santa anita and the change to dirt

Well, I guess a suggestion would be that US tracks switch all their surfaces to turf, then the horses would travel in a canter for 1 1/8 miles and sprint home the last 1/8.......kind of like the racing you are used to in the UK.

Track surfaces don't break down horses, an endless list of "cocktails" intended to numb pain and enhance speed combined with 21 and change first quarters break horses down.

You are looking at this the wrong way. Trainers like Dutrow, Pletcher, Lake, Mullins, etc, with an endless list of banned substance violations and joke suspensions that can stay in the appeal process for years, and racing authorities turning a blind eye to "same day" vetting of horses with "cloudy" test substances is what really needs to get fixed. Not track surfaces.

But it won't. Why? There's huge money at stake and the Regulators are captive.......kind of like our representatives in government have been captured by the the banks.

And the reason betting handles were down last year has nothing to do with dirt (2 months now). They will pick up again soon .

And the reason handles were down last year is because.....wait for it....the recession.

I remember some clown posting on here that horse racing is recession proof.

Ain't that right rat?

Which means little if demographics are eroding your fan base yearly.

b0ll0cks

demographics my a$$

Like Clinton once said "it's the economy stupid"

And yes, I'm glad you clued in who the clown who was posting horse racing is recession proof was.

Or a combo of the two[;)]

hey rink rat, do you think Old Howie finally got the gist of your angle on losses, yet?

justaceo, tell me you are out there, you don't want to be missing this display this evening.

I say jump, he says how high

Really, metinks he has got to handicap more and fight less to ever figure it out. I suggest a naturopathic remedy, worked wonders for me.[;)]

Howie ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, that's for sure.  Back when gold was $640 oz. I mentioned on here that gold and silver were the place to park your winnings.  HOWARD came on here fuming and ranting, saying gold and silver were in a bubble and quoted Warren Buffett.  He said gold was in a bubble (it had more than doubled over the previous 5 years).  Silver was around $10.50.  Needless to say, Old Howie got it wrong (gold is $1425 and silver is $35)......who knows, maybe the bubble will burst tomorrow

justaceo, it's like I have him on a leash



(....well, in a way I DO HAVE HIM on a leash )

Yes, I do recall that from him now as you speak. Guess I'm not the only one who's not recession proof.

Not a bad idea that canadian...making all tracks turf.

That way you would make horse welfare the no 1 priority.

If the tracks weren't so unforgiving..... then they could justifiably ban all substances..... like all other thriving racing nations (see Hong Kong and Japan for details).

Handle is unlikely to recover rinkrat.... pool takeout has increased in So Cal. But I don't suppose you noticed that.

The handle is not recovering any time soon because their economy is not recovering any time soon.

Don't pay attention to their government's spin. With U6 at roughly 17%, their participation in labour force at the lowest number recorded in 26 years, their housing market in a double-dip according to the Shiller index and foreclosures continuing at an accelerated pace even with MERS mess slowing down the process, personal bankruptcies at record levels, close to 45 million people on food stamps, inflation beginning to show up into core and non-core items........don't expect any real recovery in the US economy anytime soon.

Like I said earlier....."it's the economy stupid"......nothing to do with demographics.....NOTHING.

I  agree with you re economy. But you didn't bother to read what I wrote.

However when the economy does recover, USA racing isn't going to at the same rate because of the massive problem it has with welfare.people aren't going to come back to the tracks because of it.

Racing won't recover because it is now seen as drug infested....and you can't get rid of dirt until you get rid of the drugs...stupid.

Racing is *NOW* seen as drug infested ????

Are drugs in racing a last two year problem? Did the public wake up in the last two years? Why? What's different today than say four or five years ago?

The only correlation with declining handles is a declining economy (chart it, if you don't believe me) NOTHING else.

You can put big neon signs at the entrance of every race track flashing "DRUGS IN USE HERE" and if the economy is booming, if people have jobs, if their homes are gaining in value every day because of a real estate bubble, they'll go in and spend their money.

All these other "explanations" are grasping at straws.

We will see.

Big Brown ,eight belles were a disaster for a sport that is only really watched by Joe public during the triple crown......and every sport needs new fans.
BUt .. us racings decline can be charted much further back than the recession.WElfare is one reason.But explain Nascar to me
How are their stadiums filled to watch cars going round an oval for hours on end? Yet stunning Santa Anita is empty.

Have you ever been to Dixie?

If you had then you wouldn't be asking me to explain the NASCAR phenomenon.

