Bloodstock & Breeding
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Just an oratorio filly we have for sale, what you think?
Lot 863
Danehill Danzig
Razyana Oratorio (IRE) Mahrah Vaguely Noble
Montage
Kahyasi Ile de Bourbon
Kadissya
BAY FILLY FOAL
(IRE)
February 2nd, 2008
(First Produce)
Shamsada (IRE)
(2000) Shamawna Darshaan
Shamsana
E.B.F. Nominated.
1st dam
SHAMSADA (IRE): placed 4 times; Above is her first foal.
2nd dam
Shamawna (IRE): 2 wins at 3 in France and £22,704 and placed twice inc. 3rd
Prix de Royaumont, Gr.3; dam of 9 foals; 7 runners; 4 winners inc.:
SHAWANDA (IRE) (f. by Sinndar (IRE)): Champion 3yr old filly in Ireland
in 2005, 5 wins at 3 at home and in France and £313,227 inc. Darley Irish
Oaks, Gr.1, Prix Vermeille-Lucien Barriere, Gr.1, Prix de Royaumont, Gr.3 and
Prix de la Seine, L.; broodmare.
SHAWARA (IRE) (f. by Barathea (IRE)): 2 wins at 3 in France and £29,752 inc.
Prix de Lieurey, L., placed inc. 3rd Prix de la Cochere, L.; dam of a winner:
Shazand (FR): 4 wins, £45,919 inc. 2 wins at 3 in France and placed 3
times inc. 3rd G.P.Beachcomber Paradis-Michel Houyvet, L.
Stairway To Glory (IRE): winner at 3, 2008.
She also has a yearling filly by Sinndar (IRE).
3rd dam
SHAMSANA (USA) (by Nijinsky (CAN)): unraced; dam of 6 foals; 5 runners; 3
winners inc.:
SHAMANIYA (IRE): winner at 3 in France and £38,728 viz. Prix Amandine,
L., placed 2nd Prix Coronation, L. and Prix de Saint-Cyr, L.; dam of a winner:
Shamanara (IRE): winner at 3 in France, 3rd Prix de la Cochere, L.
Shamawna (IRE): see above.
4th dam
SHANIZADEH: 2 wins in France; dam of 8 foals; 6 runners; 5 winners inc.:
SHARAYA (USA): 4 wins at 3 in France and 1,255,000 fr. inc. Trusthouse
Forte Prix Vermeille, Gr.1, Prix de la Nonette, Gr.3 and Prix de Bagatelle, L.,
placed 2nd Prix Saint-Alary, Gr.1 and 3rd Prix de Malleret, Gr.2; dam of
winners; grandam of SANS ADIEU (JPN) (won Centaur S., Gr.2, Keihan
Hai, Gr.3, Ibis Summer Dash, L. and 2nd Sprinters S., Gr.1).
SHARANIYA (USA): 5 wins at 3 and 4 in France and 1,051,470 fr. inc. Grand
Prix d'Evry, Gr.2, Prix Minerve, Gr.3, Prix de Royallieu, Gr.3 and Prix de la
Pepiniere, L., placed inc. 3rd P. Spielbanken des Landes Nord Westfalen, Gr.3,
4th Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud, Gr.1; dam of winners inc.:
Mazaya (IRE): winner at 3 and placed twice inc. 2nd Riggs Bank Harvest S.,
L.; dam of MUNSEF (GB) (4 wins to 2007 and £143,860 inc. Fishpools
Furnishings Godolphin S., L., placed 13 times inc. 2nd stanjamesuk.com
Jockey Club S., Gr.2, Grosvenor Casinos Cumberland Lodge S., Gr.3).
