Are betfair likely to quit Australia?

Those previous two posts Joel should answer your question.

Point taken if true. I don't frequent the forum much. My comment was based simply from perusing some of this thread

sleepy, when members make outrageous statements and dont back them up, why shouldnt they be taken to task???

loggy it seemed to me that you requested information from Spandy and you figured the best way to get it was to bag him out. Kinda schoolgirl tactics for me but who am I to judge.

really sleepy, i just didnt see the point in making a statement and then not giving the proof (domain) to substantiate that statement, ok maybe i did attack just a little, but it really wasnt aimed at greeny it was aimed at happyvalleys statements and the statement by some jerk about the government of australia starting and running an betting exchange.

I don't see how anyone can take a thread seriously that starts with "I was told at dinner the other night"

Perhaps, but he owes no one on here anything and to be honest I asked Green Spandex a couple of questions on another forum and he was quite helpful. It is only my opinion but if you want respect first you have to show it, but I am not here to give lectures.

VK - if you can't take it seriously what are you doing posting. The fred started that way because that is exactly what happened

Logroller - you are quite wrong though obviously not just content in your own ignorance but positively wallowing in it

Fairy - I didn't say it was betfair who told me anything, I said I was told by someoone and I was interested in the views of others and for some reason the likes of logroller and Village Idiot have done their best to take this fred into the gutter

GreenSp - thank you very much for doing your best to put the fred back on an informed footing, similarly Sleepless

And Log and Village the non-Chinese site I have referred to is named by at least two posters on here, so what more do you require as to its existence

Now why not get out of the gutter and get back to the debate, ie

1. What's the informed view, will Betfair lose

2. If so what's the informed view on their likely response.

I don't have any prior knowledge but a couple of racing pros I know well and respect feel the only response will have to be for them to withdraw as they won't be able to provide the funding on their current margins

Happy Valley

You have never put forward any reasons to back up the statement that Betfair is almost certain to withdraw from Australian racing.
You request others views but have never put forward your views or your dinner partners views on this issue to allow replies.
As you state that no rep from Betfair was present I am most interested on what information was used to come to this opinion and publish same in a forum. 
I leave it to you put forward your parties views on this issue

so what i get from this thread is that GS will reveal all at the Xmas dinner Ziggy will be organising

"And Log and Village the non-Chinese site I have referred to is named by at least two posters on here"

where have I posted I don't believe spandex or the existence of any of these sites?

IMO....anyone who opens a thread with "I was told at dinner the other night" then provides nothing to substantiate these "claims" is a BIG NOTER

then belittling whiskers who is one of the best blokes here and a long term contributor makes you look an even bigger tool Happy Valley

Thinly veiled "I know something you don't and I'm not going to tell, nyah nyah nyah" thread...IMO...but I do stand to be corrected..

So what's the verdict on the local scene? If BF pull the pin and no bookies will take a bet does the industry die through lack of interest?
Everyone's supposedly making a killing but nobody can place a decent bet. Something doesn't wash.

I don't know, I'll see if I can find something out at dinner tonight.

fairy - if you read my posts i think you'll see that my view is that betting exchanges are great for punters as they represent a cost reduction, akin to an advance in technology but they are not good for racing in general as they lead to funding problems for the sport due to the margins at which they operate, i think betfair are likely to lose their appeal, i really don't know what they'll do should this happen which is why i was asking for others views

i think betfair's actions in response to any appeal loss might depend on whether in australia they are a separate entity to betfair in general. i don't know the answer to this. hopefully one of my admirers on here such as the Village Kid (who seems to have a dubious fascination with my tool) or Logroller will be able to answer this

also what is wrong with throwing a dinner topic out into the forum for general discussion - clearly not much as it has elicited a considerable response, some very worthwhile until the usual ignoramuses arrived with nothing to contribute but lots of juvenile insults

Village - just one additional point, I never knowingly initiate any insulting exchange on the betfair forum, my jibe at whiskers was in response to his jibes (plural) at me.

ok happy here's the deal , i'm pretty sure i didnt deny the existence of Asian betting exchanges, what i did take exception too was your comparison of them to Betf, statements such as MASSIVE, HUGH exchanges out of Asia taking up the slack in all the Asian regions, with facing clients of 6bill.

