Calling All Settlers DIV 3,2,1 and PREMIER

It`s something i`ve thought about in the past salmon, along with increasing the numbers competing.

i don't see how it is a problem?

As I have said before, being in the Prem is not important in the slightest, it is where you are in the rolling yearly naps table that is the only truly worthwhile measure of your ability.

And you wont get to the top of that by picking odds on shots every day of the year.

Josh Monk, Hong Kong Phooey, bosstipper etc,......they didn't go around napping Frankel and his ilk!!!!

It ain't broke so don't try to fix it!   (and my nap just won at 11/2 )

Only my 2nd month in the competition so my first question would be the handful of tipsters who are picking odds on shots just to keep themselves in the premiership day in and day out are never going to win the thing but are very unlikely to be relegated but how did they manage to get into the premiership in the first place?
Why dont the organisers have a trial from Jan 1st allowing a maximum of 2 odds on shots per calendar month and if a 3rd tip wins at odds on it is simply void and goes down as a -1 Also all odds on shots void on the final day of the month?

I agree with madhatter.  I don't have a problem with napsters selecting odds-on chances.  I would vote to leave things as they are.

1. Rather than add a point to odds against winners, settle at BFSP in the hope bigger priced winners are usually retuned bigger than ISP (though admittedly not always).

I like this idea best so far from GeorgeB. HKF will love that!!!!

I cannot understand why someone wouldn't want to have a swing on the last day from mid-table but that is a defensive mindset they may have become stuck into after months of grinding. In fact I noticed a midtable 'cruiser' jump onto an odds on first thing on the last day this month -  maybe he has some stats he is protecting, whatever, I don't presume to tell anyone what to do.

But this is in a league format, grinding is part of it,  same as getting an away point at Spurs.

In defence, and I am guilty of this, sometimes you aint got time to study bang in a Frankel as a time pressured option.

Another idea is to have last day rules every day.

Keep the thoughts/ideas coming troops.

madhatter said - As I have said before, being in the Prem is not important in the slightest, it is where you are in the rolling yearly naps table that is the only truly worthwhile measure of your ability.

I have to disagree here, the yearly naps table is a biproduct of a divisional competition, the yearly naps table reflects ability achieved in this competition. It follows therefore that the people in the bottom division will not be at the top of the naps table.

not sure i understand what you're saying ming?

I'm saying that a truer reflection of a tipsters worth is better reflected by looking at their rolling yearly total than how many months they have clung onto a prem place by largely picking odds on shots just so as to avoid relegation.
The misleading part of the rolling yearly table is that even good newcomers need to play for a year to incrementally work their way up the table...ie after 6 good months they wont be near the top because of the -60 they incur for the six months they haven't so far competed in, but this is needed or otherwise that table would be less meaningful if you just had 0.00 for all the months you weren't in it



However, I think the more important issue here is that the settling task is an onerous job in the first place (i did settle the premier division for 6 months a few years ago) and any changes such as limiting the number of odds-on shots you are allowed to pick, giving bonus points for longer priced winners, using e/w options or the BSP will make the task even harder for those people whose goodwill we already rely on to do the tables for us.

I agree with madhatter. Particularly the last bit.

I know Sundays are optional and very few post a selection but give a bonus if a Sunday selection wins - 4 sundays on average and most selections won't win anyway but a bonus for a winner on the optional day seems fair to me.

Only a small tweak in the overall scheme and won't make a huge difference from how thing are at the moment.

Do whatever makes it easier for the settlers imo - Tough enough getting tables together

One thing i would like to add because it`s been touched on above. I can`t speak for the other settlers but from a personal point of view i wouldn`t like extra work. It`s not the amount of admin but the fact that it`s everyday, regardless of what you have on at home/work so nothing that causes extra work really.

MADHATTER SAID - I'm saying that a truer reflection of a tipsters worth is better reflected by looking at their rolling yearly total than how many months they have clung onto a prem place

I get what you are saying pal and you agree to a point that the rolling table is misleading.

However the game being played is a divisional one and is played as such - avoiding relegation and attempting promotion / winning the title is the aim of this game.

If the goal was to be top the rolling table then the results would be different. Another way of thinking about it is to only run a rolling table then secretly form tables on results over a year - do you think people would have used the same selections? - of course not. I am not saying it is not indicative but to say the league is 'not important in the slightest' is way off the mark IMHO.