SHANNKARA (IRE): 2 wins at 2 and 3 in France and in U.S.A. and £61,534
inc. Nijana S., Gr.3, placed 2nd Prix des Tuileries, L.; dam of winners inc.:
TEKKEN (IRE): 4 wins in U.S.A. and £157,833 inc. Super Bowl S., L.,
placed 19 times inc. 2nd Jersey Derby, Gr.2, 3rd Hill Prince S., Gr.3, Palm
Beach H., Gr.3 and Bet Twice S., L.; sire.
Stabled in Barn L Box 4
Lot 863
Danehill Danzig
Razyana Oratorio (IRE) Mahrah Vaguely Noble
Montage
Kahyasi Ile de Bourbon
Kadissya
BAY FILLY FOAL
(IRE)
February 2nd, 2008
(First Produce)
Shamsada (IRE)
(2000) Shamawna Darshaan
Shamsana
E.B.F. Nominated.
1st dam
SHAMSADA (IRE): placed 4 times; Above is her first foal.
2nd dam
Shamawna (IRE): 2 wins at 3 in France and £22,704 and placed twice inc. 3rd
Prix de Royaumont, Gr.3; dam of 9 foals; 7 runners; 4 winners inc.:
SHAWANDA (IRE) (f. by Sinndar (IRE)): Champion 3yr old filly in Ireland
in 2005, 5 wins at 3 at home and in France and £313,227 inc. Darley Irish
Oaks, Gr.1, Prix Vermeille-Lucien Barriere, Gr.1, Prix de Royaumont, Gr.3 and
Prix de la Seine, L.; broodmare.
SHAWARA (IRE) (f. by Barathea (IRE)): 2 wins at 3 in France and £29,752 inc.
Prix de Lieurey, L., placed inc. 3rd Prix de la Cochere, L.; dam of a winner:
Shazand (FR): 4 wins, £45,919 inc. 2 wins at 3 in France and placed 3
times inc. 3rd G.P.Beachcomber Paradis-Michel Houyvet, L.
Stairway To Glory (IRE): winner at 3, 2008.
She also has a yearling filly by Sinndar (IRE).
3rd dam
SHAMSANA (USA) (by Nijinsky (CAN)): unraced; dam of 6 foals; 5 runners; 3
winners inc.:
SHAMANIYA (IRE): winner at 3 in France and £38,728 viz. Prix Amandine,
L., placed 2nd Prix Coronation, L. and Prix de Saint-Cyr, L.; dam of a winner:
Shamanara (IRE): winner at 3 in France, 3rd Prix de la Cochere, L.
Shamawna (IRE): see above.
4th dam
SHANIZADEH: 2 wins in France; dam of 8 foals; 6 runners; 5 winners inc.:
SHARAYA (USA): 4 wins at 3 in France and 1,255,000 fr. inc. Trusthouse
Forte Prix Vermeille, Gr.1, Prix de la Nonette, Gr.3 and Prix de Bagatelle, L.,
placed 2nd Prix Saint-Alary, Gr.1 and 3rd Prix de Malleret, Gr.2; dam of
winners; grandam of SANS ADIEU (JPN) (won Centaur S., Gr.2, Keihan
Hai, Gr.3, Ibis Summer Dash, L. and 2nd Sprinters S., Gr.1).
SHARANIYA (USA): 5 wins at 3 and 4 in France and 1,051,470 fr. inc. Grand
Prix d'Evry, Gr.2, Prix Minerve, Gr.3, Prix de Royallieu, Gr.3 and Prix de la
Pepiniere, L., placed inc. 3rd P. Spielbanken des Landes Nord Westfalen, Gr.3,
4th Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud, Gr.1; dam of winners inc.:
Mazaya (IRE): winner at 3 and placed twice inc. 2nd Riggs Bank Harvest S.,
L.; dam of MUNSEF (GB) (4 wins to 2007 and £143,860 inc. Fishpools
Furnishings Godolphin S., L., placed 13 times inc. 2nd stanjamesuk.com
Jockey Club S., Gr.2, Grosvenor Casinos Cumberland Lodge S., Gr.3).
