Tennis Talk 2025: Vol 21 (Wimbledon)

wow Belinda!

I think the camera-men should give us more shots of smiling, happy posh people.

Bencic through Next up for her, the mighty Iga

Rus still on for the wooden spoon! Even favorite to win it.

I'm sure Mirra will come through in the end, but this is now two QF's in a row she has lost as a fave.

This talk of multiple slams for Andreeva ,I can't see it .Got some decent shots ,serve ,backhand ,volley ,but forehand needs to go back to the drawing board ,terrible .

okay, no sign of Sinner's arm falling of as yet. Long way to go, though.

She needs a better coach, Conchita looks more like a friend

Despite all the seeds flopping, it looks like we'll have an exiting final four on both sides with:
Saba vs Amanda
Belinda vs Iga

Jannik vs Djoko
Carlos vs Fritz (okay this one does't look all the exciting, but Fritz still the best option from that section)

Shelton making so little impression on the Sinner serve throughout the set. Come the breaker big pressure on his own serve and the DF at 2-2 somewhat inevitable.

Sinner too good for Shelton, it seems.

shelton lacks variety. that was where dimitrov was causing sinner problems.

for a big guy Sinner does get down well

Plus Sinner was obviously impeded by his elbow which is now seemingly a non issue so he'll go on to win the tournament, hopefully with Iga too (or Anisimova).

Grabs his elbow next point

phorum jinx is strong

maybe we can have 1.6 is 15 mins

Keeps shaking it

slugfest against Shelton today, then Novak and Carlos back-to-back. I don't see it.

me neither

on his least favorite surface.

Seems very unlikely if it's getting worse during play.

Put in a 5 figure lay but looks like Ben might not play ball for me here

BP saved at least

hope Shelton can beat this Austrian mug

Jul 9, 2025 -- 5:05PM, Angela Rebecchi wrote:

Put in a 5 figure lay but looks like Ben might not play ball for me here

as yo usay this Ben gets the trainer on. Some strong jinx powers today.

Yeah, not ideal !

oh well, as said yesterday re the injury it must have affected him, but not enough to have withdrawn, couple days rest and some pain killers and I don't see their being a problem, people panicking in the market

Outrageous winner from Coboli !

novak heading out. will be massaging something or breathing deeply soon

novak doesnt half mug hard these days. gets the break right at the end of the set to serve for it and promptly broken to love. now heading a set down. must be an age thing

Only saw yesterday for the first time, a photo of a young Sinner before he was famous with Djokovic, don't know how I hadn't seen that before

Wonder if Novak will call a trainer at some stage for this breathing issue

novak walked right into that one at 6-6

HOLY MOLY IT'S COBOLI!

Novak doesn't need extra sets here.

novak really should pack up if he loses this because theres no way hes winning any slams after this and thats supposed to be all hes interested in

He's too slow out of the corners these days, that slide and turn used to be his strength

Shelton's played fairly well today but he still looks to be beaten in 3 sets

dem the levels

Wooden spoon comp update after QF:
Caramba
Men's:
Shevchenko (needs Sinner to lose his SF to stay alive)

Women's:
Rus (needs Bencic to lose her SF to stay alive)

edy
Men:
Shevchenko (needs Sinner to lose his SF to stay alive)

Women:
Rus (needs Bencic to lose her SF to stay alive)

Players left competing for the wooden spoon:
Shevchenko, McCabe, Dzumhur, Rodesch, Griekspoor

Birrell, Uchijima, Rus, Azarenka

Thought Shelton was weak, far too many free points given to Sinner.

Looks easy for me.

And us indeed.

yeah, shame you picked Vika in the wrong comp

Shelton gave 38 UEs in the match.

Was never going to trouble someone at Sinners level with that.

...and first serve 59%

Shelton was poor, imo. I noticed he was sweating profusely almost from the start. I wonder if he had a cold or a touch of flu.

that break back could be ponr for djokovic. seems to knocked the wind out of him and if he loses this set i dont see him winning in five

he used to shut the door on matches like this very efficiently and if he had been like that today he would be coasting to a straight sets win. served for the first set, won the second set easy and was a break up in the third

set one repeat. will novak serve this one out

or get broken to love

everyone knows that 'unforced error' is literally the most misleading and therefore, most useless statistic that there is in sport

it implies you've made an error due to no or limited pressure or force from your opponent but it's a highly subjective area where tournaments use their own criteria to decide, some take court positioning, timing, if they're in motion into consideration etc, some don't, if any of those factors are at play, then it's forced, but some don't count that, then there's things like making an unforced error due to some mug in the crowd making a noise or moving during a point, but that aside

in Sheltons, case he goes for winners a lot, grass is designed for aggressive tennis, and against Sinner he was trying to up the ante and go for more winners because he knows he's not going to win most of the rallies as Sinner's too good and too consistent with his shot decision making, it was a tactical thing, it's not because he was sloppy, or technically poor. The alternative was to play at his usual intensity and hope for the best, he opted for low percentage and it didn't pay off.

