect.

The mare in question has had a filly foal by Excellent Art which was a very nice foal. Yes NA prob would be to big for her. I think Rip could suit cause shes a fairly scopey mare and i think Rip is a small bit narrow. I'm not Cape Cross's biggest fan but he looks like a nice cross for her.

potential i'm still learning at the game my father is the one with the knowledge you seem to be a very interesting charachter as is PD the two of ye have in depth knowledge of breeding

sorry after the Dante

Rip Van,Beethoven does look a nice sort but as like you he would need to improve a hell of a lot to use him,Oratorio has done okay but not really gone on from last year,overall he has imo been disappointing we have a few by him and you can't help think why did we do that, but then we all get it wrong from time to time,but he does come from a good family though far enough back,I doubt son's of Oratorio will be that well accepted ATM Beethoven is one I'd have down for them to sell,if he does go to stud he needs to be cheap,the Dewhurst he won (in a blanket finish) looked at the time pretty poor I still hold that view,saying that D I C K Turpin is the only good one to take from the race,he was about 5th or 6th in it I seem to remember.

Rip Van,No we have not used Excellent Art.........perhaps we should of done so looking at his stock they are nice sorts but my view with Pivotal is he not a great sire of sires but his daughters will make good broodmares especially his later crops,he is a bit like Danehill Dancer but imo the difference is DD gets a lot of class 2 y'olds Pivotal doesn't.
You have a point about Beethoven I doubt they would stand him either that is only going to change if he turns it in and wins some real good races looking at him though I can't see it happening.As for finding out who you or anyone else is for that matter you have no worries there as what I like about this forum is that we can all talk on the same level something that in the real world may not be the case,you know how it is I'm sure,but saying that I have often thought it would be great to meet you and Pot M over a drink at the sales which of course they would be on me!!!

Potential Millionaire, I would tend to agree with you rather than my Husband regarding Ravens Pass. He is bigish and plain and, as you say, rather American looking. However I felt he would be commercial esp as a top class son of Elusive Quality and so took a gamble in his conformational drawbacks. One definite advantage of breeding from a stock of mares that are from families that I have been involved with over a number of years and several generations ( I will not say how many, I am that vain!) is that you can make more of an educated guess as to the type each mare will throw and that makes situation such as this as little easier. As Prima has said, one foal is a little bit average but the other is a nice type. As for his opinion on how RP's conformation has impacted on the foals, I will just say this, the mares are 'my' families and I could tell you in detail about every foal each mare has produced and the faults/traits she carries. My Husband sometimes has to ask me which one is which..............!

Excellent Art has certainly got some good sorts and was a nice looking type himself, however I am just not on the Pivotal bandwagon and view his sons with equal suspicion. I have been known to be wrong though (!) so I wish you the best of luck with yours Rip Van.

Couldn't have Beethoven I'm afraid. Oratorio has been disapointing IMO. I was very impressed with his first foals and he was  my pick for First Season sire last year. He just doesn't seem to have built on his early promise and I will reserve further judgement for now.

Rip Van Winkle (the horse) is another who has been a bit of a let down this season. Last year he had STS as a valid excuse and was expected to carry all before him this term but it just hasn't materialised as far as I can see. Beaten convincingly over a mile, and then won the Juddmonte more because the others didn't then on any real merit and stuffed once more at Leopardstown. He is on a recovery mission now and his fee must be dropping by the day.I would expect to see CC removed from his opposition for the remainder of the season and would imagine that the way CC beat RVW had no small bearing on the purchase.

Cape Blanco holds more appeal to me than RVW, his speedy pedigree with a few classy animals has more hope that RVW's lowly page. Needed that win the other day to come off the NH roster though and has more to do before I start send any numbers, though one mare would suit him at a lowish fee.

Now, Makfi. What a coup for Tweenhills and a boost for independent  stallion studs.As far as I know the purchase prices was in excess of £8m and I would expect him to stand for around 25k. I do like him and I think he will be oversubscribed if they decide to limit his book, but I just cannot get away from his Arabic pedigree. Although he is not standing for Shadwell he is pure Shadwell on the page and how well does this stand up in the sale ring? Time and again we see good racehorses that should do well retire there and come sales just fall short of the mark. So I have niggly reservations about him. But as a Classic winning son of a very promising young sire that is red hot commercially and a good type to boot, then yes, I will most likely use him!

Looking at the results from Doncaster last week and the prospect of Makfi standing at 25k,does anyone else think that stallion fees need to come down to a realistic value for money level?I just wonder with Tweenhills their client base are they the sort of breeders who are ready to use a 25k horse?Its great for any independent stud to get a good colt to stand but David Redvers may have a stallion who is beyond his clients range,what are they going to do?doubt they will all pile into the great Sleeping Indian.

Nice to hear from you Slick, Prima should go away more often! Don't say that Pot M she might agree with you!

potentialmillionaire     10 Sep 10 16:45 
Nice to hear from you Slick, Prima should go away more often!

And no I would never expect a lady to dignify that with a reply!


Thanks Potential. I don't post in here so often now, I am fed up with how much the forum has slowed down and makes my computer run as though it is made of treacle! I do keep in touch with the topics though, and Prima keeps me up to date. The usual run of things is that he reads something, we discuss it and then he posts. Though he certainly spends far more time looking on here than I can spare for it

Your idea of fees remaining static and book sizes being strictly controlled does seem to be the most sensible way forward IMO. Just simply slashing fees would not really address the issue, there will always be breeders that think their mare can make a fortune if their moderate mare just goes to an expensive sire. It would also greatly add to the already large problem of catalogue domination by a handful of sires. One following another through the ring is not conducive for profit I fear!

If we got back to the days before Deep Run when a 'nomination' actually meant something and had some value then surely we would be on the right track?

Perhaps there would be less in the way of failed sires at the higher levels if Stallion Masters were actually that, and had control over the mare quality they accepted. I am not so sure that the gene pool would widen, the same lines will still be fashionable, and there may be an increase in lesser lights gaining a place at stud. But on the whole saturation by one sire would be unlikely and some surprise success stories may result.

With today's victory of Dubawi's son Poet's Voice who last year won the Champagne stakes GR2 and beating a high class field this afternoon including Makfi,could he be a better prospect than Makfi next term?I was not at Ascot today so don't know what was said in terms of future plans.
Another good looking son of Dubawi.