At any rate, I enjoyed our exchange and good luck to you punting.

Oaklawn is still packed, wall to wall with people. Tampa Bay is quite well attended as well, especially on weekends.  The problem seems to be per capita betting, not interest or enthusiasm at these tracks.

As for some western tracks like  Turf Paradise, they are living graveyards.

Of those 11 please tell how many were stress related and not pulmonary, oh you don't know? Didn't think so.

Keep blaming the surfaces and not the trainera and their drugs.

Afterall what bettor wants predictable racing?

Know nothing one world order tards promoting unpredictable pack racing on synthetic surfaces,
do you sell picks like that toutscum GM10?

Likewise the hike in takeout in the tote and organized protest  has nothing to do with handle being down.

Handle didn't drop nationwide 20% last year in the states either, try 9%.
just make any old crap up that sounds good. Stateside horse racing has fared much better in the economic recesssion than all other forms of gambling in the states but pretend otherwise because it fits the one world order agenda.

Ironically stateside horse handle started dropping in 2006 or two years before the recession started. Guess what did largely start in 2006? Right, proliferation of garbage pack racing on synthetic track surfaces.

Likewise it is great the NWO folks convinced the shiek to install Tapeta in Meydan,
completely mitigating his advantage with speed bred US horse flesh.
How many horses have gone wire to wire at Meydan this year? Exactly one.

New guy....Calm down!!! try valium.

Then Try reading the thread again.

You can't race on dirt AND do away with the drugs. If you did there wouldn't be enough sound horses in California(for example)to race twice a week... never mind 4/5 days.

What does it matter how the injuries came about? They were fatal this year ON DIRT.Last year, on AW they weren't.Don't tell me the trainers weren't using the same drugs in 2010!?

As State Vet Dr. Rick Arthur said...'last year we had statistics that were virtually european'.

The hike in takeout came about BECAUSE handle is down. Maybe you can explain how that will entice fans, new or otherwise?Without raising your blood pressure.
As I recall, the same % of favourites won on AW as dirt at Santa Anita(approx 30%)... so because you don't like it,I assume you couldn't adapt?

Californian..ditto!

notenough....where did you get those stats (from your initial post) from?  Not saying it's not true, just haven't been able to find it on the internet.

NewGuy must have been high on something when he put up those multiple posts, as most of his comments have nothing to do with what the discussion was about. New World Order FFS !!! Too much weed and tin-foil for me to even comment on that one.

notenough, I would venture a guess that the average US racing fan (bettor), in fact even some bettors of above average involvement, could not tell me what the different take-outs are for the various pools at different racetrack with any degree of accuracy. So to suggest that take-outs are the problem with declining handles (the past, now and in the future) is misguided.

Handles are down because the economy is down. It's that simple. If you chart the correlation, it was also like that in past recessions and that was at a time when take-outs were lower than today. Since this last recession  has been and continues to be more severe than others in the past, the handle has dropped more sharply. Nothing new here.

Winston... I got them from racingpost.com (and rick arthur's quote)....not a huge surprise if bloodhorse and drf didn't publish them.

Canadian.... I'm not suggesting that at all.. 'hike in takeout came about because handle is down'.
The gist I got was that S.A. raised their takeout to boost prizemoney(I could be wrong)...Handle is down ,their horse pop. is too...and they had to do something about it.

Winston if you go to the international section..the article published 3rd march.

And I was wrong it wasn't 3 fatal injuries in 09/10...it was 2!

cheers.

found it. seems a bit biased.  the article includes stats for breakdowns during training hours on dirt, yet not for synthetic. Therefore, I disregard the whole article as propaganda.

I think that's because there were no fatal breakdowns during training!

maybe you're right....I don't know.  either way, the author needs to present the stats more responsibly.   


Square Face became the 11th horse lost because of injuries or accidents in training or racing on the sand-and-clay main track since the meeting began on December 26, according to California Horse Racing Board statistics.

At the 2009-2010 winter-spring meeting, when Santa Anita conducted racing on a synthetic track, there were two horses lost during racing.

as the article progresses, it mentions 1 died in a collision and another died from internal injuries.  Also, what were the results from the other 2 years synthetic was used?

You should have stopped typing at "I don't know"

Just about the only honest thing you ever posted on here

on a more positive note...we'll see a legitimate West coast challenge for the Kentucky Derby now.

Tampa did 11 million today, an all time record. (as mentioned on here, a strong track)

Skimming the surface again, devoid of critical thinking.