SHANNKARA (IRE): 2 wins at 2 and 3 in France and in U.S.A. and £61,534
inc. Nijana S., Gr.3, placed 2nd Prix des Tuileries, L.; dam of winners inc.:
TEKKEN (IRE): 4 wins in U.S.A. and £157,833 inc. Super Bowl S., L.,
placed 19 times inc. 2nd Jersey Derby, Gr.2, 3rd Hill Prince S., Gr.3, Palm
Beach H., Gr.3 and Bet Twice S., L.; sire.
Stabled in Barn L Box 4
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Replies: 109
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http://www.goffsireland.com/salesdata/73/pdf/863.pdf
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in answer to your question, i think the foal sales will be on a par with last year. near the bottom. your consignor most certainly knows his mohicans so, assuming your foal is correct, you'll have a chance (although i wouldn't bank on the [second-crop] sire getting the same amount of back up as he might have had at last year's foal sales).
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(the 'opportunity' factor is assumed)
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Like the nick.....Danehill ex Kahaysi mare.....worked well with Dansili....Off course Zarkava is out of a Kahaysi mare.
Do you know if Shawanda has had a foal yet ? |
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If Shamsada was my mare I would not have covered her with an expensive unproven sire. Barathea IMO would have been a much better proposition particularly as he did so well with the second dam.I think you will be doing well to break even.
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Much as I like Barathea he has had another quiet year and is entering that retirement/enthusiasts only stage that most old stallions reach. This is reflected in his y median to date of £11,905 that compares with £71,500 for Acclamation who is now clearly the Rathbarry flagship.
For the foal itself I think Oratario was by far the more commercial choice (£35,706) but the risk you have taken is the usual one of unproven sire/unproven mare. Maybe you have now sold the mare so that is now someone elses problem but if not I would definitely go to a proven stallion in 2009 and give her a chance - (most new stallions eventually flop so you do devalue new mares by keep using them). My guess is Goffs foal sale will be down 30% . Whether your foal makes a profit or a loss now entirely hinges on what she looks like as an individual and it is ridiculous for us on here to speculate. Ask your consignor, he will give you the best steer. |
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yes sammy, shawanda has a colt foal by kingmambo and is currently in foal to street cry!
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Look forward to that Kingmambo....Shawanda was a serious mare, her performance in the Irish Oaks was staggering...I know the trainer considered her the best he trained but that was before Karkaza!
Who consigns your foal Ace Kicker |
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zarkava sorry!
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bd castlebridge. link above is the catalogue page sammy.
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From The Castlebridge Consignment
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Acclamation had a 1997 median of £35,000. Barathea had a1997 median of £30,000. I think those figures are a fairer reflection of the merits of both sires. GG appears to have a great admiration for Acclamation but it is a pity he has to use incomplete and premature statistics to try and drive home his point of view.
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Gotchee. I made it perfectly clear the 2008 medians I quoted were "year to date". I am quite aware that in general medians will come down with more moderate stock on ofer in tatts 2/3/4.
You are right I am an admirer of Acclamation. You need to remember that the yearlings being sold now were from his third crop of mares when he was not very popular and standing at less than half the fee of Barathea. He covered some quite moderate mares to get his numbers up that year(quite typical of a lot of third season stallions) so obviously he will have some weaker offerings over the next 2 weeks. None of this is central to my main point that Barathea is on the way out as a commercial sire. Believe it or not this is quite hard for me to conclude as I think he is a good sire and in the past he has done me some favours. I also take the point that his genes are just the same as when he was 5 years younger.However, you do not survive in this game by being sentimental. To recommend to another breeder to use Barathea is not IMO very helpful advice. |
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GG, I am not disputing your stats, in fact they are crystal clear. The point I was making was your emphasis on showing how well Acclamation was performing compared to Barathea. I think it is fairer to analyse the stats at the end of the year. It is a bit like the the A.C. Milan supporter who thought they won the Champions League Final when they were 3-0 up at half time against Liverpool neglecting to remember that there was another half to play. I am not doubting the potential of Acclamation whereas Barathea has nothing to prove particularly as a broodmare stakes sire.
