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Many customers will be aware of the recent Australian High Court ruling requiring wagering operators to pay a fee based on turnover to accept bets on New South Wales thoroughbred and harness racing. Racing Victoria and Racing Queensland are both also moving to a fee regime based on turnover with Queensland commencing on 1 August 2012 and Victoria expected on 15 August 2012.
Betfair has been reevaluating its pricing structure in the wake of these decisions and it has been determined that regretfully a turnover charge will be applied to a very small group of customers who meet specific criteria. This will ensure Betfair can continue to offer the best wagering product in the market and provide our customers access to all Australian racing content. The charge will come into effect on 30 July 2012.
The charge will only be applied on those markets which Betfair is required to pay a turnover fee. For a complete listing of jurisdictions affected by a turnover fee please refer to this link.
The turnover charge is being applied to customers in exactly the same way as the racing bodies are charging Betfair, however at a smaller rate. Therefore Betfair continues to absorb a portion of the fee it is being required to pay.
The new turnover charge is applicable to a very small group of customers. It is necessary to ensure Betfair can continue to operative viably on turnover charge markets. The turnover charge is aimed at customer activity which generates large volumes of back bets without providing Betfair with the corresponding revenue to cover the charges accrued. Therefore without the charge Betfair would be left with a turnover fee payable to racing bodies but no revenue with which to pay it.
This charge will only apply to customers who during a week meet all three of the below criteria:
* have matched back bets on 50 or more markets which Betfair is subject to a turnover fee from a racing body (‘turnover charge markets’);
* have matched back bets with an aggregate value of $2000 or greater on turnover charge markets; and
* the total commission generated by the customer on turnover charge markets is less than 1.5% of the aggregate value of matched back bets placed by the customer on those markets.
Total commission generated is half of the commission paid plus half of implied commission, calculated by the formula = (commission paid + implied commission) ÷ 2.
Implied commission is 3% of player losses where players make an overall loss on a single market.
Turnover charge markets will be identified in the grey text of the market view.
The turnover charge will be 1.2% of the aggregate value of matched back bets on turnover charge markets.
Betfair is being charged 1.5% of the aggregate value of matched bets by Racing NSW, Harness Racing NSW, Racing Victoria and Racing Queensland. In both Victoria and Queensland this rate increases to 2% for their premium racing months. You can see a current list of the tracks that the charge applies to click here.
The charge will be calculated for the period from each Monday to Sunday (GMT), and will be payable on a retrospective basis. The charge will be debited from a customer’s UK wallet each Wednesday, alongside any applicable premium charge.
The charge will only be incurred for any week when a customer’s betting activity meets the criteria. Please note the charge will not be applicable to any lay bets.
During a weekly cycle, a customer has matched back bets to an aggregate value of $10,000 over 100 NSW and Victorian thoroughbred markets. The customer has $100 in Total Commission generated.
Criteria:
Back bets placed in 50 or more turnover charge markets
YES
75 turnover charge markets
Matched back bets with an aggregate of $2000 or greater on turnover charge markets YES
$10,000 of matched back bets on turnover charge markets
Total Commission generated on turnover charge markets is less than 1.5% of aggregate matched bets YES
$100/$10000 = 1%
Turnover Charge payable will be 1.2% of $10,000 = $120.
Customers will be contacted directly by a Betfair representative and informed on the first occasion on which this turnover charge would have been payable.
Customers will also be afforded a one-week ‘grace period’ designed to give them an opportunity to refine their betting habits should they wish to do so. The first notifications to affected customers who have triggered the grace period will be sent the week of August 6, 2012.
A summary report of an individual’s weekly activity will also be available if requested.
Betfair remains committed to providing our customers with the best products and service in the market and the implementation of this turnover charge is imperative to the future sustainability of the business.
Despite this new charge, Betfair’s prices will remain the best of any wagering operator on Australasian racing.
Customers seeking further information on this pricing alteration can call the Aus Betfair helpdesk on 1300 238 324 (9am - 7pm AEST).
Betfair has been reevaluating its pricing structure in the wake of these decisions and it has been determined that regretfully a turnover charge will be applied to a very small group of customers who meet specific criteria. This will ensure Betfair can continue to offer the best wagering product in the market and provide our customers access to all Australian racing content. The charge will come into effect on 30 July 2012.
The charge will only be applied on those markets which Betfair is required to pay a turnover fee. For a complete listing of jurisdictions affected by a turnover fee please refer to this link.