This is why Dubai's point is a good one - because whilst midtable in the prem why not shoot for the title on the last day?.... again I don't presume to tell anyone what to do with their selections - maybe they had an eye on the yearly naps table, personally I think it takes care of itself.

Maybe there should be a shift in kudos away from the naps tables and back on the prem to be honest - that is what we are playing..... uncoincidentally enough the rolling table winners get plenty of prem medals too.

Somewhere I am at the top of one naps table - now that's the important one....

If you're mid-table sure.
And on odd occasions I have done,which has got me promoted 4 times. Unfortunately these days I always seem to be in a position where I could go down on the last day         
I also think we need to keep it as simple as possible for the settlers. Anybody who wants something more complex should offer to run a Table or shut the feck up imo.

One things for sure Phishy when it come's to having a good ole moan you certainly are

R.E.L.E.N.T.L.E.S.S. 

perhaps you should be limited to the number of odds-on favourites you are allowed a month (perhaps 10 as is the case with instructions given for non-selcetions) and if you go over your allocated number, it automatically goes on the first favourite of the day that is not odds-on. Tough luck if your horse starts odds against but goes off odds-on but maybe a better way.

Just a thought. But somebody who is in the 3rd and who regularly just misses out on promotion is probably returning a lot more than someone in the premier just making sure they don't get relegated! I have had an ongoing arguement with a friend of mine who thinks that he is a superior tipster because he may be in division 1 on -£2.50 whilst I may be in division 3 on +£5 for example.

Surely the best tipster and the one deserving most recognition is the one who returns the most profit per month regardless of which league he/she is in. Couldn't it be arranged so that at the end of the month there is a combined table and the settling for the following month divided in to leagues of 4 (or whatever) based on position in the months final position in the table?

Believe it or not I am actually in favour of celebrating the more adventurous with extra points. Whilst at school I was always taught to play the game by the rules and the rules as they currently exist lead me to pick the safer horses (as does my div companion). However I have never picked Frankel and avoided yesterday's shocker with a 6/4 loser

How about -

Betfair put up £3K prize money or charge £25 per entrant

Betfair can can get a couple of celebs on board to promote it - it can 'rival' the RP version

Naps league runs from Jan 1 - Dec 31

There are no divisions

Winner - £1500

Runner-up - £1000

Third - £500

Or however it divi's up depending on entries / Betty donation

Napsters can nap what they like.

Just a suggestion...

Couldn't it be arranged so that at the end of the month there is a combined table? I think they used to do this pal - I have certainly seen a table like this in the past. I volunteer MOMM to do it. Do you think that whilst it might be an interesting table it would lack 'depth'?. At one time or another we have all called a big priced winner - all you are doing is highlighting this one time event more. If you can do that regularly you will be top of all leagues so no worries.

To be frank it would be an insult to the honour of my pristine selections to see them alongside the rabid mumblings of the gutter dwellers.

I'm sure all you blaggers are fishing - FFS - hook, line, sinker - I'm literally tail walking here!!

Soldieroffortune was at one time top 3 or 4 in the 12 monthly table, so he may argue he'd rather be tipping the shorties and showing a profit rather than 'guessing' with longshots and going on long losing streaks.

And in the real world, there are people whose M.O is to back shorties. Plus the odds-on tipsters / backers will point out that picking shorties does not assure / guarantee survival / success!

Each to their own, eh? Plus it will mean more Prem titles for DubaiPrince!

what about a relegation 'bye' - if you select a winner greater than 9/1 you are exempt from relegation.... they get a mark like next to their name....

wow - you could win the prem and get relegated lol.

I still think BSP is best, anything else I have seen so far is bubbles..... it's up to the settlers.

It is what you make of it and I like it as it is - I really had to work hard at my weaknesses in this league to get up there and the league system has helped me greatly so thanks for that.

Imo the only change viable is to use Betfair Sp, although this would mean extra work for settler`s and I don`t now have the time, hence the lack of write ups etc. I said earlier I will be most likely retiring my settling dutie`s at the end of the year, so any new young blood with idea`s that would like to settle Division 1 please let me know.

GEORGE - i contacted Betfair a while ago re cash rewards but they wern`t interested.

Worth a go, Shane. Shy bairns get nowt!

You can see what a difference it makes to the AW comp. Stick up a prize and you'll get the interest / more competitors.

And I suppose it will benefit Betfair if people have a reason to look at the races and end up betting their selections.

Of course GEORGE, i had what i thought to be a good idea which Betfair might back, but no. I never mentioned it before as i thought i needed to test the water so to speak.

