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Jo-Wilfried Tsonga v Milos Raonic
Jo-Wilfried Tsonga v Milos Raonic
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Replies: 263
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I'm a decent chap, but I think we should learn to laugh at everyone and ourselves, sexism is hilarious so please don't try to kill it off.
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these are public forums edy. freedom of speech in action. maybe change your name to AdolfHitler if you have an issue with that. or alternatively quit reading them and taking yourself so seriously?
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IQ of a salad? I think that is being a bit harsh on radishes and tomatoes to be fair.
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Freedom of speech is an often used excuse to express...controversial views. It does however not cover hateful speech or criminalisation of whole countries and races, but I'm sure you're aware of that.
It does however clearly cover the freedom for me to express my concerns, which I was respectful enough to explain long and verbose instead of simply calling names, about such views. I even asked him to clarify his repeated racist and xenophobic remarks on numerous occasions, including through the private message system, to no avail really. Instead of looking at the things at hand and thinking about his racial remarks he looks for excuses, blames others and seems to be imagine I'm part of some gang that's out to get him and his statistics. A gang that has supposedly existed since 2006 when he made some website and ever since then they've been trying to ridicule him with every means possible at every opportunity to make devalue his statistics. Which is complete nonsense in regards to me as I don't question his believes whenever he posts one of his statistics. It's really simple, you know? If he wouldn't post that many unbearably xenophobic things about a whole host of countries we wouldn't be talking about this at all. Again, putting all eastern europeans, italians and argentines under fixing suspicions regardless of their history is not covered by the so often cited freedom of speech. At least it isn't in western democracies. I'm sorry to tell you. That got nothing to do with me being Hitler, which was funny, yet somewhat tragic, to read as I'm the one with the clear stance against racism here. Not talking about harmless jokes when I say that, there's nothing wrong with those. This WTA thing: Yeah maybe I overreacted a bit about it in this case. I have to admit somewhat of a fault from my side here as well. He might've simply tried to be humourous there. |
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Says the person who drove a Serbian Betfair customer off the site because of the history of his country.
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First of all I didn't drive him off the site and secondly I tried to explain that to you and why I think his thinking was dangerous.
If you don't remember, here it is again
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He hasn't been seen on here since, has he? And none of the private message you sent and quoted there had any link to his betting questions.
I advise caution with betting of matches involving players from a number of countries. Experience of betting tells you that there are some nationalities involved in more unusual scores, markets and match results than others. I have posted statistics to show those differences too. It is not xenophobia. I am not scared of those nationalities, nor do I criticise other people who use Betfair because of their nationality. This site would be even better if it could be used by people from every country as it would be more diverse and useful in terms of information. And you exaggerate in reference to 'all Eastern europeans'. I bet with caution on matches involving Russians, former Russians, Serbians and Italians and any combination thereof. I do so because of experience of players from those countries having been involved in unusual markets. And moreso, because the statistics show those variances from the norm. I want to bet on a fair contest, as do most people on here. Deny that sport is corrupt if you want. I don't dispute what you say when you do that. But you seem to have a problem with those that think the opposite. Fine, too, but to say that someone is xenophobic or racist because they use different factors to you to ensure caution with their bets and they post those, is a bit too assuming. |
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I'm pretty sure he didn't leave directly after that. By the looks of things he has since been banned. Not surprising due to his foul mouth, but not my doing. Don't blame me for driving somewhat off the site when in fact he probably massivley misbehaved somewhere on the forum and was subsequently banned or given a timeout.
You forgot about romanians and lithuanians which I'm perfectly sure you have made similar remarks about in the past. Lithuanians just last week. You know the problem I have with that is that you look at the nationality. Why not say "hmmmmmm player A has some pretty darn strange scores" instead of also criminalising players that have been pros for years but have never raised any suspicions? |
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*someone off the site
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oh, you did write former russians....well...yeah, soviet states and former soviet allies and puppet states don't make up most of eastern europe
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Or did you mean....the Kazakhs that have other citizenships now? E.g Shvedova and Pervak?
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*russians that have other citizenships now
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Matches involving two players from those named countries. It isnt difficult to understand. Tennis is not about individual players, any match fixing is unlikely to be for the profit of the player. Behind the scenes links. The world of tennis you never see on court.