The turnover charge is being applied to customers in exactly the same way as the racing bodies are charging Betfair, however at a smaller rate. Therefore Betfair continues to absorb a portion of the fee it is being required to pay.
The new turnover charge is applicable to a very small group of customers. It is necessary to ensure Betfair can continue to operative viably on turnover charge markets. The turnover charge is aimed at customer activity which generates large volumes of back bets without providing Betfair with the corresponding revenue to cover the charges accrued. Therefore without the charge Betfair would be left with a turnover fee payable to racing bodies but no revenue with which to pay it.
This charge will only apply to customers who during a week meet all three of the below criteria:
* have matched back bets on 50 or more markets which Betfair is subject to a turnover fee from a racing body (‘turnover charge markets’);
* have matched back bets with an aggregate value of $2000 or greater on turnover charge markets; and
* the total commission generated by the customer on turnover charge markets is less than 1.5% of the aggregate value of matched back bets placed by the customer on those markets.
Total commission generated is half of the commission paid plus half of implied commission, calculated by the formula = (commission paid + implied commission) ÷ 2.
Implied commission is 3% of player losses where players make an overall loss on a single market.
Turnover charge markets will be identified in the grey text of the market view.
The turnover charge will be 1.2% of the aggregate value of matched back bets on turnover charge markets.
Betfair is being charged 1.5% of the aggregate value of matched bets by Racing NSW, Harness Racing NSW, Racing Victoria and Racing Queensland. In both Victoria and Queensland this rate increases to 2% for their premium racing months. You can see a current list of the tracks that the charge applies to click here.
The charge will be calculated for the period from each Monday to Sunday (GMT), and will be payable on a retrospective basis. The charge will be debited from a customer’s UK wallet each Wednesday, alongside any applicable premium charge.
The charge will only be incurred for any week when a customer’s betting activity meets the criteria. Please note the charge will not be applicable to any lay bets.
During a weekly cycle, a customer has matched back bets to an aggregate value of $10,000 over 100 NSW and Victorian thoroughbred markets. The customer has $100 in Total Commission generated.
Criteria:
Back bets placed in 50 or more turnover charge markets
YES
75 turnover charge markets
Matched back bets with an aggregate of $2000 or greater on turnover charge markets YES
$10,000 of matched back bets on turnover charge markets
Total Commission generated on turnover charge markets is less than 1.5% of aggregate matched bets YES
$100/$10000 = 1%
Turnover Charge payable will be 1.2% of $10,000 = $120.
Customers will be contacted directly by a Betfair representative and informed on the first occasion on which this turnover charge would have been payable.
Customers will also be afforded a one-week ‘grace period’ designed to give them an opportunity to refine their betting habits should they wish to do so. The first notifications to affected customers who have triggered the grace period will be sent the week of August 6, 2012.
A summary report of an individual’s weekly activity will also be available if requested.
Betfair remains committed to providing our customers with the best products and service in the market and the implementation of this turnover charge is imperative to the future sustainability of the business.
Despite this new charge, Betfair’s prices will remain the best of any wagering operator on Australasian racing.
Customers seeking further information on this pricing alteration can call the Aus Betfair helpdesk on 1300 238 324 (9am - 7pm AEST).
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I see there is no mention in the announcement, that Betfair will return to the 5% maximum commission on Australian racing.
My thoughts EXACTLY Castrion. The 6.5% MBR will probably be continued in jurisdictions where the 1.5% isn't even applicable. Nice grab for more cash by betty imo.
you're right whoopi. I make it if you back a winner at 1.01 in a t/o jurisdiction no-body wins.
If anyone is out there doing the maths, happy to compare notes. I have it that if you're on 6.5% and backing outright, you will pay turnover tax at 1.47. If you're on a discount of say 30% you'd pay at 1.66.
In other words at 6.5% a 1.46 shot is 1.4301. Yet if you back it at 1.48 it's 1.4368 :)
If anyone is out there doing the maths, happy to compare notes. I have it that if you're on 6.5% and backing outright, you will pay turnover tax at 1.47. If you're on a discount of say 30% you'd pay at 1.66.
In other words at 6.5% a 1.46 shot is 1.4301. Yet if you back it at 1.48 it's 1.4368 :)
sorry, i'm an idiot. Meant to compare it to 1.47 you'd get less than 1.46.
this will really affect the exchange, traders as well are finished in Aus, you can't make money from trading anymore in Australia, it would be impossible.
Will have an effect on traders in QLD, NSW, VIC. Turnover will drop in those 3 states, but increase in the other states and territories.