They offered a better product (higher purses - more graded races) than in the past and more importantly they offered more exotic wagers.

You also failed to mention that on-track attendance was just over 10,000, about 22pc below average for Tampa Bay Derby day.

And today, they'll be back to normal.

Reading past the headlines may help you in the future.

Just ignore the big picture, they offered a better product and have been boosting purses while most tracks CUT CUT CUT. An all time handle is nothing to sneeze at in these days and times.

Menelaus
13 Mar 11 09:34 Joined: 03 Feb 05 | Topic/replies: 417 | Blogger: Menelaus's blog
Skimming the surface again, devoid of critical thinking.


funny, thecomedian took up arms against rink rat a few days ago, and suddenly melanie shows up doing the same......WAT A SAD TOOL.

The only SAD thing on here is continuing to embarrass yourself on here with your obsession with me.

It's time I declare victory over you billy and move on.

There's no glory in continuing to beat up a dimwitted CLOWN, an AMATEUR loser masquerading as a pro, a delusional fool who posts fake emails and P/L statements and who has disgraced himself so often and so much on these forums he should be ashamed to show his face on here.

Enjoy life in Wonderland, billy.

thecanadian
13 Mar 11 19:01 Joined: 26 Jan 05 | Topic/replies: 3,526 | Blogger: thecanadian's blog
The only SAD thing on here is continuing to embarrass yourself on here with your obsession with me.


yes, you starting multiple threads about me this week proves your point.  Come back as melanie and have him agree with you....that'll conclusively seal the deal.

relax....you'll live longer....then again, with that chip on your shoulder, it seems you find life unbearable

billy, I left you my email address as a personal message

IT'S A UK EMAIL ADDRESS

Unless someone has found some way to hand out UK IP emails in Canada, it's about time YOU STOP POSTING RUBBISH AND PSYCHOTIC RANTS on here.

Then again, you can post another fake email, fake story, fake profit-only statement, fake everything, to cover your trolling.

A man should know when he's been had, billy. Time to give TFU.

Can you lot go and argue on another thread...please


With a month of the meet left the fatality toll at S.A. for racing AND training stands at 13.

In the whole 09/10(on Synthetic) meet there were 6 (2 racing and 4 in training).

GO FIGURE.

The fatality rate for the 1998 meet was only 3.

What is that mean? How does this support your conclusion?

Is the data you are using indicative of a trend or an aberration?

Is the data you are basing your conclusion on statistically significant?

Are there others factors influencing the data you are using other than surface?




Oh yeah, I know, fatalities are up with the move back to dirt so the change MUST BE the reason. Got it.

Good stat re 1998!!!

Shame it's about as relevant as baseball is to the rest of the sporting world

I know what you're trying to say.

All I'm saying is that there are other things to consider.

372 substances on the prohibited list 12 years ago, 1156 on this years list. Where did exponential growth in prohibited substances come from, and why? Not to mention the endless list of "cocktails" that go undetected.

You truly want horse safety start with that.

Only if weather is a problem should synthetics ever be considered as a surface. (ie.Toronto)Otherwise stick to dirt in SoCal, Einstien.

or the alternative is to race when the seasons allow it, not "off-season" in dire weather conditions and subfreezing temps. But then again, I forgot, squeezing every available dollar of revue out of punters takes precedent over horse safety and well being

the surface is not the major issue

they are over raced and heavily medicated, that's why they break down

everyone who's important in the Industry knows this, they are just being hypocritical by not addressing the real issues

if they didn't race on dirt... then they wouldn't need the drugs(see HK,UK,Ire,france,Aus,NZ,Ger,Italy for details).

They need the drugs to keep the horses sound...otherwise there would be even fewer runners,and fewer races and fewer days racing.

And YES it really is that simple.

Oh yes, the good old "the don't use drugs in UK,UK, etc" argument.

One word for you: NAIVE

if someone switched their point of view in a discussion with The Canadian he would seamlessly switch sides and continue the argument siding with the alternate point of view.

It's difficult to diagnose what the cause of this attitude is... perhaps it's a Napoleon complex ... I'm sure The canadian has his own view on this all the same

K.C. and the sunshine band, first of all, welcome aboard.

I have no idea where you came from but I don't recall seeing any of your posts on here ever before. I must admit though I'm rather puzzled for someone who's been on here only for a couple of weeks, your opinions of me seem pretty strong. But then again, as sure as you are about me in the short time that you've been here, I'm even more sure that you are nothing more than one of the usual mugs on here just posting under a different alias.

