Rugby
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Rugby Union to be exempt of Premium Charge as of Monday 30/9
Rugby Union to be exempt of Premium Charge as of Monday 30/9
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Replies: 77
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There are other exchanges?!?
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This is obviously a theoretical example and I'm not suggesting that anyone should bet anywhere other than Betfair
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1.01 Layer 28 Sep 13 10:58
Lat, suppose yr 1k up on other sports. Bet to win 1k on Rugby on here and lay it to cover at another exchange (or bet on a 2-way market on here arb it on the high street). Then, lose on here and PC is zero but you collect the non-bf bet. So 1k up net. Or win on here and PC is still 50% (give or take 10%) on the original 1k but you have a 1k exempt rugby win on top, so 1.5k up net. Think that's right. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't had my coffee quota yet... I'm puzzled as to why a customer would make a £1500 net profit in the second part of your example? In the first part of your example, where the rugby bet loses on bf, you seem to include the win elsewhere when referring to the customer's net position. To ensure consistency, I would have presumed that the loss elsewhere should have been included when referring to the customer's net position, where the rugby bet wins on Betfair, in the second part of your example. Presumably, if the customer wins the £1000 rugby bet on Betfair, he would have lost an approximately equal amount elsewhere? The customer would therefore have made a £2000 gross profit on Betfair; of which PC would be applicable on the original £1000. Depending on the commission paid and charges generated, a 50% Higher Rate PC payer may be approximately £1500 up net (after all charges including PC and the relevant rebate) on Betfair. However, assuming that the customer would indeed also have lost approximately £1000 elsewhere, I would presume that he would be in a similar net position to that he was in prior to making the rugby bet. He would be up approximately £500 net, depending on commission paid and charges generated. I don't dispute the likely effectiveness of the strategy you've outlined but it appears that your example should be amended. |
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I think you're right, jt, I failed to include the outside loss in the BF rugby win scenario. Somebody a bit more switched on than me needs to tinker with the numbers. Like you suggest tho', I think the strategy stands up.
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Well, I have to say that having been vaguely excited by the prospect of what might happen on the Exeter v Leicester match yesterday in light of this, the in-play market was pretty thin....
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One of many examples of how PC would be reduced/net winnings increase:
A 50% PC payer has won £1,000 on other sports during the week. On Sunday, he bets this £1,000 at odds of 2.00 on a Rugby Union market. If it wins, he's made total gross profit of £2,000 and net profit of £1,500 (50% PC paid on other sports winnings of £1,000 and nothing paid on rugby union because of the rebate). The next week he does the same but this time the rugby bet loses. He's therefore won £0 for the week (+£1,000 on other sports minus £1,000 on rugby union) and so pays no PC. Over the two weeks, he's won a net £1,500. Under the old system, he'd not bet on rugby union, and would have two weeks where he's won £1,000 gross and £500 net and so he's up a net £1,000. £500 less than the new system. If he did bet on rugby union under the old system, his £2,000 win in week 1 would be a net £1,000 and week 2 would be £0. Again, a net win over the two weeks of £1,000, which is £500 less than the new system. Of course, this example is simplistic as it does not take into account commission, commission generated, lifetime position being less than weekly position, etc. But the general point stands: if losses count, then Betfair's PC revenue will be slashed and PC-paying punters' net profit will increase significantly. |
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Recently we introduced a special offer removing the Premium Charge (PC) from all Rugby Union bets for a trial period. The intent of the trial was to grow activity and liquidity in Rugby Union. After customer feedback we have now suspended this offer while we look at ways to improve the customer experience. We want to offer more initiatives like this to increase growth and liquidity. When doing this we need to canvas customer opinion prior to launch to ensure we have an optimal customer experience.
We appreciate your patience and feedback and look forward to working with you to make the Betfair experience a better one. We will be rebating any Premium Charge paid in Rugby Union on bets placed and matched between 23rd of September to 2nd of October 14:10:00.(Time of announcement) including those that have yet to settle. Please reach out to your Account Manager if you would like to participate in a future trial of this nature or have feedback on how it could be improved. Regards The Betfair Team wtf is this about?  didnt last long! |
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Just got the same. That leaves an even worse taste.
