As Koala showed in his figures the major winner at the last election was the Greens - the move is to the left, not Abbott's hard right politics - times they are a changing

If times are changing......

Why did a centre left party (Labor) lose its majority here?
Why did Labour lose hard in NZ?
Why did the Republicans belt the Democrats in the US?
Why did the Conservatives form govt in the UK?

I mean, to suggest there is a move to the left based on a minority protest vote to The Greens is fanciful.

it won't be easy Jez, I agree BUT i can picture quite a few Liberals not following the HTV card

Sister hey, is she single??? [;)]

I will say though, it will be very very interesting.

I love elections.  Can't wait for next Saturday night.

I'm sure ABC News 24 and Sky News will have rolling coverage.

Not handing out HTV's for The Greens womble?

Bob would be disappointed mate.

You should be a member womble.

Saturday involvement is only on election days.

Let your voice be heard.  The only way to change party policy is to become involved.

They don't just talk politics - I mean the Libs have plenty of functions, dinners and BBQ's - I'm sure the Greens do the same.

I still manage to punt, play sport, do some shopping, drink plenty of grog....and all the other important.

Oh and spend time with the Mrs. 

Liberal party bbq's etc - I can think of about 1 million more enjoyable things Jez

fair points though

ffs, I can actually picture you, Bob, Christine and Lee Rhiannon around the campfire.

ffs....now we pick Liberals from their names



She has a lot to learn does Sarah Hanson-Young.

In all seriousness though, I reakon the Greens, if they are to be viable will need people who are NOT economic terrorists and SLIGHTLY SLIGHTLY moderate, such as yourself wombleoz to begin to dominate the party if it is to grow politically, rather than just survive, politically.

The Liberals decision in Victoria if a precendent, really hurts the Greens in terms of getting bums on seats in Parliament/s.  It's been alright up until now, but the fact is a minority vote has been landing (recently) lower house seats - all this may be about to change.

Surely you would recognise wombleoz that if the Greens are to be credible in any way, shape or form, they must move to the centre at least A TAD.........I mean the people that are beginning to take hold of the party are fkn extremists - thats the only way they can be described.

I think the decision is a good one. 

It may not be as strategic as the alternative, but its certainly a positive on the point of principle.

I mean the conservatives preferencing an extreme left-wing party

They may be a "newer" style, but they have a deeper and extreme leftwing ideology.

Booze kicking in.

*he keeps a lot of the extreme elements subdued.

NBN heat is on and it'll keep rising
Paul Kelly, Editor-at-large
From: The Australian November 20, 2010

THE broadband network has become a make-or-break test for Gillard Labor. WHILE the idea of a National Broadband Network retains popular appeal, this issue is undermining the economic reputation, financial credibility and governance standards of Gillard Labor.

Labor is going to pay a high price for its icon of the future. Its model has been criticised by the federal treasury, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development and a range of industry operators. Labor will not subject the NBN to independent scrutiny, opposes any cost-benefit analysis by the Productivity Commission and is delaying release of the NBN's business plan.

What does this tell you? It means Labor has something to hide. It means that its cherished NBN, its trump card against Tony Abbott at the election, the policy that was pivotal post-poll at swaying the rural independents to Labor, is cracked at its foundations. The government's justifications this week for refusing greater scrutiny of the NBN were weak and unconvincing.

New opposition communications spokesman Malcolm Turnbull has made significant progress recasting this debate into a financial governance issue. The Coalition, having been outmanoeuvred on the NBN during the election, was emboldened enough this week for Abbott to launch a sustained attack. The critical vote for Labor came on Thursday morning when the House of Representatives voted 73-72 to defeat Turnbull's bill to submit the NBN to the Productivity Commission.

An opposition success would have been lethal for Labor. The vote showed a razor-thin yet firm political majority for the NBN, with Labor supported by Green MP Adam Bandt and three independents, Tony Windsor, Andrew Wilkie and Bob Katter. The final independent, Rob Oakeshott, voted with the Coalition.

Knowing he faced defeat, Turnbull's summary before the vote testifies to the transformation of this issue. He said: "The government, in pursuing the NBN, are confusing the means with the end.

"They have established as their goal the building of a fibre-to-the-home national network for a cost of $43 billion to 93 per cent of households. That is the means. The end is the provision of universal and affordable broadband across Australia.