this is simply not the case
most forum readers may or may not be aware of the exchanges out there in cyber space with no discernable geographical home, such as C!tibet and aabet.
so lets speak of these on a open gambling forum such as this, and give what we know to be fact and not just a good throw away line.

firstly these 2 above exchanges are agent driven betting platforms, which means you can only have access from introduction from whomever, all intro's are on going commission driven and r serviced according to intoductee's recommendations of credit limits and settling, as well as discounts on losing wagers. They are not licensed under any government jurisdiction that i am aware of and therefore have only themselves to answer to regarding disputes, they are not subject to any form of rules and regulations including money washing and id checks. However they are the new technic version of the telephone SP (illegal) bookie and they do stay in business simply because they offer a good personnal service, just as the aussie SP's did 30years ago.
Cit!bet have been in business for some years now and the other u may allude to not so long, so lets compare the more established of the 2 to betf to determine their relevance in the betting exchange market place. A big part of these asian exchanges is their fixed odds/tote betting on the HK and Japan horse racing and in sports predominately soccer fixed odds, so at best maybe half their handle/turnover is true exchange betting which they may or may not seed themselves (iwould bet on may) Betfair handles 80% +++ of the know exchange market throughout the world and to obtain that they have about 400,000 visits a day to their site world wide, the next best being ****QQ at @ 60k visits a day. Now in comparison c!tibet have around 4000 visits a day (this is all avaliable data)
to give u an analogy L uxbet have about 4000 visits a day and where r they on the scale compared to a sportsbet or sportingbet.....if c!tibet have 1/100 the amount of visits to there shop than BF......wellllllll. on the same sort of data BF r ranked in global net sites just outside the top 10k while c!tibet not 200k.
also the biggest attraction to these sites for the asian's besides credit is that their is no paper trails, the asian's are still reluctant to hand over details to 3rd parties (unless of course they are false) and still much prefer to bet and settle in cash.

so happy its not that i didnt know about these exchanges its just that i wanted to see how far u would dig your grave with exaggeration....my estimate about waste high


loggy has left the building

i can't help doubting whether you truly knew about these other exchanges before this fred started,

and the chinese betting sites are not exchanges but just betting sites, to the best of my knowledge, but they do operate at lower levels of takeout via the offering of rebates,

i suspect you have gone away and done your homework and indeed this is a welcome postive contribution to the fred, 

but then you spoil it all with this entirely gratuitous "dig your own grave nonsense" which doesn't advance sensible, constructive debate. i'm also at a loss to what it refers as all along i've just been interested to hear informed views on this upcoming appeal and the consequences of it should betfair lose, and current conventional wisdom does appear to be that they are likely to lose.

We seem to already have the decision made for some reason...I personally can't see how a high court could simply agree to a model that virtually put's a Business out of play so to speak...Obviously BFs design of an exchange is the way of the future and is a successful format...The only floor is how to tax it so to speak for it's licence....I'm sure the high court will see through the veil of Vilandy's crafty case imo.....simple accountancy really.

it's not quite that easy Lazza - should a company decide how much "tax" it pays or should the authorities - it could open up some interesting precedents

in saying that, the model has clearly been designed to lock Betfair out which is anti-competitive and hopefully unconstitutional

The turnover model for Bookmakers lends itself to race fixing....which inturn creates higher turnover...which inturn lends itself to the Authorities turning a blind eye to the corruption..(unless of course a Jock breaks the whip rules ffs lol)

the bf case was based with the corp on interstate restaint of trade ... which at least one of the judges put to question during the brief ... in relation to internet activity (which is not restrained by borders)

once that determination is out of the way next month .. if unsuccessful for bf ... should hopefully then proceed to a full and final 'legal' determination as to what actually constitutes 'turnover' ... when comparing corps etc to a completely new and innovative betting model such as bf's 'exchange' system

my market on the pending court desicion..........sportsbet/betfair win 4/6............NSW racing 5/4

oh, and happy very gracious of u to admitt your exaggerations, now their not betting exchanges but betting sites, anyways gl

market wrong way round imo
I am thinking of starting a small business, but I wrote a letter to the tax dept saying my business will not be sustainable if I have to pay 30% company tax - I told them I was willing to pay 11% only - I will post when I receive the reply....