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After 'customer feedback' is just bobbins. Who in their right mind is going to say "No, actually, you're alright," to what was being proposed? This can only be because they'd not thought it through.
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what a joke,as you say what customer is going to say no.
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and whens the rebates being given back ?
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They've been given back, but mine's wrong
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mine hasnt been done
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Assume they give it the shortest trial in history as they were nt pleased with the pick up in liquidity? A week hardly a big enough sample ffs
Well if it was a bit better advertised and announced bar a few emails that most send to the spam box then...... |
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Honestly, BJG, I am convinced it has to be because of the implications - discussed in this thread - that hadn't been considered.
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correct,absolute joke,not fantastic matches on last week either.
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Had nothing to do with marginal pick up in liquidity. Many who would have provided the boost simply didn't because there were too many unanswered questions about the ill-thought-out promotion that needed answering first.
The promotion was scrapped because of BF's lack of understanding / insight into their own fee structure / customer intelligence that led them to introducing a simple way for those paying PC to reduce it massively. I suspect there are few at BF who truly understand all the issues surrounding PC and the implications to its changes. Clearly the brains behind this promotion missed a rather large problem with their brainchild. |
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What a shameful episode.
Agree no conspiracy or sinister motive. Just a poor understanding of their product. fwiw, It's hardly surprising with such a complex pricing system. |
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Totally embarrassing and unprofessional but says it all that we aren't totally surprised by this latest show of utter incompetence
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Taken from the GB thread
Joined: 17 Nov 02 | Topic/replies: 2 | Blogger: Golden's blog Betfair's attitude was summed up for me with a conversation I had with the Premium Team, who told me the trial was being scrapped as they felt customers would 'abuse' it. Us abusing it is the reason not them not having a clue. |
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It's a bit rich BF complaining that customers are abusing them
Tells you all you need to know about their focus. |
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Is anyone surprised by this?
Poorly thought out, poorly organised, complete farce. It's a complete hilarity that betfair use the term abuse in their defence, bearing in mind that when I was paying premium charges it took me a long time to find out because nobody told me! |
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still not been given the trial rebate back,has anyone else ?
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Had mine yesterday, book. Better chase it up.
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already have 1.01, keep saying their get to me,blah blah blah
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gl, mate.
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Judging my the amount of cash in the market on the ITM Cup game right now that isn't mine, I'd say this could have served to lower liquidity further....
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Picked up a bit now. Still no backers, mind.....
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How long is it going to take the betfair brains to come up with an alternative offer to improve our experience?
Spread should be 3-4 days but is currently 12-14 months |
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I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about this in recent days. Most of my 'solutions' ultimately lead to a dead end. The only way I can see anything close to a happy medium is if PC is halved on union, thus reducing the advantage of arbing PC liabilities away while at the same time giving a bit back to encourage liquidity. Whether that would be sufficient to incentivise people to return?
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Been told something is in the pipeline re. rugby markets and should hear in a couple of weeks. That was also my recommendation Lat. when I spoke to my a/c manager. Live in hope I suppose.
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Fingers crossed indeed, John. Quite ironic that, for once, it was BF giving too much away that proved the initial idea's downfall.
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Spoke to my a/c manager yesterday. He seemed to be under the impression that an alternative wouldn't be too long in the offing (mentioning Nov 1) but couldn't say anything concrete. It did sound like the intention was there but the intention was there a year ago, so I'm not holding my breath.
He reiterated their desire for more feedback, so I had a rant (poor guy). The subject has been discussed to death on the Gen Betting forum and until something changes, I can't see that the feedback will change, so I'm not sure what they're waiting for. Fwiw, my suggestion, as a starter is to have a weekly allowance of £500 - £1000 of profits before PC is incurred. This would have a proportionately larger effect on the smaller PC payers and hence make the system a bit more equitable, like a tax free allowance for the lowest earners. |
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Are they actually looking at doing something across the board, though, Mate, or is it something that they're only targeting at certain markets? I assumed it was the latter...
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He seemed to be focused on a replacement Rugby promo, Lat but given the outcome of the last one, I thought they needed an alternative approach
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Fair play! |
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Well, I go away for a week and completely miss one of the more bizarre episodes in BF's history
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Welcome back to the madhouse, Vis
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