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undecided
20 Nov 11 17:45
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Date Joined: 12 Jul 02
| Topic/replies: 29,732 | Blogger: undecided's blog
Never mind a gambling addiction, I think I've got a competitions organizing addiction! Shocked

There's 64 of us minus a few, a nice number for a knockout comp, so after this coming last round of the Team Tipster Comp, I'm inviting you all to take part, starting 10th December, Saturdays only, running through to the final at the end of January (stopping for Christmas).

Round 1 (last 64) - 10 Dec
Round 2 (last 32) - 17 Dec
Round 3 (last 16) - 7 Jan
Quarter Finals - 14 Jan
Semi Finals - 21 Jan
Final & 3rd place play-off - 28 Jan

The format will be like Mully's old comp if any of you remember that, I'll post it here when finalized.

Can I ask you to confirm if you wish to take part, no later than Friday 2 Dec.
If a player does not turn up then their opponent gets a bye or any known shortfall in numbers, I will make up the 64 by special invite.
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Report DFCIRONMAN November 21, 2011 9:15 PM GMT
I'm in ....Cheers UD
Report FCH November 21, 2011 10:57 PM GMT
Count me in
Cheers UD
Report dunter1 November 21, 2011 11:54 PM GMT
I'm up for it UD
Cool
Report One Shot 2 Shot November 22, 2011 7:21 AM GMT
Count me in UD
cheers
One Shot
Report lester pickit November 22, 2011 9:22 AM GMT
count me in UD Grin
Report Mully November 22, 2011 11:53 AM GMT
TTT Cool
Report GEORGE.B November 22, 2011 3:09 PM GMT
Count me in please

Cheers UD
Report KBGJ November 22, 2011 3:55 PM GMT
Count me in please and also The Grey One said he is up for it too.
Report Mully November 23, 2011 10:26 AM GMT
TTT- just replied UD to your message. Cool
Report werbie November 23, 2011 10:43 AM GMT
Count me in also ud . Excited
Report undecided November 23, 2011 11:06 AM GMT
thanks Mully, one more Q for you then I'll post up the format.
Report mini me November 23, 2011 11:35 AM GMT
Yes please!

Cheers
Cool
Report undecided November 23, 2011 11:51 AM GMT
Confirmed Still to decide Special invite Standby
undecided a bit dizzee Mully bluenose7
DeSSieReborn bally2711 Weaver Fish zipper
Ming_the_Merciless barny
shanelee1966 book
Andrew in Sweden bosstipper
Ricky Santini cgull
mr d ferret de44ek4
Fidway Deep Impact
pedro39 feed the goat......(doubtful)
hong kong fooey foxy
Moose fundamentalist
Oshun Fynanse harleelin
salmon spray hoof hearted
stewpot jbarnes (no not him)
ryanwe jimnast
PRODELLBOY johnn
Lampus krl
razmos MALTWHIX
the dealer man of many moods
bettysboy Mark Sloan (doubtful)
billy onions miscreant man
dukeofpuke Muqbil
DFCIRONMAN platinni
FCH Quito
dunter1 Ra Nova
One Shot 2 Shot shearer2therestcue
lester pickit THE MUFF FUFFLER
GEORGE.B therobster27
KBGJ Tingle Creek
The Grey One twm.
werbie unluckyStu
mini me
Report cgull November 23, 2011 4:49 PM GMT
I will try to remember!
Report Mully November 23, 2011 8:29 PM GMT
Replied UD-just found it Silly
Report undecided November 23, 2011 8:44 PM GMT
Here's the proposed format, Mully kindly recapped for me how he used to run his ko comp, I've tweaked it slightly and it's not set in stone yet so if anyone has suggestions I'm happy to consider.

Players will play each other on a knockout basis.
Each round will take place on a Saturday
Round 1 (last 64) - 10 Dec
Round 2 (last 32) - 17 Dec
Round 3 (last 16) - 7 Jan
Quarter Finals - 14 Jan
Semi Finals - 21 Jan
Final & 3rd place play-off - 28 Jan

I will pick 3 races, on the Thursday/Friday before each round, 2 will be NH and one AW, weather permitting. (This will be increased to 4 races for the semi-finals onwards).
Players will be required to pick one horse from each of those 3 races, no duplicates allowed within each match so first come first served.
All selections must be in by the time of the first race of that particular round.
Non runners/duplicates can be replaced up to the time of the first race. No reserves will be allowed.