I'll brake it down in small pieces for your so your birdbrain can understand.

1. Racing on dirt is not the major factor in horses breaking down, the way they are over medicated and they way they are raced IS.

2.It is naive to think that prohibited substances are not used in other than US racing venues.

1. is not in conflict with 2.


Read all my posts above, get someone that can count to 2 without missing a number in between to explain them to you and you'll see that my position on the issue has never changed.

canadian...

You clearly have no idea of the testing procedures in HK for example...so I suggest you actually do some research before airing your conspiracy theories(fantasies would be a more accurate description).

describe them to me

And while you describe them, since you are sooooo knowledgeable, point out the difference between their procedures and those used in the US.


You crossed well into childish naive, super stupid territory if you actually believe that saying prohibitive substances are also used in other racing jurisdictions other than the US....is a conspiracy theory.

Ok lets revert to what we all actually know.

The US and Canada are the ONLY major racing nations where you can race on Bute(and lasix). Bute can be given 24hrs before a race intravenously..
The painkiller Bute cannot be administered to a horse in any other major racing nation less than 8 days before a race.

Oh, and I forgot cortisone, which can also be given at 24 hrs..legally.
Every winner in Uk is tested for all 3. If positive..disqualification.

Bute is not allowed in Canada and many U.S. states, as for KC well diagnosed

I have trouble taking seriously any post that starts with "Ok let's revert to" ..........

I know where bute/lasix are allowed, you don't have to regurgitate it.

How is posting this in any way relevant to HK's testing procedures that I asked you to describe or supporting the belief that prohibitive substances are not used in the HK/UK ?

Try again, diversion number one failed.

notenough,

your best bet is to block thetool. 

beware: if he challenges you to a bet, he'll likely run at top speed with his tail between his legs if you accept the offer.

I knew you couldn't stay away from......the biscuits.

good dog

thecanadian
Date Joined:     26 Jan 05
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it's brilliant....he fumes and trolls and hyperventilates and constantly refreshes looking for attention while we laugh

billy reminds me of a dog eating his own vomit

santa winner

The point is that if you are allowed to race on bute you really dont need anything else to mask a soundness issue.

If you mask the issue and then race you WILL get fatal breakdowns.
If you didnt allow bute and raced on dirt you won't be able to race 4/5 days per week..the horse pop. wont stand it.

NOWHERE else in the world would stand for racing on bute.

The prohibited substances are a red herring with regard to this issue.But, in HK all runners are tested PRE race.

I meant US prohibited substances.

Isn't Canada's premier track Woodbine, polytrack? No wonder bute is prohibited..it isn't needed.

You know what notenough, if someone banged on my door tomorrow morning and INSISTED that the sun rises from the west, what would I do? Slam the door in his face, or try to get him to change his mind?

******* slams door shut *********


You want to continue to spew nonsense that the US should abolish dirt racing because it kills horses, or that there are no prohibitive substances that are used in the UK/HK that fly under the screening tests undetected......BE MY GUEST..........door slam shut.

or is it bute that kills horses, and not the dirt surface after all?



(it's getting pretty hard to follow your cyclical arguments)

Canadian..I'm starting to see why not many take you seriously...up until now I was quite enjoying this exchange.no longer.

Good luck with your superior attitude.

notenough, you should step down from that white horse

At first, you INSISTED that it was all the dirt surface's fault

Your last couple of posts however seem to have shifted the blame from the dirt surface to the use of bute which masks soundless issues.

Which precisely reinforces the point I was trying to make that the major factor is NOT the surface but over medication......AND YOU HAVEN'T EVEN BEGUN TO SCRATCH THE SURFACE OF THE PROHIBIYED MEDICATION ISSUES if you think 2 micrograms per milliliter of plasma 24-72 hours out (depending on the jurisdiction) is a major problem.

Perhaps I talked some sense into you and didn't even realize it

On 8 march I wrote..'you cant do away with the drugs and race on dirt'.

You need to read more and shout less.

notenough, I'm trying to stay polite but you're making it very difficult.

You can't stay away from drugs AND WIN. In the US, the UK, HK, or anywhere in the world where a horse comes out of the gate and is aimed towards the finish line with a little person on top.

Get a freaking clue FFS.

you need to get out more(of the US).

That is total bullsh1t

I'm not in the US, get a clue.

You are being just plain naive.