1325 dead in one day as tories provide links to fake certificates to avoid wearing masks

How long for Johnny? How long would you imprison the elderly in their own homes without any visitors?

Jan 8, 2021 -- 6:25PM, PorcupineorPineapple wrote:

A simple estimate from you will do, using your judgement and what you know about death rates etc.No, it's utterly childish and beneath me. For one, you're deliberately confusing fear with risk. Understanding that a person is at serious risk of catching the virus is real, not cowardly.Now, I thought you had some serious points that no-one could counter. If this is the best you can do, can I suggest you get back to your GCSE mocks instead.

I can understand why you don't want to. That would mean acknowledging it is happening in large numbers. Beneath you

Until the vaccine arrives.

a few days ago i was confident johnson had vaccs covered ,on the grounds not even this idiot after the year he,s had would set his 15 mill vacc number and bang on about day after day if he didnt no it was in the bag
now i,m beginning to think he,s been banging on about vaccs all week because he was forewarned about these last few days horro show numbers were coming and vaccs were the latest dead cat,and we,ll talk about my latest world beating 15 mill jabs failure when it happens and hope death numbers might have plateaued by then

A starting point, perhaps.

More than 30,000 extra deaths not linked to Covid-19 have now taken place in private homes in England and Wales since the start of the coronavirus pandemic, new figures show.

Extra deaths – known as “excess deaths” – are the number of deaths that are above the average for the corresponding period in the previous five years.

A total of 30,785 excess deaths in homes in England and Wales that did not involve Covid-19 were registered between March 7 and November 13, according to PA news agency analysis of data published by the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

I can understand why you don't want to. That would mean acknowledging it is happening in large numbers. Beneath you


Who's acknowledging anything? It's completely nebulous and is pure guesswork. I think I'd need a tin foil hat to get started for one thing.




Now, do you actually have anything? Any one thing? At all?

Jan 8, 2021 -- 6:29PM, Johnny The Guesser wrote:

Until the vaccine arrives.

So, for months potentially. You're happy locking away the elderly (more likely than not widowed) for months without visitors? That's your solution? The rest can go to the pub and whatnot but the price is poor Mrs Muggins is spending her 7th month indoors without having anyone in for a cuppa?

PP - As I have said before - There is no good solution to this . There are only less bad solutions.

The least bad solution for the nation as a whole is for the vulnerable to lock themselves away until the spring.

Why should the youngsters have their lives ruined when the virus causes them little harm ?

chris giles times go to man gold standard for excess deaths,will on current numbers be hitting 100,000 by end of jan,at that point i,m not really bothered about arguing about how many would have
died anyway
got knocked over by a jet ski testing positive
fell of a cliff testing positive
etc
etc

Shirley 15 Mill vaccs offered by valentines is a cert


Oh the people didn't want them when offered...

I think people just need to calm down a bit. Johnson is pretending this roll out is a tough target when clearly its no such thing and by mid Feb people making up the vast majority of the deaths will have been vaccinated. Theres a bit of a time lag as well but this is nearly done now.

I have never advocated society just opening up as normal whilst the vulnerable shield.

Society would be able to open up  , boosting the economy , but with restrictions particularly in hospitality , and current social distancing rules , personal hygiene messaging etc.

If the vulnerable stay in , they don't catch it , they don't go to hospital , they don't put pressure on NHS.

The NHS is not designed to cope with a pandemic never has and never will

I'd like to hope so, but too many people are getting benefits from lockdown. They will be coming up with all kinds of creative excuses to delay going back to normal.

100,000 tests a day..... They are in the post..


250,000 tests a day...... The capacity is there


500,000 tests a day...... People don't want to pay for them


Moonshot testings..... Dom Cummings... Where's me coat,... I'm off

So you would open pubs, but lock only for the healthy. Maybe have them wear a badge or other marker of health. Anyone else needs to be locked away.


Why should the youngsters have their lives ruined when the virus causes them little harm ?

Love this one. They're not having their lives ruined. They're getting a valuable lesson in privilege and understanding that the kind of freedoms we regularly enjoy aren't to be taken for granted and we have a responsibility when things go bad. That it's just about me, me, me; it's about small sacrifices for big gains for other people.

millions of pzier 40 mill
100 million of oxford
buying millions of moderna at nearly 30 quid a pop that arnt coming till spring,doesnt fill me with confidence,
you can buy 10 oxford for 1 moderna,experts tell us we only need to vacc 40/50% of people about 30/40 mill
tells me they dont think oxford can supply the numbers

PP quote - That it's just about me, me, me; it's about small sacrifices for big gains for other people.