You will get points for each selection's finishing position down to 4th place.
Winner = 10pts
Runner-up = 6pts
3rd = 4pts
4th = 2pts
Player with most points for all 3 races wins the match. In the event of a tie, the player with most winners/runners-up/3rd/4th placers in that order, will win through.
If that still doesn't separate players, or in the event of a 0v0 tie then we'll look at who had most 5th placed selections or 6th etc. and if that still doesn't produce a result then the player who posted their selections first will go through.

Example:
Player A has one winner, one 5th place and one 7th, that's 10pts for the winner and none for the others.
Player B has one 2nd, one 3rd and one 6th, that's 6pts for the 2nd plus 4pts for the 3rd = 10pts.
So it's a tie but Player A will go through because they had the winner.

Another example:
Player A has a 2nd, 4th and 6th, that's 6+2 = 8
Player B has a 2nd, 4th and 5th, that's the same 6+2 = 8
Player B wins because of the better 5th position finisher.


The draw will take place the weekend of 3/4 Dec, and it will be "Wimbledon" style so the path right through to the final will be defined.
I will randomly assign all players with a number 1 to 64 and post this list on the forum at a pre-arranged time. I will ask a volunteer to post, at the exact same time, a list of numbers 1 to 64, in random order. The first two numbers on the list will be the first match, 2nd two numbers the 2nd match and so on.
Report GEORGE.B November 23, 2011 10:25 PM GMT
undecided, so a 3-1 winner would receive the same points as a 20-1 winner, ie 10?

Would it not be a better idea to give extra points for bigger priced winners, like the rules in richardf's AW comp? These are the rules in Richard's comp:

Winner selected scores 7 points
Second selected scores 3 points
Third selected scores 1 point

If SP is greater than 6/1 points are doubled
If SP is greater than 12/1 points are trebled
If SP is greater than 20/1 points are quadrupled
IF SP IS EVENS OR SHORTER POINTS ARE HALVED (i.e a 4/7 winner scores 3.5, a napped 10/11 second scores 3)

All nap points won are doubled.


As above, you could allow one of the selections to be napped and double the points if the nap wins / is placed. Of course, you could replace Richard's points system with your own.

Just as suggestion to reward bigger priced winners.
Report GEORGE.B November 23, 2011 10:26 PM GMT
*Just a
Report GEORGE.B November 23, 2011 10:35 PM GMT
Also, so there is no bias towards the NH boys, can we please have 2 AW races too? Mischief
Report undecided November 23, 2011 10:59 PM GMT
Thanks George, I'm not familiar with how that comp works, I do take on board using sp, those were my first thoughts, but I'm guided by Mully's experience in running a comp like this and the thinking is that a player can fluke a big price in what is such a short format of only 3 races. This way the onus is on winners & placers rather than longer term value.

As for the 2 NH & 1 AW, well it is NH season, there are two or three NH meetings to one AW so it's natural to bias it to NH?
Perhaps if we do another one next summer then Flat/AW will take precedent.

I didn't really want to go to 4 races, extra workload and all, but maybe if you AW boys & girls feel strongly about it, and someone would be willing to help tot up the scores on the first busiest round then maybe!
Report GEORGE.B November 23, 2011 11:28 PM GMT
Thanks for the explanation, undecided. Thought I might be pushing my luck with the additional AW race!

Point taken about selecting a fluky big priced winner, but if anyone can bang a big-priced one in for 6 consecutive rounds, I want to subscribe to their tipping line! Mischief