Does anyone know if the new charges would count towards any premium charge liability for the week?
doesn't count towards your premium charges at all, it is completely seperate charge
I asked that Schnyder and he said no. But I'm not sure he really knew to be fair. I'd hope so.
Premium charges aside (which is pretty hard to do..:( ) there's only one trader that can come back to NSW. That's the lay to back or back to lay trader who works with a wide margin. The one-tick etc is finished. As they already were.
Premium charges aside (which is pretty hard to do..:( ) there's only one trader that can come back to NSW. That's the lay to back or back to lay trader who works with a wide margin. The one-tick etc is finished. As they already were.
Josh
Is that a bad thing. The liquidity supplied by traders is highly overrated IMO.
Is that a bad thing. The liquidity supplied by traders is highly overrated IMO.
this is a usage charge not a profit charge, this is a charge for using the exchange, the only way you can't get charges is if you make enough profit to cover the 1.2& of your back bet, or if you lay,
I meant the only way to avoid charges is to make enought profit to cover the back bet
I think you're right Castiron. Although didn't believe it once. I guess when Vic comes in we'll get the best guide of all.
Mumma - isn't a standard "usage charge" part of "total charges" anyway? (eg, like data fees). I could make a case t/o should be included there too.
https://account.betfair.com/regpay-myaccount/premiumcharge/summary.html
Mumma - isn't a standard "usage charge" part of "total charges" anyway? (eg, like data fees). I could make a case t/o should be included there too.
https://account.betfair.com/regpay-myaccount/premiumcharge/summary.html
'a turnover charge will be applied to a very small group of customers who meet specific criteria.'
thats what they said when premium charge came in.
thats what they said when premium charge came in.
Amazing how every new charge only gets a 'very small' amount of customers. The 6.5% MBR only affected a very small amount of people as well..
.........and no mention of any tool to allow someone to see where they stand in relation to the charge at any time. Even worse than the PC as it's so complex.
Now if you do a bit of all the types of betting (straight win/straight lay/trade) you have no idea what you will be charged till after the fact.
Now if you do a bit of all the types of betting (straight win/straight lay/trade) you have no idea what you will be charged till after the fact.
Betfaire trading is finished here, there will be no trading anywhere by the end of the year because all states will adopt the same charge.
I am a bit surprised that the UK racing has not tried to adopt the same idea as our mob. with the large amount of money going on the exchange they could make a fortune from betfair and the bookies.
more complicated than PC! i have no clue about PC.
I put aside 30% to pay it this week & didnt get charged. Not that i'm unhappy but just i have no clue where i stand until i get the final result Tuesday.
I put aside 30% to pay it this week & didnt get charged. Not that i'm unhappy but just i have no clue where i stand until i get the final result Tuesday.
Joel they did themselves no favors in my eyes when the increased commission rates across all states and codes
even ones with the gross profit model
They have handled the whole situation very poor from the word go in my eyes
So it is now a user pays situation fair enough
BUT DO WE GET OUR OLD COMMISSION STRUCTURE BACK????
even ones with the gross profit model
They have handled the whole situation very poor from the word go in my eyes
So it is now a user pays situation fair enough
BUT DO WE GET OUR OLD COMMISSION STRUCTURE BACK????
I can't be bothered reading the conditions & trying to get my head around it, but is it possible to lose for a week but get a turnover charge? if so BF might have to hire some debt collectors.
kye i'd say the answer is yes.
Say you backed 10 1.01 winners on turnover of $1000 each, then you lose $1000 with an implied commission of 3% on the losing turnover, the result is you're well behind but getting charged turnover tax.
Say you backed 10 1.01 winners on turnover of $1000 each, then you lose $1000 with an implied commission of 3% on the losing turnover, the result is you're well behind but getting charged turnover tax.
of course backing 1.01 winner is pointless if your slugged on the turnover anyway
Kye/Silver great points (sadly). You have to be a mathematician to work out your future strategies (PC, T/o etc..) Sure some (of us) will survive but this game is getting so difficult.
Does anyone know officially that the tax isn't part of 'other charges' when it comes to the PC calculation?
Does anyone know officially that the tax isn't part of 'other charges' when it comes to the PC calculation?
I can't say I've noticed any difference in liquidity since those of us who were barred from trading were barred.
Likewise the increased commission didn't really make any difference.
I'm having no trouble getting set.
I suspect unfortunately that we'll just have to move on and work around it.
I don't think liquidity will change.
I just wish Betfair would target their marketing at mugs in TABS.
90% of them have never heard of Betfair!
Likewise the increased commission didn't really make any difference.