Delightful irony.

IMO Anyone who thinks we are near the end and it will all be over by Easter is in Cuckoo land, that's not aimed at one person but in general.

I hope very much i am wrong, but i doubt it tbh.

Likely we need to re vaccinate, buying more supplies
is one thing they are doing right.

If we don't need them, brilliant,.. But look ahead.

Tell me why it isnt then pecker? Once you have vaccinated all the people who are likely to die what is left to worry about.

They'll be talking about 'long covid', pressure on the NHS, NHS needs a break, is it safe yet, next round of vaccinations etc etc

Dotch i don't think it will transpire to be so simple for a number of reasons, we don't have all the answers just yet by far and i can see a 4th wave...

Millions of public 'servants' wfh, won't give it up lightly, or people on a year's holiday (aka furlough), or millions of kids who can avoid school and get free exam results.

lockdown 3
masks everywhere inside and out

and the result ladies and gentlemen?

MORE CASES

Cider, who stole your joy, just take a break man, live and let live.

Predict this now, there will be people who will never want to go back to proper exams. Arguing it's not fair on the next year.

So you think the vaccines will fail? Or that Johnson will somehow lose 20 million doses down the back of the sofa. Otherwise I cant see how there can be a significant 4th wave.

PP - If this lockdown debate is  about delaying Mrs Muggins' death for the longest time  possible then she needs to avoid contact with the virus. The safest place for her is inside her home.

However ,if this debate is really about Mrs Muggins' quality of life  then it becomes a quality of life question for everybody in society.

At the moment the youngsters , who are at little risk of dying, are sacrificing their quality of life so Mrs Muggins can have a cup of tea with her friend.

It is wrong.

The goalposts have always shifted Dotch. If and when deaths fall, it will be something else. In the summer if you recall, it was a small number of cases, everyone forgot about deaths.

It's marxist / communist nirvana. Kids will just get awarded exam results teachers think they deserve. I can't see a way back now 5 - 17 have effectively missed a year and a half of education.

It won't surprise me if the unions will want teaching from home as a permanent solution.

Jan 8, 2021 -- 6:34PM, PorcupineorPineapple wrote:

Jan  8, 2021 --  7:29PM, Johnny The Guesser wrote:Until the vaccine arrives.So, for months potentially. You're happy locking away the elderly (more likely than not widowed) for months without visitors? That's your solution? The rest can go to the pub and whatnot but the price is poor Mrs Muggins is spending her 7th month indoors without having anyone in for a cuppa?

We either let the vulnerable shield if they wish or we lock everyone up.

You seem upset that the vulnerable would not be able to see anyone. At the moment no one can see anyone.

As the other poster said no good solutions but we will have more resources to protect the vulnerable if we those who want get out there and get on.

How many vulnerable people are there frogIT? Roughly?  Do you think they all have the resources to isolate?

Surely the vulnerable are already isolating due to the lockdown. Its only for a few weeks anyway and they will have all had their jabs.

You can bet then plenty of them will expect to be allowed to get on with things. They wont want to stay locked up to protect younger non vaccinates ones.

Some of the £400 billion shared might have assisted. We've spent about £6,000 for every man, woman and child in the country I believe.

Jan 8, 2021 -- 6:37PM, Dotchinite wrote:

I think people just need to calm down a bit. Johnson is pretending this roll out is a tough target when clearly its no such thing and by mid Feb people making up the vast majority of the deaths will have been vaccinated. Theres a bit of a time lag as well but this is nearly done now.

This idea that after 1 jab people are 'vaccinated' is totally unscientific.

They may have a little bit of immunity from getting Covid badly for an unknown amount of time. There is no trials for the one jab policy. It is certainty not the silver bullet some people think it will be.

The situation will continue until society decides it is over and gets back out there. Covid is going no where.

Yes - Cider - spot on - and you try getting any of them make a financial contribution at the end of all this. They will squeal like squashed pigs.

I've read on here that 20 million are 'at risk'. Is this correct, and are a lot of them at risk simply because they are overweight?

Johnny, even a pause in pay increases when inflation is near zero for the lucky ones with guaranteed jobs and great pensions sent the far left apoplectic.

I've heard it all now. PP

"The elderly should not shield because it teaches the youngsters a valuable life lesson."

Staggering stuff.

Jan 8, 2021 -- 7:11PM, frog1000 wrote:

Jan  8, 2021 --  7:34PM, PorcupineorPineapple wrote:Jan

The point is that if we all lock down then it is a shorter time for all. That way we can all be our and in some form of normality in spring, where kiddo there was talking about locking away the elderly for a year or so while others can go out partying.