"It is clear enough to us that that goal of universal and affordable broadband can be achieved for a tiny fraction of the $43bn bill that the NBN will involve, but the government does not want to know that and so it has resisted this legislation and refused to have it referred to the Productivity Commission - this notwithstanding that the government's principal economic adviser, [Ken] Henry, has said on many occasions that every major infrastructure project should be subject to a rigorous cost-benefit analysis and any that does not pass that test necessarily detracts from Australia's wellbeing. And, of course, the government established Infrastructure Australia to do precisely that job of prioritising, analysing and performing a cost-benefit analysis on major infrastructure projects. So common sense dictates that this project, the biggest of them all, should be subject to a rigorous cost-benefit analysis."

The national parliament voted no to reject Turnbull's case. Julia Gillard's justification is that the Coalition is playing a delaying game as part of its plan to try to wreck the NBN. The real point, however, is that Labor is irrevocably tied to the NBN concept. It has hitched its political fortunes to the NBN. It cannot unhitch them and it cannot invite more criticism and analysis that will tarnish the idea. As Labor's standing sinks, it clings to the NBN as "the vision thing" that unites the party and wins the public.

The government boasts about its superior economic report card from the OECD, yet it is reduced to feeble obfuscation over the OECD's critique of the NBN in the same document. While the OECD said the project may "significantly improve internet services within a relatively short time frame", it warned against a "de facto restoration of a public sector monopoly"; it highlighted the risk of forestalling superior hi-tech options; it criticised a weakening of competition in wholesale broadband services; and it called for both a more prudent approach from government and a "better assessment" of NBN's "costs and potential benefits". In short, the OECD distrusts the model.

Communications Minister Stephen Conroy said this week that the NBN will be a key nation-building project, stimulate the economy, boost productivity, transform service delivery in health and education, and connect our big cities, regions and rural communities. Got the message? In short, it is Labor's saviour. The NBN will make or break the reputation of this Labor era.

A series of bills is needed to give effect to Labor's telecommunications vision. This week the House of Representatives voted on Conroy's pivotal reform of separating network ownership from retail operators.

Turnbull has helped to bring the Coalition to acceptance of this reform, recognition of the Howard government's mistake in privatising Telstra without a competitive marketplace.

The most important question, however, is unresolved: does NBN constitute a viable project? Turnbull in his means-ends distinction smashes Labor's public relations defence. The government, in effect, asserts that because universal broadband is a virtue, Australia must have the NBN. This logic doesn't work. The proposition has not yet been demonstrated. Indeed, Labor is determined to avoid any such demonstration.

When the independents (Katter excepted) decided post-election to install Gillard as Prime Minister, they put much emphasis on the need for financial transparency, political accountability and responsible policy costing.

Abbott was traduced for his campaign costing errors. We were solemnly told the Coalition failed to meet the financial transparency standards required by the independents. Yes, they laid it on thick.

Cut this week to Turnbull's comment after the vote against his bill. Labor, he asserted, had abrogated its responsibility to taxpayers and consumers. They had been "supported in this recklessness" by Bandt, Windsor, Katter and Wilkie. Laying his charge, Turnbull said: "Every anti-competitive act by Labor's vast new monopoly communications carrier will be the direct responsibility of those who voted to duck their obligations to consumers. Every misstep, every setback, every failure of the reality of the NBN to live up to Senator Conroy's promises will be the direct responsibility of those who voted against transparency and independent analysis."

Turnbull and Abbott have set their trap in the cold light of day. Every NBN problem will be sheeted home. The critical issue will hinge around pricing. Gillard insists that under the NBN internet prices will be cheaper. Turnbull's charge is that a gigantic monopoly means "less affordable broadband", so Australia's digital divide "will get deeper and wider". Another case of Labor stacking more costs on households.

There is no escape from the core conundrum: Labor boasts the NBN as the nation's greatest infrastructure project, yet denies the inquiry to test whether it is financially viable.

Defending his stance, independent Windsor has offered several justifications. First, he told the ABC the nation had "fiddled round with this long enough" and had lost the best part of a decade. It was time to get cracking. Second, cost-benefit analysis was difficult and if done on the Snowy Mountains Hydro scheme then probably "it wouldn't be a viable operation". Third, the NBN offered great benefits for the country and his constituents and, not surprisingly, he had no objection to the cross-subsidisation taking place.

This is the basis on which Labor's grand concept is proceeding. It reflects a culture deeply embedded in Australia's politics and history: the invocation to a nation-building far too important to be impeded by economic assessment or notions that funds might be better deployed. It is a generational throwback as a public policy to the spirit and rhetoric of the old Country Party of John "Black Jack' McEwen and the old Labor Party of R.F.X. Connor, big men in stature and ideas who would never allow a cost-benefit analysis to stand in their path. The trouble is that the flaws in their public policies are now documented before the world.