No word on this thread from Reged & momms, where are you dudes?

I'm still thinking. A measured response will be forthcoming when I've finished thinking. Dude.

I have to close down now. Bye.

Do people seriously nap fives on shots

Couple of suggestions.

1 No duplicate selections for every day not just last. Not sure what happens with standing instructions like LRF though!

2 Have bonuses every day. 3 pts for longest price. 2 points for next longest, and 1 point for 3rd longest.

Although I often select a favourite, I try to avoid the 'real' short ones as it's hardly worth it and I think the OP makes a valid point. I guess one solution could be that if an odds on chance is selected and it loses, then the penalty is -2pts, not the -1pt as current. This would not create additional work for the settlers (well very little) and might encourage posters to be more adventurous in their selections.

Poeple  who fluke   outsiders should lose  pts
10-1 to 20-1  lose 5pts
20 -30 lose 5pts
30  upwards lose 10pts
This comp should  be  about skill
and not about pin  jobs

20-1 to 30-1  lose 10pts

I agree with Lampus.

I  agree with salmon.

Keep the views/opinions coming guys & gals. Whichever road we look to go down i feel it will be impossible to please everyone, as per the last time when changes were muted. So any changes would have to be minor and they would have to be incorporated into our automated spreadsheet if possible, someone with better IT skills than me would have to decide if that was possible.

i agree with salmon and lampus

Owzabahtthatthen         

I agree  with salmon heeore  and lam****
pin pickers  should lose  pts

Half the trouble is no-one is responsible / has been nominated as the rule makers.

Like my question about being allowed to pick in tomorrow night's BC, there's fecker to decide, give a yes / no.

Perhaps we need, say, 3 respected forumites / volunteers to decide how best to run the naps league? And what they propose is voted on by the rest of us in the league.

All these suggestions are meaningless if there is no-one to give a yes / no.

Fwiw, settling at BFSP looks the best and fairest option, imo, if the settlers agree.

Sorry, I've been so busy I've only just spotted this. I will of course put in my six pennorth when I've had a chance to consider it all. Just one thing tho: I gather BSP prices every day. In fact, I have them before the race has finished. It's now actually quite simple - with Timeform the backup if it DOES go t*ts up (I actually started doing it because of the reverse problem - Timeform not completing some results on the day). So if people were thinking along those lines I don't see a problem for settlers.

GEORGE - i decided quickly re Breeders cup selections. As i said, i personally don`t mind but i have to stick rigidly to the rules for obvious reasons. The rules can be changed and in this instance for next year.

I`m not too happy with the suggestion of three respected forumites deciding on the running of the naps league.

Regarding the naps comp, it`s a very difficult area and one i`ve given alot of thought to. So what i`d like to suggest is putting BSP to the vote.

can I put my six pennorth in first pse?

Only you'll have to wait cos there's tonights stuff to settle first!

I don`t like the idea of penalising people who select odds on shots in whatever shape or form.

Shane, guess I'm thinking of how well run undecided's comps are. He decides the format and rules, which of course happen to be logical and fair, and those of us who compete in ud's comps are happy to do so.

As for the naps league, I haven't a clue who decided the rules and who is responsible for making decisions ie there is no go-to forumite.

If we have a query in one of undecided's comps, we know who to ask! Do you see what I'm getting at?

Same with richardf's or Stu's AW comps - there is someone in 'charge' to make decisons.

This is what the naps league lacks imo!

Re. The naps league rules. They just follow any normal Naps table rules. Not sure whether the last race rules were introduced at a later date to prevent tactical napping.

I believe the leagues may have been started by non other than Ratpack a long time ago in a distant galaxy...

Of course GEORGE, i`m more than happy to settle any disputes/queries of which there`s been plenty over the last two years.

How about a fifth goal in the Brighton match?

Must say shane that for obvious reasons I've always seen you as the capo di settlers ...

and a jolly good one too, in every sense of the word

I`ve always been of the opinion that i`ll listen to anyone with a decent suggestion. As stated above we have a very good format and i don`t think we need to make wholesale changes.

The best idea has to be changing from isp to bsp imo.