I'm having no trouble getting set.
I suspect unfortunately that we'll just have to move on and work around it.
I don't think liquidity will change.
I just wish Betfair would target their marketing at mugs in TABS.
90% of them have never heard of Betfair!
Can you imagine a new big punter coming on here have a stack of $50k bets at 1.01. At end of week he could be jumping up & down at winning $20k only to get a phone call from BF saying he owes $40k in turnover charge
& Kye the sympathy factor would be ZERO, reap what you sow & all that
whoopi
Id say it has already gone down on the markets i look at
Id say it has already gone down on the markets i look at
whoopi, the increased commission will slowly erode the liquidity. You probably won't notice in first 3-4 months. Every dollar taken out of punters hands is another dollar less they can bet with. Some of the long term winners will slowly become long term losers & give the game away. i think it will impact big in long run.
& of course this new charge will just add to the problem.
& of course this new charge will just add to the problem.
interesting they chose 50 markets as the cut off - I guess one option to avoid it, for those that have to, is to bet on less than 50 markets - you will get a few days off each week to spend with your family and friends 
it might actually push the amount of layers up in the run which might give backers better odds, basically if you stay above 1.4 to 1.7 depending on your % of discount you shouldn't ever pay the charge, however that is easier said then done.
The problem with Betfair is they tried to do the right thing, I thought a countries rulings or legislation could only be enforced inside the borders of the country which the legislation was written. Betfair didn't use their internet advantage enough. Why didn't Betfair continue to use Australian race fields names and just stay out of obtaining a license. I don't like Betfairs motto of obey the authorities when they are an internet technology. Australian Law has no jurisdiction in the U.K whatsover. Run it from the UK. This is the perfect time for **** to up it's services to Australian racing and stick your thinger to racing NSW. Technology will only advance and sadly no one in the world will use Betfair to profit from Australian racing and sadly Australian Racing will not get paid. I can't believe that one stupid, racing NSW member could stuff up the racing industry this badly. Betfair and Exchanges are the future of online gambling, do you think any member of the iPad generation is going to go into one of those disgusting TAB outlets, absolutely not. IF this ruling stands this isn't just the end for Betfair but Racing in Australia might not survive the next 100 years, but what does Peter care, he only cares about the next 20.
Flaw in your argument is that they can make it illegal for the user in Australia to use the service.
Most of us don't want to be criminals
Most of us don't want to be criminals
BF Australia appear to have given up. Our only hope is basically they give up their license and trade from a "gamble happy nation" where they can trade to their hearts content. And if they don't, no doubt somebody will.
The message I got, was there was too much money spent on court already, so there would be no further action. This is the action from a shot duck. And I think we all knew that when NSW trading continued, rather than a boycott at all costs to prove to other states to not take that tax on board.
Make no mistake, liquidity will be effected. Hugely. SA will be the new betting capital of Australia.
People can say whatever they like about traders making no difference to liquidity, but the reality is seriously different. Trading on NSW markets has been rife since the beginning of this charge. There were minimal people getting the call to not trade, and there were plenty still going. I have a few trades on NSW where I didn't get a call, mostly out of instinct. Without wanting to "blasphimy", old BF endorsed(at least at one point) badger himself(just because some people believe his hype of some sort of trader) is advertising his services of trading showing his trading profits on NSW markets, showing that trading wasn't outlawed, just frowned upon by certain people.
With trading now outlawed, or at least restricted to 50 markets per week, we will see a big decline in liquidity on Aus racing for all states concerned. Within the next month, liquidity will be ridiculously low. Punters will leave, traders move on to different endeavours. Make no mistake, this is a big thing, a big call, and big proof that BF Australia is doing no more than cashing in until the cattle has all been slaughtered and then they will simply shut up shop to protect their shareholders. Unless we can get in play betting on sports happening soon, it may be too late, and betting will be left to the mugs. The great will survive as their margins are so big, but anybody that came out of the woodwork when BF turned up (such as myself), will be gone and buried, unless they can adapt and evolve.
That is obviously the plan, but easier said than done. See what happens I guess.
The message I got, was there was too much money spent on court already, so there would be no further action. This is the action from a shot duck. And I think we all knew that when NSW trading continued, rather than a boycott at all costs to prove to other states to not take that tax on board.
Make no mistake, liquidity will be effected. Hugely. SA will be the new betting capital of Australia.