I was just wondering about the SP side of it and I'm happy to go with whatever yourself and Mully think is most appropriate.
Report GEORGE.B November 23, 2011 11:32 PM GMT
Oh, and I'm not expecting to last long whatever the rules are! Grin
Report Mully November 24, 2011 12:10 AM GMT
Some fair points there George. I remember back in the olden days I devised a non-S.P type scoring system for a head-to-head K.O comp so it rewarded a more compact one-on-one tussle with your opponent over the three legs.
I deemed that a guy with 3 x 6/1 winners in a match up was a more deserved winner than the guy with just one winner @ 20/1 and two others tailed off. Essentially players are simply trying to nominate the winner/best possible placing in each leg regardless of the S.P. Think of it as three individual arm wrestles Laugh
Report shearer2therestcue November 24, 2011 12:30 AM GMT
oh aye Cool
Report salmon spray November 24, 2011 12:57 AM GMT
I can translate from the Geordie.
I believe shearer wishes to participate.
Hth.
Report DeSSieReborn November 24, 2011 9:52 AM GMT
Mully 24 Nov 11 00:10 
Some fair points there George. I remember back in the olden days I devised a non-S.P type scoring system for a head-to-head K.O comp so it rewarded a more compact one-on-one tussle with your opponent over the three legs.
I deemed that a guy with 3 x 6/1 winners in a match up was a more deserved winner than the guy with just one winner @ 20/1 and two others tailed off. Essentially players are simply trying to nominate the winner/best possible placing in each leg regardless of the S.P. Think of it as three individual arm wrestles Laugh

On the other hand Mully, is the guy who has selected the three shortest priced runners of the day at 1/4, 2/7 and 4/11 better than the one who has found a 20/1 winner and two losers?
Report DeSSieReborn November 24, 2011 10:01 AM GMT
"and the thinking is that a player can fluke a big price in what is such a short format of only 3 races"

UD I'm surprised at you!! So your big priced winners are just flukes? A 20/1 winner, imo, is no more flukey than 3 6/1 winners if the bookies have got their prices right and probably takes even more effort to find. It also takes a lot more courage to go for those 20/1 shots against someone who you KNOW will go for shorties.......

Just my opinion............
Report DeSSieReborn November 24, 2011 10:07 AM GMT
I'll be amazed if this doesn't turn in to a shortie fest. Why would I go for 10/1 shots when I'll get the same reward as an Even money winner, which are so much easier to find (allegedly)?

Not being obstructive, just putting across the views of a non shortie contestant!!!
Report DeSSieReborn November 24, 2011 10:08 AM GMT
Salmon Spray has been installed as the bookies ante post fav to win this already Laugh
Report DeSSieReborn November 24, 2011 10:09 AM GMT
Hopefully you'll give us all a chance by picking the three most open handicaps UD Wink
Report GEORGE.B November 24, 2011 10:53 AM GMT
Dessie, what I think undecided is saying -

we're all a bunch of guessers and if any of us come up with a 20-1 winning poke, we've obviously fluked it! Mischief

I suppose in the 'real world' - if we had £1 to stake on 3 races, the guy with 3 6-1 winners would be +18 and the guy with the one 20-1 winner would also +18. So on those lines of thinking, the guy with the 3 6-1 pokes would not be the more deserved winner.

It's just a bit of fun and I don't mind what the rules are tbh, but the 'flaw', imo, is that there is no incentive (other than for one's own punting, obviously) to try and dig one out at a price. And as about 1 in 3 favs win, the % call is to get in first and put up the 3 favs.

Imo, and I realise this may be too much work, but each contestant should be given a mythical £300 bank (£100 / race) to spread over the 3 races, with EW betting allowed.

I favour this way because it makes it a more 'realistic' punting scenario. You've got your £100 / race and it's up to the contestant to make the most of it.
Report GEORGE.B November 24, 2011 10:59 AM GMT
*One selection per race / permitted.
Report DeSSieReborn November 24, 2011 12:15 PM GMT
Yes at the end of the day its a comp that we, the competitors, have to play as we see fit, under the rules of the comp.
Report man of many moods November 24, 2011 12:24 PM GMT
It's an interesting format. Haven't really had time to read all this and digest it.

The thing which strikes me immediately though is the rule about duplicate selections.

I would always want to wait until about lunchtime on the day of the race before making a selection in case there are changes in the going. So my opponent would always have an excellent chance of posting first.
You have no choice about which 3 races to go for, which is fine, but I could do all the hard work of picking the potential winner only to find that my opponent got there first.
So in a competition to decide the best tipster, I'm suddenly not allowed to tip the horse which I think will win!

That seems a major flaw.

No idea what the answer is though. Happy
Report salmon spray November 24, 2011 12:35 PM GMT
Format seems fine to me        Happy
Report werbie November 24, 2011 2:11 PM GMT
Better count me out ud - i didnt realise it was a mainly jumps comp - not got a clue where twig hoppers are concerned -= have a good christmas &  many thanks for running the team comp . cheers
Report bosstipper November 24, 2011 3:21 PM GMT
me and bally2711 will be in ExcitedGrin
Report undecided November 24, 2011 3:22 PM GMT
Do you ever wish you hadn't started something?