You cant please all of the people all of the time.
You are doing a good job lads its just a bit of fun and if somebody wants to have a 1/3 shot everday to finish mid table thats not a problem.
Any idiot knows the best punters are the punters that show the most profit over time not the most winners.
Changing the rules may cause harder work for the organisers and yes it is a bit of fun trying to climb the divisions but at the end of the day whoever shows the most profit at the end of each year regardles of what league they are in is the champion punter of that year in my eyes.

i still think it ain't broke so leave it alone

and petemac is spot on...it's not what division you are in that matters, it's your overall profit in a 12 month period that shows your ability

I'm in favour of the betfair SP thing if it's not too much hassle for the settlers.

My real bugbear is the Sunday rules. One of two days that I actually get to study the form, and it's pretty much worthless with respect to the Naps comp.

I'd change the rules as follows...

i) Sundays are treated the same as every other day.
ii) Everyone gets five (or another number) days worth of grace per month, for which non selections are counted as no bet (as is currently the case for Sundays), rather than losing £1.

I've frequently pulled stumps because I've missed a couple of days for one reason or another, and can't be assed to continue. Given that Sundays need settling anyway, I don't think it'd be that much of an issue.

One of the problems is that different people approach the naps competition in completely different ways - as is clear from some of the posts here - but in my view that's one of its great strengths.

-- for some it's about showing they are the top napster of the month or year with big-priced winners
-- others like to nibble away with more winners at lower prices, maybe not to prove anything more than they can make a profit
-- for others it's simply about surviving in a competitive structure
-- I'm sure some just like posting naps each day and not a few who just post their favourite tipster
-- what would you do with tightfisted and grok who, certainly when they were in my div, religiously posted the longest RP losing streak napster?

Which of those is not valid? And how necessarily would you tell anyway? And how would you police it? The Naps Comp is meant to be fun for everyone, and everyone gets their fun in different ways. And, speaking as a settler, I think it's as complicated as it needs to be already.

I joined the comp because I thought I ought to if I was going to be a settler. I never imagined I would get promoted, let alone reach Div 1. When I was in Div 3 I wasn't really fussed, so punted some fairly big numbers (and was stunned when some of them won). Now I am in Div 1 my thoughts are different, because I am competitive. So maybe at the start of the month I'll punt some bigger numbers and see what happens. But as the end of the month approaches, if that hasn't worked (), like my football club Ipswich, my prime concern becomes avoiding relegation (3rd bad managerial choice in a row doesn't bode well). And yes, if that means backing Frankel on the basis that at least I don't get the dreaded -1 that inches me nearer the drop, then I'll do it. But that and all the calculating and plotting involved, makes it fun for me. Is that wrong? We can't all be god's gift to napping!

I do wonder about all the odds-on shots that are punted, simply because by my analysis they lose overall (bit of a layers' paradise if you know what you're doing IMO). And I am surprised by those in the top half of the Premiership who don't make more of an effort to grab the title. But won't they eventually get found out as new blood rises to the top - watch out for that china castle fella for instance, he's not afraid to give it a go. And I've seen a few more go through my Div that I think will give you guys a run for your money (not madhatter though! ).

But even so, this is a divisional structure and that inevitably skews the nature of the competition away from a pure 'top napster' comp. If that's all you want then everyone has to be in the same division, so the intent is clear and relegation  is not an issue. But that would make it an entirely different competition.

I do not like the bonus points idea at all. It's more work for the likes of us - maybe not a lot, I don't know, but there's enough to do as it is. And it just makes it more artificial. If you want a competition that discriminates against short priced selections then simply ban them. Do the reverse of our lay comp, which has a ceiling of 7 BSP, and say no entries below 2/1 or whatever. But that would again make it a different competition, upsetting the traditions that have been set in  this and any comparative record-keeping that people do. And who would police the prices (and how)?

The idea of moving to BSP has merit and should be quite easy to do. This is on a Betfair forum after all! But again, you would lose all comparisons with the past. And I always say, beware the law of unintended consequences. For instance, who's to say going to the higher BSP prices wouldn't actually make short-priced nags more interesting for many people, not less?

HTH

Having thought about it I am now against moving to BFSP. Like Reged I have experience of running a laying comp using it where you have to cap it at 7s,8s or whatever. The converse is actually capping 50s shots imo.

MADHATTER SAID - i still think it ain't broke so leave it alone

100% agree.

It is a resounding success.

The leagues generate 1000 posts per week and 5000 views per week.

For those thinking the leagues aren't a fair reflection of ability then the last rolling naps table showed that 16 of the top 20 napsters were in the prem.

It is run so well that we have practically zero issues - unheard of. Some people need to a grow a pair and be thankful.

Betfair Starting Price.