It's basically just a covid passport. If you're under the age of 40 you can live your life, but the elderly can only look on through their windows as the nights start to draw in again next autumn.

How long would be satisfactory for you?

Until the virus is down far enough and we have a plan to keep it properly under control and not just repeat again. See early December for how not to do it. We have a window of opportunity with the vaccines so we shouldn't be talking months and months. Sorry if that cramps your partying lifestyle though.

i said nothing about partying , as you well know.

That's not a defined length of time. What is 'properly under control' in explicit terms?

And what are you allowing to happen when it gets to this point?

fwiw Ireland could legitimately claim to have had it 'properly under control' after six weeks of their highest level of lockdown. Now they are in a tougher one. It's just a fantasy.

The 14-day incidence rate per 100,000 population nationally is now 1,087. One month ago, this rate was just 80.2 per 100,000.

1 in 30 in ,london with xmas/hoils still to come
good look in thinking londons getting back to normal anytime soon,
london transport.car usage figures today,over twice the number in 1st lockdown so a quicker more infectious virus will still be spreading

its why johnson wont promise schools will be back before summer if not its sept at earliest
no school/ no working as normal in london

Jan 8, 2021 -- 7:42PM, PorcupineorPineapple wrote:

The point is that if we all lock down then it is a shorter time for all. That way we can all be our and in some form of normality in spring, where kiddo there was talking about locking away the elderly for a year or so while others can go out partying.It's basically just a covid passport. If you're under the age of 40 you can live your life, but the elderly can only look on through their windows as the nights start to draw in again next autumn.

Shortest time! We have already done almost a year!

as johnson/sunak have proved 3/4 times the short term efforts of late action to keep london economy open has resulted in worse health and wealth outcomes,
sunak now throwing billions more 7,500 at those supposed 3 million self empployed whove missed out,
sunak who,d closed the purse strings in nov has now opened them again to stop people talking about his catastrophic EAT OUT TO DIE OUT AT 50% off,which stopped numbers reaching a lower plateau country wide

"I've read on here that 20 million are 'at risk'. Is this correct, and are a lot of them at risk simply because they are overweight?"


Nobody should be expected to be locked down just to protect some lazy fat slobs. They have all had time to diet now and the fact they havent shows how little regard they have for themselves. Why the rest of us should give a damn ive no idea. Its time for compulsory diets for the obese and forced marches (socially distanced of course) to get them into shape.

We know it is 13 million from the vaccination target.

Fattest nation in Europe, most deaths in Europe, coincidence?

Lib Dems and Greens would win every election if you got rid of all the overweight folks.

I think Malta is fatter than the UK

I’m fat , and I can’t speak on behalf of anyone else
but in my case it’s down to greed and laziness

It is mainly self inflictd to be sure, now they want all healthy people locked up to save themselves.

Quite right

Don’t forget some fat people might have a medical condition

The rest of us are just gluttons

Cider • June 17, 2020 4:37 PM BST
We won't see over 200 reported deaths in the UK again on a single day, unless it's a backdating of missing data.

Almost a third of the population' at risk' is a shameful indictment of the health of the UK.

a lot said about the elderly and children,has anyone thought about the 20-39 year olds who are going to work coming home eating sleeping and repeating.these young people are going stir crazy and have already lost a year of their life.

Yep 19
The 20-39 year olds are the real victims here.
The feelings of the millionals are not being considered.

It should be number 1 priority to make sure Glastonbury happens this year.

All those heartless people going on about 120,000 people losing their lives or 500,000
needing hospital treatment.

Time for a big fund raising effort for those who are missing out on a trip to the nightclub.

you wonder why everyone thinks your a clown.

Jan 8, 2021 -- 9:25PM, Mexico wrote:

Yep 19The 20-39 year olds are the real victims here.The feelings of the millionals are not being considered. It should be number 1 priority to make sure Glastonbury happens this year.All those heartless people going on about 120,000 people losing their lives or 500,000 needing hospital treatment. Time for a big fund raising effort for those who are missing out on a trip to the nightclub.

You are asking for even tougher lockdown than we have now and the opposite of that is having hundreds of thousands at a concert?

There might be something in between where those that want to can stay home and the rest can social distance, wash hands and go to offices, pubs, restaurants and shops.

We have tried it your way of wearning masks and shuting down and it doesn't work.

Went to hospital t'other day. Lots of fat health professionals. WTF are they playin at?

Everyone 19?

Or just everyone who dropped out of school, don't have a job but do have a large collection of shiny hats?