Federer had something like 60 unforced errors in one French Open final against Nadal, that's because Nadal relentlessly hit a lorry load of topspin forehand shots and at angles to Federer's backhand at an increased height than he was used to dealing with - and those missed returns errors are counted as 'unforced', yeah right.

Shelton's movement and strokes were generally good, he just lost to a better played who forced him into making mistakes because of the level that Sinner is. No machine takes things like that into account.

based on that mes it would seem impossible to label any shot as a ue then, on the basis that what looks like a shank is actually the result of spin imparted b your opponent for example. i dont see the point of going that far into it and am happy to go along with ue stats as they are, knowing they arent perfect but certainly in the case of and again for example saba in the fo final, 70 ues even if they werent all ues is still a ludicrous amount of ues

taking the shelton match now, if 38 times he had a shot where you can clearly see he's able to hit a normal shot and he's dumped it in the net or hit it long or wide, i dont care how much topspin sidespin or backspin hes up against. its an unforced error. hes a professional player and as such should be able to deal with anything that comes to him that he can hit. watching shots fly past you because youre out of position or missing when youre on the stretch is a different matter

the point is that when unforced error counts are high, it is not necessarily because they have played badly, that is the point, Shelton did not play badly, he just couldn't execute his tactics as well as he wanted, his general level of play was good, he nearly hit as many winners as Sinner and was only broken twice. Making double faults is a genuine unforced error stat, he made 6 Sinner 1, when the speed on second is significantly reduced from 1st and you're under no pressure from the opponent, that was where he was not good but he was not bad today overall.

surely the definition of playing badly or well is whether your shots go where you want them to. you could even argue dfs arent strictly ues because of perceived pressure from your opponent to make a good second serve

goes back to the whole subjective thing, as how unforced errors are calculated vary from tournament to tournament, what one person sees as a UE another person might not, that's why Federer vehemently argued against the dumb high number of UE attributed to him after that 2007 French Open final, those errors were clearly forced errors

if federer was able to comfortably get his racket on all those nadal forehands then missing has to be called a ue. otherwise i have no idea what is supposed to qualify as a ue. if you can get to a shot in time, if your stance is correct and if youre able to hit the ball cleanly and you miss that has to be a ue. the fact federer couldnt deal with nadals topsin doesnt mean he was hitting forced errors for me theyre ues

otherwise you can extend what federer said to its ultimate and say that a forced error is anytime your opponent makes you play a shot and that is obviously nonsense

Fabrice Santoro would have made that.

#bangrass #banitalianvoodoo

Old men can't do the splits.

true, they should leave that to the likes of Olga Korbut and Nadia Comaneci

Federer doesn't think they were, I don't think they were, others don't, that's what I'm saying, it's subjective.

Another couple of examples of UE dumbness

You give up points when you're 40 love down, especially big servebots like Isner and Karlovic were, they gave up plenty of points like that by just hammering it anywhere with no real precision, almost every return game, just to get to their serve, they were all unforced errors though when they clearly werent bothered.

Underarm serves, as rare as they are, because they're unexpected, players then caught unawares, rush to the net to get to it but don't make it over the net, some will say that's a forced errors, others will say it's unforced. And on  it goes.

Does Djokovic actually think he can beat his younger clone ?

federer just might be biased mes dont you reckon. anyway i hear what your saying but at the same time what exactly is a ue then. seems to me from what youre saying ues dont exist and theyre all forced or players deliberately losing points

djoko beating cobolli just now was like pulling teeth. unless sinner has a problem with his elbow which looked ok today i cant see novak winning

If you have a ball coming at you with topspin on a clay court with up to 5,000 RPM as Nadal could generate onto his opponents backhand, the ball sit up at shoulder height, not even the perceived greatest player of all time could consistently return those shots because they are too difficult to deal with, the technique and speed Nadal deployed on those shots clearly means that the returns were forced errors not unforced errors. Unforced errors exist, I'm not saying Shelton's unforced error column were false, I'm saying that it does not take into account the intangibles, such as tactics, he was not trying to keep his unforce error count low, he was trying to go for winners with a low error of margin, meaning not hitting loopy balls or keeping the balls from the lines, he was playing aggressive tennis and generally played well - the point I'm making is people who don't understand tennis just grabs the stats, point to it and say look, he played badly.

It's like in football, teams can deploy the counter attacking tactic, deliberately giving up possession, not wanting to make incessant passes and therefore be down on the % possession count and number of passes made, if they lose 1-0 some people who didn't watch the match will say they played badly, even if they created the better chances throughout.