This would require some major changes to one of the very complicated spreadsheet macros.
At the moment, if you want to use decimal prices you would have to use a combination of decimal and fractional prices in order for the macro to work. i.e. a 1.95 winner would have to be entered as Won 0.95/1.

Personally I don't like decimal prices, but obviously it would be a step in the right direction if you want Betfair to put up some prize money. Bear in mind though that if they did, there would be many more participants which would mean more Divisions and therefore more settlers needed (and no hope whatsoever of Shane ever getting back to the Premier).


History Maker's idea about Sundays is an interesting one, but once again it would require some very major changes to one of the spreadsheet macros.


No duplicate selections is also an interesting idea but would add to the settlers' daily workload which I'm sure they'd all rather see decreased rather than increased.


Who's in charge? An interesting question and one I've asked a few times. I've no idea. Take me to your leader.


[this is not my aforementioned measured response; just some thoughts on one or two comments posted so far. I'm out for most of the day but I will endeavour to respond either tonight or tomorrow]

and Ming, for those of us (me and petemac!) that are more interested in the rolling tables then, so long as undecided keeps doing them for us, then we can all be happy!

Morning all

Just read momms & Reged`s posts amongst the others, some very valid points have been raised and really can`t think of much else to add.

I entered the comp for fun, banter & rivalry and i`m pleased to say i still enjoy all three otherwise i`d jack it in, settling as well. We do have a great competition & structure and as mentioned above promotion/relegation is a vital feature.

BSP is a minor alteration but i realise this doesn`t really address peoples need for change.

At present i feel we have four very good settlers who show devotion to the job and i really hope that pdb will continue, he would be a great loss.

As far as who`s in overall charge, obviously we police our own divisions. For issues relating across all divisions i see no reason why all four settlers (along with all the competitors opinions/views taken into account) can`t come to a decision.

So, with that in mind lets go forward.

I feel we should leave things as they are, though i would consider a switch to BSP if two other settlers wanted that.

Anyway, enough of this serious stuff, lets pick some big priced winners.

undecided is very much respected and i`d value his opinion too.

1. BfSP - please

2. No selection - no loss (as in RP Naps table - if more than 10 non selections, automatic relegation at end of month else LAST RACE FAV used especially on last day of month)

3. Keep leagues - I follow RP napsters who at end of season change from 3/1 favs to 60/1 no hopers just to win the comp... they don't care about their readers - Chris Wright of Liverpool Daily Post especially. 

4. What the hell, I'm retiring soon

You're always retiring!

On the last day turn the table upside  down
to  give more people a  chance  to  win  the comp

Viva  Fairness

i personally,dont like to back every day,but a no post is a -1, so find myself having to.thats why posts of 1/10 or down to 1/3,come in to avoid the -1.simple as.i always back the head of the market,+good form+market moves ,i dont follow napsters,my way of backing,is relentlessly boring,some go odds on some drift,drifters are my bug bear.dont get the sunday optional at all,last 3 days in the month always produces long odds flukes,to get promotion ie lordy/.exellent thread though REGED.

A simple answer would be to relegate and promote more people
Example
Relegate bottom 8 from the premier,promote top 8 from div 1 and relegate bottom 10,promote top 10 from div 2 etc
This would force some to be more adventurous with their selections and make it harder to stay in any division for long.

As a newbie I would have to say leave the system as is.

The reason being that the settlors have enough to contend with without making any changes leading to more work for them.

Everyone has their own system in selecting their daily nap and good luck to them.We were all aware of the rules on signing up so why should they be changed now.

Just my very humble opinion.

mr ferrett,

I would think the opposite?

Somewhat bigger leagues with therefore less chance of relegation would encourage people to be more adventurous surely?

Still think it is fine as it is though.

Mad.

A socialist utopia Lampus, could work well for me

thanks shane, I have read all posts with interest and will put my two penneth in when I get a few moments.

Nice one undecided, look forward to your views.

I vote for keeping it as it is, everyone knows the rules and it is a good competition in all leagues with the different styles. Don't change it it ain't broke

I've read all this and given quite a lot of thought to it, started writing all the pros and cons, found myself rambling on, so there are acres of rough draft notes I'm not going to bore you with.

Reged summed things up pretty well.