At week's end Abbott, arguing for release of the NBN's business plan, said the last time Labor said a policy was "too important to be delayed" was the pink batts program. He asked: why was the government so keen to steamroll the parliament into making the most important decision of this term without the evidence?

Yes, the heat is being applied on the NBN and the temperature will keep rising.

Labor.  It's a mess.

Today marks the third anniversary of the election of the Labor Government.

In 2007 Labor promised “conservative” economic management, cheaper petrol and groceries and strong border protection. Today, Australians instead look back on three years of debt, waste, incompetence and higher living costs.

Labor inherited a $20 billion surplus from the Coalition but now, after only three years, has an $80 billion debt. The Government is borrowing more than $110 million every day to fund reckless and wasteful spending like its school buildings program and its disastrous home insulation scheme. This is putting unnecessary upward pressure on interest rates.

To make matters worse, right now Labor plans to spend a massive $43 billion on a broadband network without releasing the business plan and doing the basic prudential work to make sure Australian taxpayers receive value for money.

The Government is threatening our most important industry by introducing a mining tax that will inevitably flow down and put further cost of living pressures on Australian families. And the carbon tax Labor is developing with the Greens will have an equally brutal effect: higher electricity prices for families and businesses at a time when costs are already going through the roof.

Weakening of Australia’s border protection policies has led to the arrival of 190 illegal boats. Our immigration detention centres are at breaking point, with the Government ditching its election promise not to impose new onshore facilities on unsuspecting communities. Meanwhile, Ms Gillard continues in vain to spruik her proposed East Timor processing centre, while ignoring the only real solution: stopping the boats.

Broken promises have been a hallmark of the Labor Government. Fuel Watch and Grocery Choice were scrapped early on. Only 38 of the promised 260 child care centres were committed to before the program was axed, and just four of the promised 59 GP super clinics are operational. The “great moral challenge of our time” was put on the backburner when Labor scrapped plans for an Emissions Trading Scheme. Ms Gillard’s ‘Citizens Assembly’ has also been axed in favour of a carbon tax.

Labor’s policy chaos has brought instability to its leadership. Ms Gillard had a hand in every decision made under Kevin Rudd’s Prime Ministership until she and Labor’s hidden powerbrokers decided the Government had “lost its way” and that Mr Rudd had to go. The bitter leaks and backstabbing that have followed remind us that Ms Gillard is never far away from facing the same fate at the hands of Labor’s factional bosses.

This is a Labor mess three years in the making.

Most concerning of all, Labor still has no plan to grow our economy, help small business and create jobs for Australians. Julia Gillard has no agenda other than her own survival. And as Tony Abbott has highlighted, we may have Labor in office but it’s the Greens who are really in power as they set the direction of the Government.

The big promises, ‘fresh thinking’ and ‘new paradigm’ have been pushed aside by the Government’s incompetence and inability to put Australia’s interests before their own.

Australians deserve better.

Rethuglicans are the political enforcement thugs used as tools by wealthy individuals associated with big business and their political agendas. Their dogma is that of capitalism and anyone who questions the dogma is attacked voraciously as ignorant and is considered a terrorist, communist or completely insane.

The Rethuglicans primary concerns are the protection of wealth of the super rich, which have mostly inherited wealth akin to hereditary rule over successive generations. A typical part of their dogma is their indoctrination that all life is based on survival of the fittest, see Social Darwinism and Fascism, and only the fit deserve to exist. And their concept of those fit for the environment are those who have wealth, while all those who are poor are simply supposed to work for works sake in producing more wealth for the wealthy. Anyone who isn’t willing to work for the corporate agenda is a parasite and should be removed from society as an unfit whiner.

The dogma of rethuglicans is that their utopia can be achieved if the constitution didn’t exist and every action taken by an individual in society was motivated for the sole purpose of generating profit. The taking of profit from another person by force if necessary is acceptable as long as the people are not part of the wealthy establishment they represent. A person incapable of defending himself or herself obviously doesn’t deserve anything and should be eliminated from the genetic pool of the species, especially if seen as a potential threat.

