England v New Zealand

Great contest this.

Brilliant, flowing game of rugby and we've got complaints about negative kicking out of the ball. Can't please everyone.

the Twickenham crowd is Englands 16th man

Billy V is having some game

And he's off....

'momentum is with the men in white'

Vunipola OFF

PENALTY

chance for England to get the lead

market realising now

Look at McCaw's face when he gets penalised

But I can normally do what I like ref!

nice time to have a bit of NZ now I reckon

Nov 16, 2013 -- 3:16PM, West Coast Eagles wrote:

Sin Bin - Kieran Read

lolol mccaw's face "but we used to be mates"

England 22-20 All Blacks

Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home
Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home

I traded out my Eng bet for small green

Tom Youngs comes on and the line-out turns to dog doo.

YES

West Coast Eagles, rein yourself in, good lad.

This is Rugger Union, we are traditionally understated even in the event of extraordinary victory.

we finally get some ball

great pass, Nonu

inevitable if you turn it over in your own 22

How good is that? No other team in the world can do that, just utterly brilliant.

England have given a great account of themselves here, but they can't cope with NZ at their best in the backs.

Miss it.....

Balls.

Was that ball grounded? Looked dodgy to me!

I think it was eventually.

Good kick

before the back pass rule football was great - its now even better - this game is compleling viewing - but could it be better if the rules forced more play.

great offload by Nonu to assist the try

he's fcuking crap

eng scrum half

Looked like there was a hand under it

Oh no, it's Toby Flood to save the day.....

augurs well for the 2015 final this game

hells bells the ABs are blowing like whales

And Flood gives away a crucial penalty.

How does this pillock keep getting picked?

lot of England benchers well of this level

Well this could be it. Can't see England getting another try

8 point gap - let's hope Robshaw has been to rugby clock school this year

Definitely a shame here that the first XV have done an excellent job, but the subs have been a shambles. Youngs, Youngs and Flood have all been useless.

Saying that, Morgan has been decent.

How long to go please?

Bloody hell, Read is so good. Was he legal though? Ashton tackled a man without the ball though to be fair.

6mins

just turning it over within seconds every time they get it, giving away possession at line out

much to work on

Flood> how the fcuk does he get picked?

Thanks

Playing for Leicester always helps....

It's great knowing Read is there to take over from McCaw when the time is right

Is there a mass injury list of england centres right now?

difference was failure to secure ball once in the 22 leading to the decisive try

and the change at scrum half, wac he is

I don't know about a mass, but Barritt and Tuilagi are first-choice and both are out. It certainly doesn't help, but I don't think England can pretend that they have all that much quality in that area.

Think Eng have to be very happy with this overall given some key players missing. They have certainly done far better than I expected.

You have to hand it to this English team...hard to beat, great character.

Good grief look at FLood there ponderous with the ball and taking a big hit

There's still a class gap, but it's not a chasm any more. Couldn't ask much more from England than they've give today.

ffs flood, dummied his own man

wac

Thought we showed good spirit from 14 down early doors.  Even thought we might win it for a while.

Now for the main event Vis, Ireland vs Aus.  The NH's best chance of the day

Well, good luck Ireland in a week's time. I don't think NZ will be letting up for a second in that match. History beckons.....

Yes, we've had the final rehearsal, now for the QF game

We might try and nobble the Abs with a few dodgy Oysters, RM.  Only hope we have.

It works for everyone else, may as well give it a go.

Different quality of opposition coming up next though. I make Ireland slight favourites for this one, although if it starts tipping down I make them 1/4 shots. Great chance for Schmidt to get some confidence going.

Tight-five should be a no-contest, but Ireland have to keep Folau well away from the ball at all times. That bloke is a phenomenal athlete.

Well done New Zealand. Very physical encounter. I'll bet the 1.11 boys were shiitting bricks at 22-20. Many plus points for England to take out of the game and a few minuses but overall I'd rather be England running into the world cup than New Zealand.

The 1.11 boys would have been topping up at 1.50+ if there was any clarity at that point - but I guess most were behind the sofa

Dunno about that Eeternaloptimist, but you are justifying your name. I'd rather be with the team that has only lost once in over 2 years personally.

But world cups are very different rugby man. New Zealand have earned the right to play an exceptional brand of champagne rugby because they have been consistently better than the opposition and that helps breed faith in the brand and relaxation in execution. So in any circumstances outside of the highest pressure matches they will do so and it will pay off for them. They aren't immune from feeling pressure though, as we saw in parts today and in world cups they quiver more than a shiitting dog. They even needed help over the line from the official against France last time around in their own country.

England showed today how New Zealand can and will be beaten by either them or South Africa in 2015. Their front five are simply not strong or technical enough.

who are the 1.11 boys?   they were 1.17 before KO

Perhaps one step at a time Etnernal.

Let's not forget, Eng have to get out of the group first

All teams have to get out of the group and England's is tough enough for sure but you've got to have an opinion and it should be based on logic and for me Australia can't live with England's front five now and that will be worse with another two years on England's back. Wales are a different proposition at the Millenium and their front row are already creaking and will need zimmer frames by 2015 and behind Jones and Jenkins the cupboard isn't exactly stocked with world class props.