Bottom line

This competition has been running, very successfully, pretty much since Betfair forum started, before my time even, that's years of proven performance and numbers of players has held up pretty well.
The structure is a good mix of longer term interest, yearly tables, and shorter term excitement, monthly goals, as well as being manageable for the kind souls that devote time every single day for our enjoyment.
I would suggest that players can find their own path of enjoyment within the current format and try to remember that not everyone has the same mindset.
If the negativity in the Premier bugs you and you can't shut it out, then I'm pretty sure there is no rule to say you have to reside there, drop out, rejoin in Div 3 and enjoy.

The suggestion that caught my interest was switching to Betfair SP.

I'm ready to be corrected by the more knowledgeable, but I think that standard SP disadvantages those looking for the higher odds because there is an EW element bringing down bookies odds and it affects bigger odds more so than shorter, in general.
Betfair SP being win only should give "truer" odds and give that little extra incentive to be more adventurous, or at least reward those that are without the unfairness that artificial bonus points might bring?

I can think of other disadvantages to BFSP though.

Perhaps shanelee1966, PRODELLBOY, man of many moods and Reged should decide between them if they wish to put a possible change to BFSP to the vote, bearing in mind it could be more hassle getting BFSP and inputting it (Don't worry about the spreadsheet for now, I'm fairly sure we could adjust it to take decimal odds).

If so, start a thread where everyone can post pros and cons, and then hold a vote open to all.

Well said that man ... shane, you OK to organise that? Obv shout if there's anything I or others can do to help.

Will do Reg

Some good points about
& everyone has a right to their opinion

Dubai (OP) is quite right in his comments
Only 5 of Prem ended up in profit in Oct
Doesn't really stand up as a Premier comp !!

From what i have seen when i decided to have a look at comps was that there was a very poor success rate all round
Check yearly tables - think it was less than 10% in profit
Reged could throw more light on this as may have some figures ?
Altho dropouts, name changers etc will have affected that

Each to their own system as has been said in many posts
My mindset is trying a few diff ideas in a competitive environment per month
Its proved very hard btw to stay profitable with one a day

Conclusions -
The system has been around for a long time
People know how to play the system (I don't see it myself but hey its free world)
I've seen the long term odds on figures as Reged says & they pants !
Maybe they run tipping lines & Betfair Premier Division has some clout or status significance ?
Which ones Thommo btw ?
Its a BF forum so why not use BFSP - AW comp has just got some financial backing (so they say- evidence not seen from a BCM btw) so why not the cream of comps - this one btw

Its really down to the poor standard of (consistent) tipping that has led to this debate
If the bods below are good enough then the Prem stars will have to shake there game up - China Castle etc as mentioned
If the lucky big hitters were consistent enough they would be winning the leagues every month
Its down to the rest of us in leagues to make it interesting
& a very big thanks to all the settlers for their unpaid VOLUNTARY hard work sorting all the stuff out

Suggestion -
One poster put up what may be a good idea
May have been done before ?
A Monthly review where all leagues are combined
Settlers to decide what is possible or not ?
This may keep some entrants longer altho it may be their minus accounts that make them not come back

From this - A Wild Card into Premier for highest profit per month
If its Prem then status quo
If its Div 1 then status quo

Wake up call for all
If you tipping daily & not making a profit
Sayonara !

IN FAVOUR OF BFSP
STARTING JAN 1ST

I`m not.
Pinstickers paradise imo. A 33-1 ISP can be 100s BF. Everybody else gives up.

Playing in Divisions 1, 2 and 3 is very different from playing in the Premier. The object of the exercise is to gain promotion and move up through the Divisions to the Premier. This competition is not about finding who the best overall monthly or annual tipster is. It's about winning the Premier title in any given month. That's the challenge. It's all about tactics on a monthly basis, not an annual one.

Winning Divisions 1 ,2 or 3 is very much a secondary goal which players really only have a go at once they feel they've done enough to secure promotion. Sure, it feels good to win a Division but it's not something we pay much attention to. I don't ever recall seeing any lists of Divisional winners other than the Premier. It's not important, whereas promotion is. And you can get promoted with a total of say £5.00 when the Div winner has scored £45.00. It's a big difference, but to all intents and purposes you're on an equal footing - you both get promoted which was the ONLY object of the exercise. Odds-on selections can play a very important part in gaining that promotion, whether it's simply to try and hold position on the table sometimes by not slipping down £1, or to string a few of them together and make a bit of movement up the table. It's all about tactics, and as I say, odds-on shots can play a significant role in Divs 1, 2 and 3.