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Gotchee: Acclamation is quite peripheral to this discussion and I agree with you that a better picture of medians will only be available after all the major sales - and will need to take into account the quality of mares covered and the original nomination price.
The central point here is your advice to have this mare covered by Barathea (I have not suggested she is covered by Acclamation). In my honest opinion that is poor advice. fundamentally a good sire but not one I would want to be going to future sales with. Could you forget all about Acclamation and get back to who should cover this mare. IMO a decent Barathea back in the pedigree does not compensate the fact that his commercial appeal is fading. |
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Is this a commercial mare?
Sold for 18,000 after her debut, proved herself to be thoroughly modest afterwards. |
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no idea what she looks like but very commercial on paper. quite a lot has happened since she was sold for 18k - eg shawanda!!.
as long as she is correct certainly a mare i would go with. |
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when we bought shamsada, shawanda was an unnamed yearling filly, hence the 18K euros
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ace kicker: well bought. hope the first y delivers for you.
gotchee: so far 9 baratheas sold at tatts2/3 average 16,556. 5 acclamations average 66,200. |
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GG, You are aiming the gun at your foot again. Be careful or you will end up with a limp. Why dont you research the trends rather than spurt out what can only be described as snap shot statistics. If you look at the statistics for the Goffs Million sale a couple of weeks ago you will see both Barathea and Acclamation sold 10 each. Baratheas sold for an average of 53,500 Euros and the mighty Acclamations sold for an average of 49,400 Euros. Could you just answer me one question please? What day did Barathea as you describe, enter the retirement/enthusiast stage that most old stallions reach, yesteday or the day before.
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the medians i quoted earlier that you took exception to were ALL 2008 sales to date. i agree with you that no complete picture will emerge until the end of the season but it still seems very clear to me that acclamation has now taken over as the flagship stallion at Rathbarry - and remember he was covering at a much lower fee than Barathea when this crop were conceived.
there is no ONE day when an elderly stallion enters his "rest home" phase. stallions gradually become uncommercial as they get older (fairly or unfairly is another question) . if this is a trend you are not aware of and you are breeding for the commercial market you will be making some expensive covering choices. statistically it is a question of watching relative sales returns,numbers covered etc but very few stallions in their late teens avoid the trend. for 2009 i would personally avoid cadeaux genereaux, selkirk - like barathea both fundamentally good sires. choosing a stallion is an art not a science but you need to be looking forwards not backwards when you do so. |
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GG, You have made a fair point.
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cheers GG
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1500 Euro max
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breeders cup wins for rainbow quest and cadeaux genereaux show that old boys can still produce the goods, albeit they lose their commercial appeal.
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Ace Kicker......what have you sent your mare to this year?
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she is in foal again to Oratorio
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Must fancy Oratorio for first season honours......
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Sold for 30,000 Euro, well done.
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i hope oratorio does well for you as it is an almighty gamble going to the same unproven sire 2 years running.
if he flops as most new sires do you have devalued the mare as well. IMO opinion i would now go to an absolutely proven sire who gets 2yo winners so (if the worst comes to the worst with oratorio) you can then get the mare back on the road. hope my caution is misplaced but time for some prudence i reckon. |
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very well done.
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Didn't know Rainbow Quest had a Breeders Cup winner this year
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I think he meant Group 1 wins (instead of Breeders' Cup wins), given that Crowded House won the Racing Post Trophy on Breeders' Cup day.
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she had a another foal last nite in france, another oratorio filly. The mare is over there to be covered by sinndar next.
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best of luck with her ace kicker .
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hope all's well AK. good luck.
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What has Shawanda bred so far
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Kingmambo colt foaled Feb 16 last year (first foal)
she was covered by Kingmambo again |
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where do you get that
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