Define everyone.


Oh those poor 20-39 year olds. Bless them, they have suffered.

Shall we forget about the 120,000 who have/will die of covid.  We "need" Glastonbury for the real victims, those aged 20-39. Poor loves.

Frog

When we have social distancing then cases decrease,  hospital admissions fall and deaths decrease.

It has been tried,it works.

Tier1 a d tier2 are not fit for purpose.

Jan 8, 2021 -- 9:42PM, Mexico wrote:

FrogWhen we have social distancing then cases decrease,

We have had social distancing for 10 months.

If you want your oven cleaned you can go on the internet and someone will be around tomorrow. Yes he is trying to make a living too but essential?
Ireland has shut all construction this evening.
Has the UK? No, they are getting on the tube/buses mixing with other trades.
The take up of nursery/school places has been staggering,it seems they are so many "essential" workers.
Traffic volumes in London are high, emm haven't people been told to work from home?

Whatever about March, is it really a "lockdown"?

Lap

Next you will be saying going to Starbucks or a garden centre isn't essential.

But but but what about the poor 20-39 year olds. They are the real victims , not the hundreds of thousands in needing hospital treatment.

I think everyone feels this Mexico,i'd be loathe to separate age,picture of a party in Blarney Co Cork doing the rounds with over a 100 at it last night.
Fair to say this "wave" has been driven by the age group,i won't be a hyprocrite and say if i was young i could have been a part of it.

I don't know what it is as said last week on another thread,whether cold weather,variant a lot more transmissionable but i can't fathom why the numbers are so high,measures were lax and slow but 50/60k for over a week and not going down has me puzzled.

Cider    08 Jan 21 18:23 
Plus, of course, excess deaths are compared to years without covid. The human race has a new disease, which isn't included in the benchmark (obvious, but never mentioned)



Er....that's why the increase in deaths is down to COVID and therefore excess deaths versus previous years !!!!

Yes. So the point is that in a five years the five year average will include five years of history with covid, whereas it doesn't include any now. In March, it will begin to have an impact on the benchmark.

Mexico has gradually been losing the plot for weeks. Throwing out silly examples like Glastonbury to put down the younger generations sacrifices does him no credit whatsoever. For a man of undoubted intelligence its embarrassing.

undoubted?

"Why should the youngsters have their lives ruined when the virus causes them little harm ? Love this one. They're not having their lives ruined. They're getting a valuable lesson in privilege and understanding that the kind of freedoms we regularly enjoy aren't to be taken for granted"

I stopped reading the thread at this, how can anyone reason with individuals that think young people are privileged simply because they are young and the basic freedoms any human being outside a concentration camp has of walking the streets implying it is some kind of honour that shouldn't be taken for granted. Apparently " they being taught a lesson" by having educations wrecked, businesses going under, social lives ruined, futures damaged. People with this type of ridiculous mentality are the type to clap carers on the doorsteps like demented seals screaming save the NHS and then go indoors for a drink and a cig.

I said it on a different thread, millions sacrificed in world wars to preserve the future for the next generation. Now the next generation are being sacrificed for the people that have already lived longer than any time in human history.

In my view, predominately down to social media and the 24 hour corrupted news cycle.

Both wolf 23.47 and Cider 23.57 are spot on.

I don’t think young people are having their lives ruined . Imo they should be leaving school at 16 and starting work

It’s also their job to come up with new ideas , we’re waiting

Maybe they will decide en masse to get on with their lives.

I suggest they decide to try and do something that hasn’t been done before . I know that’s very difficult
But that’s their job

So you dont mean **** up the climate spend all the oil money and run up the National debt to unsustainable levels?

No , I mean something like bill gates and his friend steve Wazniak , working in their parents garage at the age of 14, designing things tinkering and changing the world
Or maybe like Lennon and McCartney or the wright brothers
That sort of thing

Yes you are right. Do something really positive as those few did rather than the generation as a whole.

Well you know it’s surprising once the Beatles had shown the way how many more hundreds , thousands of young people from all walks of life
found to I’m sure their own amazement they could also do something that had never been done before

Yes but I suppose they got a full education and didnt commit a criminal offence by leaving their house without a good reason. Rather hard at present to set up the new microsoft or perform a gig in attempt to become the new beatles.

That’s true , I didn’t say it was easy
But I’m sure they have a guitar , and a notebook , and a pencil

Let It Be

‘ life is what happens today you when you’re busy making other plans’
John Lennon

They may well have a notebook and pencil but with todays education system they cant write.

They must have been very lazy students

That’s ok , it’s natural sometimes