No seriously, I do like feedback, even if I'm not able to please everyone I still take into account opinions.

DeSSie, yes, more than most on here I have no time for odds-on/shorties BUT if I only had one pick and my livelihood depended on it, I'm going to be concentrating on what's the winner, not what's value.
So in a 3 or 4 race restricted choice competition, I think it's fair enough to leave the sp aside, make it more of an A v B thing.
Yes the races will be the big handicaps or listed races emphasis on quality and size of field.

momm - I think that it's better to have all 3 races in running so to speak, rather than allowing duplicates and effectively losing a third or more of the match.
If someone has the strategy to post first, well they maybe have to forego any information that comes to hand after that point whereas those who leave it later run the risk of their first pick being claimed.

salmon - thank you

werbie - fair enough, see you for next year's comp hopefully.
Report DeSSieReborn November 24, 2011 3:33 PM GMT
I think if the races are going to be the best handicaps of the day UD thats should deal with the shortie equation. Can I reiterate I'm happy to participate whichever format you use as with NH racing my white flag will be held up early doors I think unless I "fluke" three 20/1 winners
Report GEORGE.B November 24, 2011 3:37 PM GMT
DeSSie, yes, more than most on here I have no time for odds-on/shorties BUT if I only had one pick and my livelihood depended on it, I'm going to be concentrating on what's the winner, not what's value.

But our livelihoods don't depend on it Mischief. Salmon Spray might have tipped about 100 more winners than Josh Monk this year but he ain't gonna be topping that 12 monthly rolling table!

Shirley any tipping contest has to take into account SP, IMO!
Report salmon spray November 24, 2011 3:41 PM GMT
One of these days GEORGE          Happy
Report DeSSieReborn November 24, 2011 3:44 PM GMT
Salmon the truth hurts Laugh
Report undecided November 24, 2011 3:48 PM GMT
Yes George ok but it's one thing a 12 month rolling comp with endless number of races to average things out, and another thing a short format 3 race sudden death.

and don't call me Shirley Laugh

I'll reiterate that I haven't run this type of comp before, and am largely bowing to Mully's experience for this format, and I suspect simplicity of calculating results does enter the argument for it too!

I wouldn't be in the slightest offended if you or anyone else wanted to take over this comp and run it how they see fit, I do too much here anyway (I do love it though Happy)
Report GEORGE.B November 24, 2011 3:49 PM GMT
I believe you may well, ss - if you can persuade ud to change the rules to the most winners tipped!
Report DeSSieReborn November 24, 2011 3:51 PM GMT
UD do it as YOU see fit......(but you did ask for opinions etc Laugh )
Report salmon spray November 24, 2011 3:55 PM GMT
I do tip long ones from time to time. One of these days one of them will win.
Report GEORGE.B November 24, 2011 3:57 PM GMT
I'm happy to leave it in your expert hands, undecided...only the next time you say -  if anyone has suggestions I'm happy to consider

I'll know that means - you can suggest all you like but I ain't changing a fecking thing, and if you're not happy, run the fecking comp yaself LaughMischief

Only joking, ud. I'm looking forward to tipping 3 favs and going out in the first round Grin
Report undecided November 24, 2011 4:06 PM GMT
George, I know, I appreciate what you are saying, thank you.
Report MALTWHIX November 24, 2011 4:39 PM GMT
Yes please
Report hoof hearted November 24, 2011 6:51 PM GMT
Yes please
Report stewpot November 25, 2011 12:07 AM GMT
Some very valid points made
- a competition based on Winners/placings OR SP bonus based
- level stakes OR 100 points to spend
three very open races should help negate most points & simplify its operation
quite happy with whatever the outcome, 'The Settlers Decision' has my vote, he has ALL the effort
its just a question of adjusting your play to the Rules Mischief
Undecided has always been willing to promote/encourage fine tuning for continued entertainmentHappy
Report custardcream64 November 25, 2011 8:32 AM GMT
UD- Count me in if there is a space going , cc .
Report Ra Nova November 25, 2011 11:52 AM GMT
Count me in, UD

thanks
Report undecided November 25, 2011 12:20 PM GMT
stewpot, thanks for the comments.