You only need a creative accountant Dos, anyone can afford 30% company tax if they don't make a book profit

Is it a tax on turnover? Or profit?

my point is you can't set up stumps and then want the posts moved to suit ur game

lazza your incorrect, the case will fail because everybody pays the tax. so there is no restraint of trade on that - the money the tab receive back is not connected to that legislation, that is determined by a separate contract between racing and the tab as compensation for the race fields legislation double taxing the tab.. and that is what was found in the last decision and hence bf lost

I told them my business was not sustainable at 1.5% they said - change ur business model, hard to argue wit

nsw racing 1.10 imo

if NSW win, i dont thing betfair will withdraw from the Aussie market, maybe their exchange will die but with a data base of clients that they must have i suspect they will start to become a conventional bookmaker and offer fixed odds betting on sports & racing.

perhaps

Just buy tote tas, put commish down to 8% on all pools and watch the rest of them die

they cant do that uncle, Tabscab will just expell them from the pools.

Thx Unclee...All we can do is wait and see..Obviously the legislation doesn't allow for the exchange format.

all very interesting, i do think that whatever the outcome the cat is going to be thrown well and truly amongst the pigeons, great stuff

logroller just relax or perhaps mature, this is not an i'm right, you're wrong fred

and just to underline, this decision is going to have fundamental implications for betting in Australia, both in terms of how it is carried out and also in terms of how revenue is returned to racing so the more it is openly discussed and debated, the better because it is a crux issue, imo

If Betfair lose I anticipate in the future I will have to "pay" more to have a bet.

black caviar v betfair

spot on hal ... that is the whole crux of what is going on

the filthy punter is nothing but a blight on the industry and a flea sucking parasite of the poor breeder's and owner's product ... and the punter should fund the whole fkn circus ... that is the view of the industry big wigs

the industry want our money and for any poor antiquated product service they can offer (sc@b etc)

... we have no collective voice .... womble start up a punter's union immediately then send us out on strike ... we can win this dirty war yet 

Well said TB

happy your a condescending little turd

in fact the worst betting product ... on horseracing .. available today ... is the rubbish pretend horseracing that is put on by Racing NSW ... the metro races there off season are a joke

R-NSW should be offering all punters a 1.5% REBATE just to invest on their 'guess who will get the soft lead today' racing product

so tote tassie couldnt run their own pool, based only through the net/corporates

no way uncle, just like a betting exchange a Pari Mutuel platform will not work without liquidity

ill cry if betfair give away aus racing

how will you know the tryers from the non tryers prior to the jump if betfair cease.

Anyone who bags Logroller is a DEAD SET CVNT!

manikato... sad but true.

logroller please try to stick to the topic in hand

Interesting thread ....big picture for a moment ....conventional wisdoms and long agreed alliances(monopolies) is what is being challenged....the game is up though for the para-mutual model ...which I will note basically was started by govt's to compete with SP Bookmaking, or to capture market share. This cash cow is dwindling in the face of stiff competition from other sectors ( Pokies etc ) .

Speaking to market forces in writing buisness, if politics of free market economics are applied , BF is just another competitor in the marketplace with the corps , Tab's , bookies etc.

The turnover model of charging "for the product" doesn't support a competitive and a free trade market ....simple as that

doubleagent try reading the fred from the start, then you wouldn't make yourself look like a cvnt

the tab was set up initially to DESTROY sp bookies and divert their cash economy into the governments budgets. It created a laarrge trough which has attracted many snouts in the past fifty years. The snouts dont like competition, and now that it has arrived, it must be squashed. Thats what racefields legislation was all about and our wise old owls (written laughingly)at the highest level of australian injustice will see to it that it continues.

happy, the only thing in your hand is your little pea

logroller and doubleagent, are you that insecure.

Happy comes up with a terrific thread and a very important one. Your replies are rude. He bats you back into touch which irks you. He also seems to have a decent command of the English language of which you seem envious, and your only resort is to be lavatorial or adopt the stance of the schoolground bully.

Good on you Happy for holding your ground and persevering with good, very enjoyable thread. I'd forgotten all about this upcoming appeal and the possible consquences.