It's a different game in the Premier. Just being in the Top 4 or 5 counts for absolutely nothing. There's nowhere to be promoted to! The only thing which matters in the Premier is winning. To achieve that you have to find quite a few decent priced winners, and we all know how tough that is. And with only 25 players instead of 30, it's all too easy to be near the top of the table one minute and then suddenly 3 days later you find you're battling to avoid relegation. And yes, a lot of the Prem players do fight hard to avoid relegation. The ultimate goal is win the Premier, and you can't win it if you're not in it. So odds-on shots can be a vital part of that battle for survival for some players.

On the last day of August I was in the top half of the table but with a negative score, and needing at least a 33/1 shot to win the Premier title. I couldn't find one and any random winner I managed to pick at that price would have been an outrageous fluke and not the way I'd want to win. So I settled for trying to finish in the black with the yearly tables in mind. Which I did with an 8/1 winner. And I daresay I'm not the only one who's ever thought like this even though the annual tables are not actually a part of the monthly competition.

So, banning odds-on winners? No. They have their role to play.
BSP? No, definitely not. Too much difference in the outsider prices.

The ONLY thing I can see which would make a difference and bring back a bit more of a challenge to the Premier would be rewarding placed horses. Make every selection, whatever the price, £1ew instead of £1 to win. This wouldn't be a choice that the player could make. It would be compulsory. So it would be of little advantage to odds-on selections but would give a small but significant enough bonus to players prepared to take more of a risk in the quest to win the title. There have been many times when I've found a suitable ew chance, but have had to go for a shorter price instead simply because there's no reward for a 16/1 shot finishing in the frame, beaten by only half a length.

The more I've thought about it, the more I like the idea.
When I get a chance I'll pick an old month at random and see what difference it might have made (bearing in mind that selections would have been very different if this rule was in force).

yes to bsp,i dont use bookies.

Excellent post MoMM. Very interesting idea at the end.

I disagree with those in favour of the Industry SPs because it's a measure which incorporates each way bets, whilst betfair SPs, and the naps comp, do not. I think that, in an ideal world, either betfair SPs should be used or people should be allowed to bet 50p each way (choice not compulsion). I far prefer the BSP idea though.

If either is too tricky to implement, then forget it.

I am strongly opposed to either bonus points or banning odds on shots.

I understand the reason for Dubai's original post.  Having had a couple of years out of the premiership, I got promoted back into it ealier this year and was staggered at the number of odds on shots that are now being posted, which just looks like  survival tactics to me.  I for one want to win it, and not to just survive, and I guess that the current tactics reduce the likely winners and so should be good for me

The one change I agree with is MOMM's suggestion that the stake each day is £1 e/w.  This would reward those going for the longer priced ones that just get beat, which requires more skill than picking a 1/5 shot.

A fantastic read this thread has been with some very interesting ideas/thoughts being put forward and of them all i very much like MOMMs idea of making your selection a £1 ew stake which seems a win win situation to try and freshen things up a bit.People have argued the case that it takes a certain skill to pick the right odds on shots which is fair enough comment -but on the other side of the coin it takes a bit more bravado and no less skill(indeed i would say even more skill) to find a bigger priced selection but as it stands with the current "criteria" in the Premiership being one of survival at all costs i felt (as clearly many others do) that it has become demeaning to the spirit of the competition .People have said that "if its not broken then no need to fix it"-however the very essence of entering a competition is surely to try and win it or am i missing something there and too many people make no attempt whatsoever to win it even if they are relatively safe using the yearly totals as an excuse to hide behind when offering up their reasons for their selections when in fact the yearly totals are meaningless as all newcomers are penallised 10pts for every month they have not participated in during the calendar year so unless you have been around for over 1year then you are unlikely to "trouble the judge" as it were .
All that is happening month on month is that as people get promoted to the Premiership the vast majority get to the stage whereby they are posting up "safe" selections following the crowd as it were which to me is having a negative effect on the competition and thats why i suggested a shake up to the format.
To use football as an example when it started to become too negative they came up with the idea of 3pts for a win rather than the 2 on offer which was met with cries of disapproval in many corners from people against change .But whether you think of football as a sport i think its hard not to argue that a simple change brought new life and vigour to the leagues .
So as previously mentioned why not look to try something new from the start of the new year and what better way than to implement the £1ew stake whereby the "odds on punters" could play safe as per the norm  for the draw but  those that wanted to go for it could be suitably rewarded for going for it .
Again though just my opinion and i will abide by whatevers decided  but as it stands at present things will only continue to go in a negative way within the Premiership as i see it  .
Great debate though all the same

MoMM a good write up. It seems to be just the premiership that needs a change and i agree with your suggestion for a £1 e/w nap for premiership only but i believe this should be by choice not compulsory, we all think we are good tipsters who are supposed to know what we are talking about and for anyone interested in joining us i dont think a look at the premiership table seeing a £1 e/w bet on a 4/9 shot would look like anything other than a JOKE why would we be putting a bet on like that? It would not be a good advertisement for new recruits. It would make the competition look farcical.