Fantastic game. England did far better than I thought. Don't feel so bad about losing to them now! The forwards are terrific. Breakdown work is awesome. Pity that in Farrell they have one of the  worst international 10's I think I've ever seen. Twelvetrees is rubbish as well. Some decent backs and England are serious players.

I thought Twelvetrees had some pretty good runs yesterday, it was Tomkins who appeared to be a passenger throughout, getting lost and turned over too often. Tuilagi still massively important to England in the 13 shirt.

Farrell is awful. And really needs a punch to the head. Absolute grub.


The England attack in the backs against Aust and NZ is truly terrible. Need to sort that.

This young Watson lad at Bath will soon be a contender if he keeps on playing as he is, even if he isn't a centre.

Yes, Watson is a seriously silky runner. Going to struggle to fit him in at full-back though, that's one backline position England have plenty of depth.

Farrell is a poor playmaker, but a very good kicker and a top quality defensive 10. Sometimes that's the price you pay, there are very very few 10s who are genuinely good at both attack and defence.

I'm happy with him as a kicker and defender.  Sometimes that is all you need from your 10 at the very highest level where tries are less important.

That is very sad Vis. To be happy that your 10 can tackle and kick goals. I grew up in the era of Mark Ella and he was just one of a dozen brilliant playmakers. I've always thought a 10 should be the most fantastic player in the team. I think great 10s always are. Think Carter,Larkham,Wilkinson. To settle for a tackling goalkicker is about the worst thing I've ever heard.

Just train a flanker to kick goals and stick him in at 10.

How did you get Wilkinson in a list of great playmakers?

I'm not convinced Andrew Mehrtens could get on such a list either, but I always massively admired the way he played.

Mehrtens could play. Soft at contact and defence like most 10s but could play. Threw in Wilko to keep NH types happy!

Wilko still the best English 10 I can think of

It is a bit of a shame, I think.  If England could just unearth a 10 who could play, they would be mightily impressive.

Can they not give someone a go?

Tuilagi and Brown are the only two decent Engliah backs imo.  If Woodward was around he would be rolling the dice a bit more with selection to try and unearth some special talent.

Wilko may be the best English 10, but never a playmaker.

England aren't renowned for playmaking 10s. I'm struggling to think of one. Stuart Barnes? England aren't renowned for playmaking at all. The SH are always best at everything.

It's Freddie Burns that is the Spencer-style maverick, but then his defending is patchy and he makes errors. I think he's a better option than Flood, who doesn't really do anything particularly well.

The point of Wilkinson was that he did all the basics, plus had a half-break. Rarely did he do anything that you would be called exciting, but he set others up well. Not flashy, but good enough to make consecutive world cup finals.

When you are English you get used to having nothing more than a steady 10 at best.  Wilkinson was never the most expansive and outside of him who have Eng ever had who was a good 10?  Don't forget for every Carter/Larkham there is a Cooper/Michalak. I'll take a steady game winner any day.

Wilko is MILES better than Farrel. And a nice bloke too. Farrell is a toerag.

'I'll take a steady game winner every day' . What does that mean?

One who makes his kicks essentially.

As I said just train flanker to kick goals and stick him at 10. Consider this. All these goal kicking gurus from the NH have about a 10% success rate against SH teams. Maybe it's time NH rugby thought of a way to to be the best instead of second rate.

Being the best doesn't necessarily mean you have to have an expansive 10, you need the full works outside too.  For England that just never happens bar the turn of the century team.  Fra/Wal and to a lesser extent Ire have been blessed with some wonderful backs in modern times, but then they don't seem to have won many world cups either.

I don't have the answers either! Engaland went well today but sometimes the AB's play at a speed and accuracy that no one can match.

Back in April I watched a club game in Dunedin. The backs were nothing special but the work of the forwards was astonishing. There were no bludgers. They play hard.

But Eng did show they can compete with an NZ team in a proper match with a few decent lads to come back in. England won't be matching the backline play of NZ any time soon, but we know only too well at the highest level it can often come down to defence, fat lads and 3 pointers.

We often think we can beat NZ too. Doesn't happen often! No team has won as many games against NZ as Australia but they are still only about 1/3.

Considering that this NZ team was being talked of as the best ever and the best in any sport anywhere in the known universe before yesterdays game (by sections of the UK press anyway) that must mean, based on last year and this game, that when this Eng team gel they are assured of that accolade and must rank in the top few teams ever?
































No, me neither..........

I don't know the England 9 Dickson but after watching his last two games I'm impressed. Doesn't seem to run like Care or Youngs which is ok by me because he is fast to the breakdown and clears well. I rate him.

surely if there is one thing we have learnt then it is that even a top class team is rarely, if ever, as good as the hype.
i thought england played very well in general but probably not as well as they can. if they had not started a bit sluggishly then who knows.
france & england both showed that while beating the AB's is still a mighty task they are certainly not infallible.

The England attack is woeful. They won't be beating NZ any time soon till they get it sorted. In fact all the NH teams I've watched so far are very ordinary in attack. Breakdown good,set piece good,defence good,but attack almost non existant.

No doubt one of them will limp in the final again and then run a SH hotpot mighty close.