Rethuglicans enjoy trickle down economics, also know as pissing on the people economics. This ideology point of view is obviously taken from someone of wealth who believes they are giving value to an undeserving recipient. These recipients are taught to be grateful for the trickle down and never question nor bite the hand that feeds them. It is a concept that they believe they feed the world and that all production comes from them alone and that the actual value of production comes directly from capital alone. All labor to a rethuglican is a unfortunate necessary evil that should be driven to the lowest common denominator without any bargain rights in any form against those who have capital.

A typical mythology associated with rethuglicans is the poor boy that got rich through hard work. The heroic figure is often without any value but a few spare pieces of change in their pocket and through hard work and honesty they create an empire of wealth from a few cents. Though it is more likely you will win the lottery than actually strike it rich in this manner the rethuglicans always find that one “proclaimed” hero and raise them up as the standard bearer to justify the capitalist system they promote. And just like a lottery system the odds are stacked against most individuals because obviously not everyone can be successful because this would make the wealthy poor.

Rethugicans hate any form of egalitarian philosophy and see such principles of liberty and justice as communist ideology to be destroyed at all cost. Any time the word liberty is used capitalism is tacked onto it like a pin on a donkey’s ass in the hope that association will twist the words so that people equate capitalism as being equal and exactly the same as the philosophy of liberty. All Rethuglicans believe that capitalism, or the pursuit of profit, is what liberty means and nothing more. Anything outside of the pursuit of profit is an enemy that includes the egalitarian philosophy of liberty founded in the constitution through checks and balances of those in power.

Since they can’t directly take over the country in an overt manner Rethuglicans have used privatizations and eminent domain as weapons of economic mass destruction within the United States. Any socialist political move for community is instantly hijacked for the benefit of Wall Street speculators and used to subsidize wealthy share holders for a quick profit at the expense of tax payers. This is the hidden philosophy of rethuglicans in that they actually believe in socialism but only for those they see as meritocraticaly worthy. This is often known as privatizing the profits and socialize the losses. And if they can’t defeat socialism they will always hijack it to add money in their pockets.

One of the most recent shock troopers of the rethuglicans was Jim Adkisson. These shock troopers are so filled with capitalistic dogma that they associate all economic failures with socialism or communism. They never take into account Wall Street sponsored capitalistic corporate labor arbitrage and free trade ideology as the problem. They never consider that a balance of trade is needed for a truly global competitive system to actually work. Of course the rethuglicans always use market arbitrage as a weapon because it is riskless profit for doing nothing of value but moving a few pieces on the chess board. And this market arbitrage can continue as long as wealthy foreigners keep subsidizing the US fiat dollar.

Rethuglicans leadership are often considered bafoons but are actually highly organized and dangerous criminal organization. These leaders understand the upper echelons of currency manipulation, mob manipulation, religious manipulation and are associated with all wealthy aristocrats throughout or global society. Their current primary desire is one world government through corporate rulership. The current presidents father, George H. W. Bush, called it the “New World Order”. And the current George W. Bush said boldly to the world that either You are either with us, or against us! Many people saw this as talking over the people and as a mark to begin transitioning into a global corporate state.
Concepts that surround Rethuglicans.

"Demoralize the enemy from within by surprise, terror, sabotage, assassination. This is the war of the future." - Adolf Hitler

"Humanitarianism is the expression of stupidity and cowardice." - Adolf Hitler

"I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature." - Adolf Hitler

"Struggle is the father of all things. It is not by the principles of humanity that man lives or is able to preserve himself above the animal world, but solely by means of the most brutal struggle." - Adolf Hitler

"He has a supreme intellect. I have known only two other men to whom I could apply such distinction - Lord Northcliffe and Lloyd George. If one puts a question to Hitler, he gives an immediate, brilliant clear answer. There is no human being living whose promise on important matters I would trust more readily. He believes that Germany has a Divine calling and that the German people are destined to save Europe from the revolutionary attacks of Communism. He values family life very highly, whereas Communism is its worst enemy. He has thoroughly cleansed the moral, ethical life of Germany" - Viscount Rothermere

"I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace." - George W. Bush

"Every nation in every region now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." - George W. Bush

“It’s Addington,” Mayer quotes Powell. “He doesn’t care about the Constitution.” - Reference to David Addington, Cheney's Cheney

“History suggests that capitalism is a necessary condition for political freedom” - Milton Friedman

“Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.” - Pat Robertson

“Capitalism has destroyed our belief in any effective power but that of self interest backed by force.” - George Bernard Shaw

“The cure for capitalism's failing would require that a government would have to rise above the interests of one class alone.” - Robert Heilbroner

“In the Soviet Union, capitalism triumphed over communism. In this country, capitalism triumphed over democracy.” - Fran Lebowitz