Very LTU - I agree with you. I think vested interests will prevail. Sadly.

allblack, get a room with happy.................. how the fck did u detect envy ffs, let me ask u this, what did the condescending happyvalley contribute to the thread besides pose the question? besides his ill informed opinion and his exaggerations.

AllBlack, aaaaaaaaaalways shootin off your mouth

First post in NINE YEARS

i don't bother to post, usually, because of what is it Happy calls you, yes ignoramuses like you and let's face it, you are really one and the same, Spoon, Log, DoubleAgent

Amongst other things, Happy makes it very clear to me the problems of operating on low margins and making a proper contribution to racing and the inherent contradiction therein.

You babble along your endless, witless insults and are guilty of your own accusations, no meaningful, positive contribution, just destructive insults that eventually bring all interesting, worthwhile threads to a halt and act as a general barrier to intelligent, meaningful discussion on this and other forums

I have nothing against you Happy, but why are you talking about yourself in the third person

terriffic post Happy. Absolutly spot on.

The sooner the dimwit non contributing just hurl abuse posters are gone the better.They  usually self destruct sooner or later.And don't they just hate it when you push back at them

fortunatly the aussie forum has many many forumites who are happy to debate and contribute.you just have to put up with the logjam of flotsam and jetsom as well.

Happy Valley = All Black imo

classic
happy

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Joel

Happy, having need to support your own argument all by yourself

Credibility.............. sunk

TURDS everywhere but at least flotsam and jetsom  KNOW when they're talking shitt

It's a skill

lolololol Gold

By:  All Black Date Joined: 10 Jan 03 When: 23 Nov 11 03:37 Joined: Date Joined: 10 Jan 03 | Topic/replies: 1 |

logroller and doubleagent, are you that insecure.

Happy comes up with a terrific thread and a very important one. Your replies are rude. He bats you back into touch which irks you. He also seems to have a decent command of the English language of which you seem envious, and your only resort is to be lavatorial or adopt the stance of the schoolground bully.

Good on you Happy for holding your ground and persevering with good, very enjoyable thread. I'd forgotten all about this upcoming appeal and the possible consquences.

Very LTU - I agree with you. I think vested interests will prevail. Sadly.


Rate reply: AIMING FOR " I AM MENTALLY SUPERIOR ".... ill fated though




By: logroller

allblack, get a room with happy.................. how the fck did u detect envy ffs, let me ask u this, what did the condescending happyvalley contribute to the thread besides pose the question? besides his ill informed opinion and his exaggerations.

Rate reply: IRONY coming up,..................... SOOOOOOON

 


By: This user is online. THERE....IS....NO....SPOOOOON

AllBlack, aaaaaaaaaalways shootin off your mouth

First post in NINE YEARS


Rate reply: Irrelevant.....as I am flotsam


By: This user is offline. Happy Valley
Date Joined: 20 Jul 02 When: 26 Nov 11 04:38 Joined: Date Joined: 20 Jul 02 | Topic/replies: 886 |

i don't bother to post, usually, because of what is it Happy calls you, yes ignoramuses like you and let's face it, you are really one and the same, Spoon, Log, DoubleAgent
Amongst other things, Happy makes it very clear to me the problems of operating on low margins and making a proper contribution to racing and the inherent contradiction therein.

You babble along your endless, witless insults and are guilty of your own accusations, no meaningful, positive contribution, just destructive insults that eventually bring all interesting, worthwhile threads to a halt and act as a general barrier to intelligent, meaningful discussion on this and other forums

Rate reply:  OH DEAR, GOLD!!!



By: Joel
Date Joined: 14 Feb 04 Add contact | Send message
When: 26 Nov 11 04:40 Joined: Date Joined: 14 Feb 04 | Topic/replies: 7,213 | Blogger: Joel's blog

I have nothing against you Happy, but why are you talking about yourself in the third person

Rate reply: When Joel forms a full sentence....... somethings up You know it...



By: Mrben
terriffic post Happy. Absolutly spot on.

The sooner the dimwit non contributing just hurl abuse posters are gone the better.They  usually self destruct sooner or later.And don't they just hate it when you push back at them

fortunatly the aussie forum has many many forumites who are happy to debate and contribute.you just have to put up with the logjam of flotsam and jetsom as well.