cc, as a fellow organizer I was going to ask you anyway, space permitting, I'm sure there will be.
Report Tingle Creek November 25, 2011 12:50 PM GMT
UD. Count me in .
Cheers.
Report Mully November 25, 2011 5:01 PM GMT
There's no need to worry about shorties as the races selected will be the most open "pinsticking" handicaps of the day in the main I dare say Cool.
Report undecided November 26, 2011 10:37 AM GMT
The count is up to 45 including guests.
Report twm. November 26, 2011 11:02 AM GMT
i will play thank you
Report Deep Impact November 26, 2011 11:53 AM GMT
In Cool
Report unluckyStu November 26, 2011 1:34 PM GMT
Count me in Ud, I can get knocked out in the first round of this, don't follow NH, but I suppose I could fluke a 20/1 shot although it wouldn't do me no good against SS would it Laugh

Werbie you could join my AW Division 1 through out the winter if you can post a selection everyday, betfair sp's win only, something to help keep your eye in Wink
Report DeSSieReborn November 26, 2011 2:42 PM GMT
stewpot 26 Nov 11 11:29 
I hope our rivals the Newbies have picked the winner of the big one, be pleasing to see Wayward Prince win Happy

KO comp, Yes the draw might not really matter Excited

I thought it would add to the suspense & interest if the draw was 'televised'
so posting a suggestion

We each get nominated a number 1-64
say Alphabetic sequence
that number corresponds to the balls in the FA Cup draw 'live' on the 4th December
Im sure the sponsors wont mind us pinching their 10 minute spot
just got to get them to mention our players names after they quote football teams


Can you fix it Jimmy? (UD lol)
Report undecided November 26, 2011 2:59 PM GMT
That's a great idea Happy
Report custardcream64 November 26, 2011 3:03 PM GMT
Dessie - Very good suggestion .
Report DeSSieReborn November 26, 2011 3:49 PM GMT
I'd love to take the credit but it was Stewpots idea Wink
Report undecided November 26, 2011 5:37 PM GMT
**********Breaking news**********

The draw for Round 1 will be televised on ITV1, on Sunday 4th December, at about 2.30pm after some football match finishes!

Each player will be assigned a number and two footballing type people will draw the balls out the hat!

Thanks to stewpot for organizing this with the FA Wink
Report salmon spray November 26, 2011 6:37 PM GMT
If I am Leeds Utd I am withdrawing.
Report bettysboy November 26, 2011 7:02 PM GMT
I do hope they're not my balls in the hat. Short straws are one thing - i can provide one of them. Who are these FA? and why do they like pulling balls from a bag?
Report razmos November 26, 2011 7:11 PM GMT
FA Shocked - Ferkin Ar$eholes Confused Laugh
Report The Laying Don November 26, 2011 8:04 PM GMT
The Muff is up for it
Report book November 26, 2011 8:58 PM GMT
yes please ud
Report Mully November 26, 2011 10:09 PM GMT
I like the draw idea #ballbags Laugh
Report undecided November 26, 2011 10:46 PM GMT
Confirmed Still to decide Special invite Standby
undecided a bit dizzee Mully bluenose7
DeSSieReborn barny Weaver Fish zipper
Ming_the_Merciless feed the goat......(doubtful) custardcream64
shanelee1966 foxy
Andrew in Sweden fundamentalist
Ricky Santini harleelin
mr d ferret jbarnes (no not him)
Fidway jimnast
pedro39 johnn
hong kong fooey krl
Moose man of many moods
Oshun Fynanse Mark Sloan (doubtful)
salmon spray miscreant man
stewpot Muqbil
ryanwe platinni
PRODELLBOY Quito
Lampus therobster27
razmos
the dealer
bettysboy
billy onions
dukeofpuke
DFCIRONMAN
FCH
dunter1
One Shot 2 Shot
lester pickit
GEORGE.B
KBGJ
The Grey One
mini me
cgull
shearer2therestcue
bally2711
bosstipper
MALTWHIX
hoof hearted
de44ek4
Ra Nova
Tingle Creek
twm.
Deep Impact
THE MUFF FUFFLER
unluckyStu
book
Report harleelin November 27, 2011 3:59 PM GMT
count me in UD.
Thx
Report man of many moods November 28, 2011 11:04 AM GMT
Yep. Sign me up please undecided.
Report salmon spray November 28, 2011 12:05 PM GMT
barny has indicated he is in on The Humbugs thread ud.
Report undecided November 28, 2011 3:14 PM GMT
thanks salmon, that's 54 with guests, nearly there.
Report krl November 28, 2011 6:47 PM GMT
Deal me in please Ud
Report Mully November 29, 2011 11:31 AM GMT
ttt
Report PRODELLBOY November 29, 2011 8:37 PM GMT
ttt
Report a bit dizzee November 29, 2011 9:04 PM GMT
Go on then.
Report old applejack November 29, 2011 11:47 PM GMT
hi undecided