You sound just like your brother-in-law Dubai Prince.

Ok Salmon you aint taking the bait, good night.

Thats rather the point though petemac as i see it -the current situation is crazy in the Premiership as people are getting promotion to it and then quite quickly just falling into the "survival at all costs mentality" to the detriment of the competition.Yes its hard to get there which probably explains peoples reluctance to be relegated but by freshening it up and making it more a game of skill -after all a placed 16/1 shot in a "pinstickers" impossible to fathom hcap would return a better return than tipping up the obvious 1/6 shots day in day out would it not -and look at the other side of the coin-if you were taking chances on bigger priced horses but bombing out all the time you are losing 2pts per selection whereas the "safe " punters would be making hay -but just that one simple tweak to the rules woulkd liven up the whole competition and breathe new life in it right upto the end at both ends of the tables right to the end of the month

Strange comment  salmon spray?  -you have lost me -im just voicing an opinion on what i feel is wrong with the current state of affairs with the competition -you seem to have a different view which is fine but lets not be getting personal eh ? -its supposed to be an open debate is it not. I have no intention of getting into a betfair forum fight with anyone hence the reason i rarely post - i have made my views clear and i have enjoyed reading other peoples thoughts on the matter -nothing more nothing less
Good night guys and i look forward to reading other views tomorrow

Its difficult and it didn,t go unnoticed that Hong Kong Fuey was forced into picking a 1/3 shot last month.

Do you remember who your brother-in-law is DB ?
And I think at least one person is making it personal against me.

Sorry DP. I must have been round the vodka           

I think the naps comp works perfectly well as it is. If people want to nap odds on chances then why shouldn't they, though I don't think it's a method that would suit me, as you need to be right far too often in order to show a profit.

I virtually never back a horse that is at under 2/1, so I certainly wouldn't be putting one forward as a nap.

Clearly remaining in the Premier is a goal for some players and is obviously an excellent measure of consistency. That is just not my aim in playing.

I can see the logic in switching to Betfair SP, provided it was practical and the settlers were able to make the change without increasing their workload. However, it is obviously something that in theory would favour my way of playing and if the majority prefer to stick with the present format that's fine by me.

The one change I would like is introducing a minimum requirement for the number of naps per month (25, except 24 in Feb, perhaps) and getting rid of Sunday as an optional day. During the winter the racing on Monday is generally poor and weighted heavily in favour of all-weather in which I have no interest at all. Sundays often feature good jumping cards, particularly in Ireland. If the weather resulted in a blank day, then the monthly minimum could be reduced by one.

The idea of replacing the optional Sunday rule is ok, except the current rule means a nice light Sunday for a settler, which is frankly a bonus.

Reged,

good point, and one that has to be paramount in all this discussion. We're extremely lucky that the settlers give up their time in the way that they do.

As the person who suggested the Sunday change, I should stand up and be counted...

I'd happily take on Sunday settling for a division or two if that change was made. I'm running Excel 2010, so if the spreadsheets are compatible with that, then I could take it on. I couldn't promise to be quite as prompt with an up to date table as the current settlers are. I'd aim for midday on Monday except for the last Sunday of the month which I'd make a proper effort to get up as soon as racing ends. If Reged is happy to give that a go we could trial it on a non-promotion/parallel basis for Div 3 in December, and if it seems popular implement it fully in January for division 3 in January.

The idea is definitely most pertinent to Div 3 because I suspect that a lot of people lose interest when they miss a couple of naps and just stop betting at the bottom end. I say that because I've done it several times in the past. If the comps were run on the aforementioned 25 bets a month basis, I'd probably have been a constant participant for the last 4 years or so.

You are actually allowed to have 10 unnamed selections per month. I appreciate people haven't always got the time or simply forget on odd days but certainly in the premiership quite a lot of people have standing instructions to meet such eventualities and I presume Reged does the same in Div 3 if asked.