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'lose this game, make a profit, next time, when you play this other player, he'll let you win' etc.
Do you think that the fact that some 'lucky losers' lose their qualifying matches so that players they have links with can qualify for a tournament is match fixing, because I do. |
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So, let's say there was this belgian player who has retired now. He was never really in love with the sport, was only in it for the money especially late in his career. Said player had some pretty darn funny scores, more than most eastern europeans combined (and then there's also this guy, I think he was austrian who had drifts in like....5 consecutive weeks or so).
Anyway, back to the belgian: That belgian and austrian combined were responsible for the majority of clear cut fixes in their fixing prime. Why not put all belgians and austrians under scrutiny? Or at least the belgian's brother? As for the qualifying thing: If the person loses during qualies on purpose because she wants the other person to get into the draw, while being assured of a place himself/herself, then it is match fixing. Not the bad kind though. It's more of a friendly gesture than evil and organized crime stuff. |
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Most match fixing is not for financial gain, I think. It is for reciprocal agreements between the players' teams, for crowd entertainment, for rankings. It is still match fixing, it still affects my betting. And the probability of it being between players from the countries I am more cautious with, is therefore greater than for those I have not seen it with. I have no idea about the Belgian or Austrian players to which you refer, yes they had some strange results, but in terms of statistics for Belgian and Austrian players, there is no major discrepancy from the norm.
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Even Murray throwing matches in the UAE because he wanted to prepare for Indian Wells is match fixing. He stated this was what he did, publicly. He knew in advance that they would not win - people who bet on him did not.
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how do you know all the "in and outs" of this alleged matchfixing? Or is it only your own take of things that you confuse with factual information?
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Aha, I think what you mean could simply be caused by players growing up together and e.g visiting the same academies from a young age and being bffs.
Funnily there's Vinci against Pennetta, who at one point might've or might not have decided to alternate matches (at not so important tournaments). While it's not the most competitive approach I could understand not wanting to kill yourself playing one of your best and few friends and in the interest of friendship to decide alternating matches. I'm sure it happens that close friends, or at least one of them (with or without the other one knowing), either simply can not or do not want to bring their best effort to the court. Don't think it is done on purpose that often and influences the broader picture, with the masses of matches played each year, that much. Also don't think there are a lot of completely unrelated players agreeing on just manipulating matches for shits and giggles or crowd entertainment. It's not WWE. But yeah, maybe the friendship angle does happen more often in certain countries that have a more centralised tennis academy structure and with players from the same generation. What about france? Still doesn't explain "russian vs lithuanian " or "with their nationality and history no bet" when talking about a romanian playing an italian. I do not think Dulgheru, Knapp and Andreev-Berankis are the closest of friends. I don't think russians in general are all that popular in the former annexed regions and they're all vodka sipping brothers. |
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SoA has a point but I have often wondered about how much of a cognitive bias do we suffer from.
For example, French players have a reputation for choking so when a French player does that I just reinforce my beliefs, regardless of the fact that choking is likely individual thing that a national thing. On the other hand, it is fair to assume that there is in fact a cultural difference between players. For example (fictional), Spaniards are taught from youth to never give up and always fight, while the French believe more in inspiration over perspiration so when things go badly they are more prone to say "it is not my day". Due to this, when they start losing from a winning position they have trouble mentally coping with that. |
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But seriously, look into that. Instead of looking simply at nationalities, put some subtlety and work into it to look at players who went to academies together from a young age, players who are friends, players who grew up together, players who might've even lived together. Stuff like that.
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Who was cheering Tsonga on yesterday? Llodra. Let's have a look at their match history. Tsonga 5-0. Llodra retired three times. Do you not think that suggests anything? Llodra has played 620 career matches, 29 retirements. So, doesn't it strike you as odd that he has retired 3 out of 5 times against Tsonga?
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I think Llodra is simply a quitter. Maybe he quits a bit more against Tsonga as he doesn't fancy his chances anyway and wants to save them both the trouble.
You however also sometimes have to look at the circumstances. E.g. last time out in Indian Wells Llodra was pissed at everyone and the tournament for the racial controversy he became involved with during his first round match against Gulbis. |