“If it were necessary to give the briefest possible definition of imperialism, we should have to say that imperialism is the monopoly stage of capitalism.” - Vladimir Lenin

“Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” - John Maynard Keynes

“Fascism is capitalism plus murder.” - Upton Sinclair

“Fascism is capitalism in decay” - Vladimir Lenin

“I am going to fight capitalism even if it kills me. It is wrong that people like you should be comfortable and well fed while all around you people are starving.” - Sylvia Pankhurst

“Chicago is the product of modern capitalism, and, like other great commercial centers, is unfit for human habitation.” - Eugene Debs

"If allowed to run free of the social system, capitalism will attempt to corrupt and undermine democracy, which is after all not a natural state." - John Ralston Saul

"Advocates of capitalism are very
apt to appeal to the sacred principles
of liberty, which are embodied in one
maxim: The fortunate must not be
restrained in the exercise of tyranny
over the unfortunate." - Bertrand Russell

"And while the law of competition may be sometimes hard for the individual, it is best for the race, because it ensures the survival of the fittest in every department." - Andrew Carnegie

"It's the survival of the richest, and the poorest be damned. There's something dismal about a society that operates by those values." - Robert Kiyosaki

"I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket." - Major General Smedley Darlington Butler about capitalism

Southerners did not stop with an open defense of slavery. They went on to attack northern society for its 'wage slavery' and 'exploitation of workers,' using arguments repeated by socialist critics of capitalism. The southern writer who developed these arguments most extensively was George Fitzhugh, a Virginia planter and lawyer. His two books were provocatively entitled Sociology for the South: Or the Failure of the Free Society and Cannibals All! Or Slaves Without Masters. In them, Fitzhugh defended slavery as a practical form of socialism that provided contented slaves with paternalistic masters, thereby eliminating harsh conflicts between employers and allegedly free workers. 'A Southern farm is the beau ideal of Communism; it is a joint concern, in which the slave ... is far happier, because ... he is always sure of support.' ... 'The best governed countries, and which have prospered the most, have always been distinguished for the number and stringency of their laws,' he wrote; 'liberty is an evil which government is intended to correct.' - Jeffrey Rogers Hummel

"Capital must protect itself in every way... Debts must be collected and loans and mortgages foreclosed as soon as possible. When through a process of law the common people have lost their homes, they will be more tractable and more easily governed by the strong arm of the law applied by the central power of leading financiers. People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders. This is well known among our principle men now engaged in forming an imperialism of capitalism to govern the world. By dividing the people we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us except as teachers of the common herd." - J. P. Morgan

"The untrammeled intensification of laissez-faire capitalism and the spread of market values into all areas of life, is endangering our open and democratic society." - George Soros

"Wall Street owns the country. It is no longer a government of the people, for the people and by the people, but a government for Wall Street, by Wall Street, and for Wall Street. The great common people of this country are slaves, and monopoly is the master...Let the bloodhounds of money who have dogged us thus far beware." - Mary Elizabeth Lease

"Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is, in reality, instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have property against those who have none at all." - Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations

"Capitalism is our only moral system. All other systems take advantage of man's rights and liberties." - Ayn Rand

“This crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil. An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation” - Albert Einstein

It would be significantly lower than under the current Labor government - but more importantly we would NOT have seen the brazen waste, incompetence and disasters that have been seen in 3 years under Labor.

And before you get on the spin-fest again, the Coalition supported stimulus but not the outrageous excesses splashed about by Labor.

You want me to go through the debacles, waste and incompetence from Rudd-Gillard Labor?

We can hypothesise about what the Coalition would of done - BUT they were not in power - and clearly Labor have made an absolute mess of every project it has attempted.

We wouldn't have the debt but our houses would be a lot warmer in summer, colder in winter. Our children - the future of this nation wouldn't have these splendid new facilities they now have, many of the people working in retail would now be out of a job, possibly many of them spending Christmas with nothing. Need I go on.

There really is no justification for saying the LIBS would have failed  with the GFC.They delivered an excellently strong economy with fiscal surpluses.Why would they all of a sudden be a  failure under GFC?

By: This user is offline. Da_Judge
Date Joined: 16 Dec 08 Add contact | Send message When: 25 Nov 10 04:35 yes mrben, only labour use propaganda ffs, thats the best i've heard so far

and thats your justification???

You murdered a guy so I can murder one too?

spin and incompetance remain so regardless of who is carrying it out.