People can say whatever they like about traders making no difference to liquidity, but the reality is seriously different. Trading on NSW markets has been rife since the beginning of this charge. There were minimal people getting the call to not trade, and there were plenty still going. I have a few trades on NSW where I didn't get a call, mostly out of instinct. Without wanting to "blasphimy", old BF endorsed(at least at one point) badger himself(just because some people believe his hype of some sort of trader) is advertising his services of trading showing his trading profits on NSW markets, showing that trading wasn't outlawed, just frowned upon by certain people.
With trading now outlawed, or at least restricted to 50 markets per week, we will see a big decline in liquidity on Aus racing for all states concerned. Within the next month, liquidity will be ridiculously low. Punters will leave, traders move on to different endeavours. Make no mistake, this is a big thing, a big call, and big proof that BF Australia is doing no more than cashing in until the cattle has all been slaughtered and then they will simply shut up shop to protect their shareholders. Unless we can get in play betting on sports happening soon, it may be too late, and betting will be left to the mugs. The great will survive as their margins are so big, but anybody that came out of the woodwork when BF turned up (such as myself), will be gone and buried, unless they can adapt and evolve.
That is obviously the plan, but easier said than done. See what happens I guess.
In That race at Melton just run
60 K matched when they jumped
82 K matched after IN Play
this is with 1.30 FAV in the race
id say 12 months ago that there would have been 100 K matched when they jumped on that type of race
60 K matched when they jumped
82 K matched after IN Play
this is with 1.30 FAV in the race
id say 12 months ago that there would have been 100 K matched when they jumped on that type of race
I think you are overreacting BJT. The premium charge No 1 and 2, plus the increase in commission, had very little effect on liquidity. I can't see why this increase will be any different.
I could be wrong but as I said before, the liquidity provided by traders is a mirage.
I could be wrong but as I said before, the liquidity provided by traders is a mirage.
And Nickw that is a racing area/jurisdiction that has no plans to go t/o, so we're all in trouble.
Withdrew everything out of my account today after about 5 years trading. So long Betfair!
Interesting points about stuffing Racing in Oz. As you know it's a JV, so Crown would have to pull out. And BF don't appear to want to go anywhere.
What I don't get is when the purple mob starting fielding on races here it was met with an almighty outcry by racing (and even AFL I believe) they were threatened with 60k a day fines. But why would they have cared? As you say how would they realistically get them to court.
Additionally whoopi...I know what you're saying about stopping, but the Aus govnt hasn't yet. And may never.
Why doesn't the largest sportsbook in the world operating from the Caribbean get threatened by Aus authorities? They are offering a service illegally aren't they - yet they go through an Aus bank account!
What I don't get is when the purple mob starting fielding on races here it was met with an almighty outcry by racing (and even AFL I believe) they were threatened with 60k a day fines. But why would they have cared? As you say how would they realistically get them to court.
Additionally whoopi...I know what you're saying about stopping, but the Aus govnt hasn't yet. And may never.
Why doesn't the largest sportsbook in the world operating from the Caribbean get threatened by Aus authorities? They are offering a service illegally aren't they - yet they go through an Aus bank account!
It'll be interesting to see what the story is in, say, 2 months. Far too early yet IMHO.
Also you have yet to get Vic and Qld racing out to see the full impact on traders.
The world will be watching this one I'd think.
Also you have yet to get Vic and Qld racing out to see the full impact on traders.
The world will be watching this one I'd think.
Out of your mind anybody writing off the impact of traders because of the NSW liquidity, considering it was still a traders market. Yes the story was traders weren't happening, but the reality is very few traders were barred, and plenty were still active. This, in essence, is much much different.
By: whoopi
Date Joined: 18 Sep 10 Add contact | Send message When: 27 Jul 12 11:12 Joined: Date Joined: 18 Sep 10 | Topic/replies: 2,959 | Blogger: whoopi's blog
Flaw in your argument is that they can make it illegal for the user in Australia to use the service.
Most of us don't want to be criminals
they will never do this whoopi, because if they did, they would have to ban every foreign account betting with Australia betting firms according to the WTO rulings. plus how would they ever police it.
Date Joined: 18 Sep 10 Add contact | Send message When: 27 Jul 12 11:12 Joined: Date Joined: 18 Sep 10 | Topic/replies: 2,959 | Blogger: whoopi's blog
Flaw in your argument is that they can make it illegal for the user in Australia to use the service.
Most of us don't want to be criminals
they will never do this whoopi, because if they did, they would have to ban every foreign account betting with Australia betting firms according to the WTO rulings. plus how would they ever police it.
if i may also add, with all this talk about liquidity??? do u really think BF arent seeding markets
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