Rate reply: Oblivious



HAPPYBlACK

HALL OF FAME NOMINATION ??????


(you can share it )

classic...........allblack, and happyvalley forgot which account/forum name he was repling under.

and another typical reply from nanna ben

Loggy, NINE YEARS ......... blown in NINE SECONDS

Still pmsl

can u beleive this goose, couldn't hold the charade for a handfull of post, the funniest give up i have seen for a long time here

CLASSIC, totally busted, confirms my "pretentious w@nker" comment

And well done Joel, on picking this up...you're a legend.

oops...

LOL unbelievable!!!!


Hey MrBen I've never thought Logroller or Spoon or Doubleagent to be abusive posters.
As I recall it was MrBen who was barred for 'hurling abuse' LOL!

Oi...Get back on topic you lot !!

I was told at dinner the other night that Happy Valley and All Black aren't the same person.

Very interested in some informed views.

Perhaps the High Court will make a judgement on it whilst handing down their Betfair decision.

TTT

here's the thread ya couldn't find, Happy . Ten seconds with a gold detector and.............beep beep....wallaaaaaa!! GOLD detected

Perhaps you should just invite AllBlack around to dinner and ask him when the case is heard.

Interesting re-reading this thread....

Happy Valley - on the off chance you read this, are you a member of Citibet or IBCBet?

even besides all the banner/discovery this was a good thread

LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE



Happy Valley

05 Dec 12 16:06
Joined:
20 Jul 02
| Topic/replies: 1,536 | Blogger: Happy Valley's blog


Village Kid and Joel - here you go spoiling another thread, no wonder there is so much less proper conversation on here compared to other forums

And I repeat, I did not post as All Black, however it may appear, nor am I All Black

Nothing on this thread proves that i am All Black imo.

I'll settle this once and for all ...


I'm All Black.

Now ... does anybody know if Betfair is likely to quit Australia?

I'm AllSilver and don't ya forget it.

Betfair left Australia ages OK and went to Tasmania ya slowpokes.

Is Village Kid actually a kid?

No, he's an idiot.

Shouldn't you be viewing the weight loss thread?

It may help your seating issues.

Joel at least I have a life and don't sit here all day everyday posting on every thread!

I feel sorry for you

Why? I have to do something in between winning money.

And I don't post on every thread.

'Twas a classic!!

Ttt

He's not really an idiot, I hope he understand I was just talking in jest.

Am I missing something here?

What brought this old topic back to the Top Of The Pops?

Phil,

Joel has struck problems with his re-entry Visa to Australia, something about a restraining order.

His vicious attack on VK further up the page, left the victim no choice and understandably traumatized.

At Joel's mums tearful request.....I have offered a vehicle for him to apologize and mend that fence.

Current negotiations are at a sensitive point. Please respect their privacy, at least until Joel is home.

Whatever happens, I don't believe BF will quit Aussie racing (not permanently) it will be a question of finding a model that works for all parties. That could mean a 6% "tax" on each lay and that would curtail the traders somewhat, percentages increased to 120% (ish) country and provincial racing and 112%(ish) metropolitan.

PPhil - i was thinking the same thing myself.

OK, I have been choking on eating a certain number of my words in this thread.............................

To happy/allblack and greenspadex I am happy to chug down some of the non belief I had thru out this debate, under the info that I have come across of late.

Indeed it seems the sites our there (c!tibet,aabet,sbobet) do turnover/handle and bet billions of dollars (mainly soccer) I have recently talked with a few Asian guys about the size of these betting sites and read a very interesting book regarding the betting habits of the Asian communities. I do have faith in what I have been told and that is that these sites have t/o of more than  3-4 billion dollars a week, now that is more in a month than all the Aussie bookies turn over in 1 year. I have been assured that the betting on soccer (even sh!tty little games in Africa and S-America) have huge handles of turnover. Bets (not exchange) of 1million dollars are not uncommon. However the greater majority of betting is only after a game starts and thru out in run.

It seems that all clients are agent driven and id's under an agent is only a number, with no discernible identification.

For those who have not read this thread, it is well worth it, strongly debated, spirited and plenty of sh!t thrown.

excuse me while I dry reach a few more words