As Mark Twain once said "there are lies, damned lies, and then there are statistics"

Kind Regards.

i may not see things entirely your way mes but i certainly understand tennis. if you cant define what a ue is i dont see how you can a fe

also shelton missed far too much and youre saying because he went for his shots that means he played well even though he missed. cant agree with that at all

I've already said above an unforced error implies limited pressure or force from your opponent, then went onto explain that different tournaments use different criteria to determine what an unforced error is, then went on to explain that they are other factors not taking into account by people not even watching a match, such as inflated unforced error counts by deliberately giving up points for tactical reasons or being distracted by crowd movements etc. That's why that stat should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Federer hit 64 unforced errors apparently in the 2007 French Open final, no he didn't, he was forced into making many of those mistakes due to the uniqueness of Nadal's ability of forcing his opponents to take balls way above the average height a backhand would normally make contact with a shot, or forcing you then to stand even further back from the baseline making your own forehand shot weaker given it's greater distance to Nadal's side of the net.

well thats clear. which is probably the overall point. seems to me that if ues are a subjective concept then the same must apply to fes. to me and using your federer example that it would have been impossible for fed to hit a ue due to nadals vicious spin. and that kind of my point. what would have counted as a ue for fed in that match. a rhetorical question btw as you mention the subjective nature of ues and so a definitive answer to the question is impossible

ANY unforced error in that match where there was limited pressure or force such as a double fault, a simple volley he missed or a net shot with Nadal not even in the service court to even indulge in a mini badminton session

cant have been many shots that filled that criteria

and as i said earlier if ues are subjective and i agree they can be then a case can be made for dfs to be fes on the basis of pressure from the opponent

theres clearly no definitive answer to any of this but its an interesting topic

im playing devils advocate about dfs btw, as ive always thought of them as ues but i can definitely see a case for some to consider them as fes

I think the main point about UEs is that an opponent failed to apply pressure when they simply could still have done.

Sinner got away with this one IMO. But not sure he will against a different opponent.

Jul 7, 2025 -- 9:32PM, Angela Rebecchi wrote:

Yeah the body language, movement and less panic against heavy hitters were all good signs. Be very interesting to see. I'm on Amanda too. Money aside would love to see Mirra or Saba win, Mirra especially would be one hell of a story

wisey, if it's Amanda and Iga final it's the first time my 2 WTA outright bets have both reached the final since our famous Keys vs Stephens 2017 magic !

Djokovic missed training session today, doesn't look good, Sinner a shoe-in.

WP AR - nice picks.

I was backing Iga when she was around 5.7 as it looked too big v a struggling odds-on Saba in the market!

who is your bigger green, and will you amend before final...?

How is doubles GOAT Siniakova not invited to US Open mixed?

because they want to pair the 'top' singles players whether thats by ranking or mass appeal. so thats siniakova out. tbh i like what theyre trying to do. doubles tennis is a joke and theres no better illustration of that then a pairing of hijikata and pel who only met prior to the tournament and who got in the draw as alternates i believe making the wimbledon final. that is embarrassing and the fact they beat the top ranked doubles pair in arevalo and pavic just shows you that doubles traditionally is where poor singles players go to die.

Wooden spoon comp update after SF:
Caramba
Women's:
Rus (needs Swiatek to lose the final to win the Wooden spoon)

edy
Women:
Rus (needs Swiatek to lose the final to win the Wooden spoon)

Players left competing for the wooden spoon:
McCabe, Rodesch

Birrell, Rus

Hsieh and Ostapenko get the job done !

https://hamburg-open.com/en/spielerinnen/

That is a link to the official website of the Hamburg Open where they present confirmed players. The linked to English version gets the names of

Tadde Maria (Tatjana Mary), Xinyu Wang (Xinju Wang...I guess here you could potentially give them transliteration benefit of the doubt even if there is an official WTA spelling of Wang's first name), Noma Noha Akugue (Acugue), Nastasja Schunk (Nastasya Schunk), Elsa Jacquemot (Jacquemont) and Leyre Romero Gormaz (Gorma) wrong. So three German names in this German tournament are wrong on the English language website.

Is it too much to ask someone...anyone....to look at such a page for just a minute before publishing it?

apply for the job!

Venus Williams received a wild card into Washington.

A wild hare sighting in Newport!

Jul 11, 2025 -- 8:54PM, edy wrote:

Venus Williams received a wild card into Washington.

WOAH! The ATM is back.

Jul 11, 2025 -- 10:27PM, edy wrote:

A wild hare sighting in Newport!

an actual hare or are you teeth shaming some player again?

Footage from Bill Ackman's Newport match.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zPE2WVFKWU

It was an actual hare. Also, you are the one known for explicitly shaming Mladenovic et al. for teeth.

The W50 Aschaffenburg centre court looks very nice. Even the clay looks good.

I've only body shamed one player, Mladenovic, which was payback for sabotaging Sharapova's chances at Roland Garros 2017.
You have sabotaged at least two, Halep for her nose, and Noskova for her teeth.

Jul 7, 2025 -- 9:22PM, Angela Rebecchi wrote:

How do you see Igas chances wisey? I'm on her outright as think she's playing the best I've ever seen her on grass

We did it wisey. Iga shines bright !

Sadly no wooden spoon for Arantxa Rus, mine and edy's pick. Was still quite the run to have someone lasting all the way til the final day. Kimberly Birrell is our wooden spoon winner.
Will probably do this again at US Open.

Still proud to have done better than most others in both men's and women's. A welcome change from always going out in the first round in certain other comps.

And thanks for giving live updates and such on who is still in the running. That's a bit of work.