if there is any spaces left, please consider me

thanks
Report undecided November 30, 2011 2:28 PM GMT
Hi old applejack, I'll put you third on the standby list. I'm still giving team tipsters priority until this Friday, there are still 8 or 9 to respond so a fair chance there will be a place for you.
Report fundamentalist December 1, 2011 12:32 AM GMT
sorry not been about as much lately, count me in please UD
Report undecided December 1, 2011 5:26 PM GMT
Confirmed Still to decide Special invite Standby
1 undecided feed the goat......(doubtful) Mully bluenose7
2 DeSSieReborn foxy Weaver Fish zipper
3 Ming_the_Merciless jbarnes (no not him) custardcream64 old applejack
4 shanelee1966 jimnast
5 Andrew in Sweden Mark Sloan (doubtful)
6 Ricky Santini miscreant man
7 mr d ferret Muqbil
8 Fidway platinni
9 pedro39 Quito
10 hong kong fooey therobster27
11 Moose
12 Oshun Fynanse
13 salmon spray
14 stewpot
15 ryanwe
16 PRODELLBOY
17 Lampus
18 razmos
19 the dealer
20 bettysboy
21 billy onions
22 dukeofpuke
23 DFCIRONMAN
24 FCH
25 dunter1
26 One Shot 2 Shot
27 lester pickit
28 GEORGE.B
29 KBGJ
30 The Grey One
31 mini me
32 cgull
33 shearer2therestcue
34 bally2711
35 bosstipper
36 MALTWHIX
37 hoof hearted
38 de44ek4
39 Ra Nova
40 Tingle Creek
41 twm.
42 Deep Impact
43 THE MUFF FUFFLER
44 unluckyStu
45 book
46 barny
47 harleelin
48 johnn
49 man of many moods
50 krl
51 a bit dizzee
52 fundamentalist
Report DeSSieReborn December 1, 2011 7:58 PM GMT
Quick question.....how the hell am I going to concentrate on the FA Cup draw when I have to watch which tipster has drawn which Laugh
Report platinni December 1, 2011 10:29 PM GMT
im in ud

Cool
Report undecided December 2, 2011 5:23 PM GMT
Final call for team tipsterers, after tonight I will invite a few more guests to make up the numbers.
Report la mallatiere December 3, 2011 9:50 AM GMT
I'm in if any places left.

Noticed your call on other thread undecided
Report undecided December 3, 2011 9:51 AM GMT
yes great, welcome la mallatiere!
Report la mallatiere December 3, 2011 9:53 AM GMT
Ta Grin
Report Grok December 3, 2011 9:59 AM GMT
At last, recognition Excited... YES Tongue Out
Report undecided December 3, 2011 10:00 AM GMT
lol, nice one Grok, welcome.
Report josh monk December 3, 2011 10:26 AM GMT
just replied to your other thread, in if still required.
Report zipper December 3, 2011 10:29 AM GMT
Good Morning Undecided, zip here am i in or out last time i took a look i was on stand by ..
Report undecided December 3, 2011 10:33 AM GMT
welcome josh monk!

Hi zipper, yes you are in along with bluenose7 & old applejack from the standby list.
Report look - it's snowing December 3, 2011 10:35 AM GMT
Can I play please?
Report undecided December 3, 2011 10:44 AM GMT
look - it's snowing, I've only one place left and I've invited IntheGroove, but if he/she doesn't want to or doesn't respond by the end of today then you are the last in.
Report unluckyStu December 3, 2011 12:59 PM GMT
When is the effA cup draw ?
Report salmon spray December 3, 2011 1:02 PM GMT
Tomorrow at 2.30 ish.
Report unluckyStu December 3, 2011 1:53 PM GMT
I thank you Happy
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