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n88uk
01 Apr 19 17:07
Joined:
Date Joined: 26 May 12
| Topic/replies: 189,699 | Blogger: n88uk's blog
Bercow selected

Clarke (Customs Union)
Boles (Common Market 2.0)
Kyle (Confirmatory Vote)
Cherry (Revoke A50 coming default? Not sure, read this might have changed a bit, it's now parliamentary supremacy)

Bercow currently fending off Brexiteers who are seething about today's business motion and this selection.
Pause Switch to Standard View Indicative Votes 1st April
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Report donny osmond April 1, 2019 5:19 PM BST
long afternoon ahead
Report Angoose April 1, 2019 5:21 PM BST
Motion G, brought by Joanna Cherry, is Parliamentary Supremacy.  This asks the government to seek a further extension if a deal isn't agreed two days before #Brexit. If the EU doesn't accept, MPs will vote between a no-deal Brexit or revoking Article 50.
Report Angoose April 1, 2019 5:49 PM BST
Protest in the house Scared
Report lapsy pa April 1, 2019 5:49 PM BST
The year is 3038!, Parliament enact the weekly voting down of "Theresa May Deal",no one can rememeber this ancient weekly tradition or when it started or what it means.
Report SontaranStratagem April 1, 2019 5:57 PM BST
Theresa May's wax work is rolled out for the vote, lapsy pa?
Report lapsy pa April 1, 2019 5:59 PM BST
No,the automaton, in case of "dance moves".
Report SontaranStratagem April 1, 2019 6:04 PM BST
Actually I think it should be similar to Uncle Alberts in Only Fools And Horses (the version in Rodders nightmare where Damian is world leader)
Report lapsy pa April 1, 2019 6:15 PM BST
As i said on another thread SS,this should have been done on the day after the referendum result,protocol,parties,whatever were all secondary to the well being of the country. Not knowing what they(UK) want after the leaving date is mind boggling.
Report n88uk April 1, 2019 6:19 PM BST
Yes this is what should have been done before Article 50 was activated. But the government has opposed parliament having a say at every stop attempting to run some sort of dictatorship.
Report lapsy pa April 1, 2019 6:23 PM BST
Why isn't She/they being held to account then or is there no one for them to answer to?
Report n88uk April 1, 2019 6:30 PM BST
In normal times May would have gone ages ago. But her own party is so divided that they can't oust her.
Report thegiggilo April 1, 2019 8:58 PM BST
Complete waste of time these votes all will be voted down and heading for a leave with no deal..
Report thegiggilo April 1, 2019 8:58 PM BST
Complete waste of time these votes all will be voted down and heading for a leave with no deal..
Report FredRescue April 1, 2019 9:43 PM BST
3 years after the referendum and Remain being rejected.

Yet parliament is voting on 4 options of Remain tonight? Confused
Report yajyaj April 1, 2019 9:57 PM BST
Customs union drifting 1.55 Happy
Report yajyaj April 1, 2019 10:06 PM BST
4 0 Laugh
Report yajyaj April 1, 2019 10:10 PM BST
Surely he cant give them Wednesday now ffs !
Report yajyaj April 1, 2019 10:15 PM BST
Boles resigns # feckoff
Report mafeking April 1, 2019 10:49 PM BST
even the remoaner clowns can't decide what they want Laugh
Report peckerdunne April 1, 2019 11:26 PM BST
Same as it ever was
Report n88uk April 2, 2019 12:21 AM BST

Apr 1, 2019 -- 10:10PM, yajyaj wrote:


Surely he cant give them Wednesday now ffs !


They already voted to give them Wednesday.

Report n88uk April 2, 2019 12:23 AM BST
This process might look silly, but in reality isn't that silly, it's only looking that way because it's being done now, it should have been done before we even activated Article 50.

If you take away this process, you realise we're just back to May bring back her deal each week, given that it's not even clear she will get it back through the speaker again let and out it actually passing not like there's another proposal seemingly more worthwhile than this.
Report donny osmond April 2, 2019 12:56 AM BST
One remarkable thing is how few Tories supported literally any options tonight:

15 for confirmatory referendum (253 against)

33 for Norway+ (228 against)

10 for Revoke to prevent no-deal (260 against)

37 for customs union (236 against)
Report n88uk April 2, 2019 12:58 AM BST
It's because even it's not explicit there's clear a campaign from Tories to talk all these down, they want this process to fail, though f knows what their plan is if it does.
Report n88uk April 2, 2019 12:59 AM BST
One reason if not the main reason Boles has resigned is he knows that privately Tory whips have been strongly telling MPs don't vote for his Common Market 2.0 something he believes would get much more support if that wasn't the case.
Report thegiggilo April 2, 2019 1:00 AM BST
This is the strange thing,the tories have never really wanted to leave without a deal now they are voting against everythung i just dony get it,like some that were interviewed tonight seem to be surging even further to the right.That's why these future votes just look a complete waste of time,the ERG  were the outsiders they must be taking control...
Report thegiggilo April 2, 2019 1:00 AM BST
This is the strange thing,the tories have never really wanted to leave without a deal now they are voting against everythung i just dony get it,like some that were interviewed tonight seem to be surging even further to the right.That's why these future votes just look a complete waste of time,the ERG  were the outsiders they must be taking control...
Report n88uk April 2, 2019 1:06 AM BST
It's because government isn't engaging in the process. Those who want no deal voted against everything tonight, most on the government's payroll voted against everything too bar the odd few who voted for maybe 1-2 options. That's most the Conservative party right there.
Report n88uk April 2, 2019 1:08 AM BST
When you consider like 160 MPs are on the government payroll.

I mean it's obvious they just want to bring May's deal back again and hope it passes, at what point they give up this strategy though is beyond me. How long can you keep doing this until you finally give it up, a lot of them even doing it atm have to know it's absolute madness what they are currently doing, especially as right now they are driving is into a general election where they will fear being out of power altogether.
Report InsiderTrader April 2, 2019 8:50 AM BST
All those options were against the Tory and Labour manifestos that they stood on to get into Parliament.

That is why so few Tories can break their election promises and vote for any of them.

If MPs were honest about their beliefs they would just revoke A50. They must all know a customs union option is worse than being a member.
Report salmon spray April 2, 2019 9:31 AM BST
The argument about manifestos is disingenuous as Governments NEVER fulfil all their manifesto promises and many reverse them a lot quicker than two years in.
I do agree with IT's other point although whether revoking is a practical political option must be rather doubtful.
n88uk is of course correct that this whole process should have been thrashed out before we triggered Article 50(Labour were equally culpable there)and gone to the EU actually knowing what we want.
Report yajyaj April 2, 2019 9:42 AM BST
Not too sure how many manifesto promises have been broken following an instruction from the public !, this comparison suggests a lack of understanding of Brexiters, we were asked, we give a clear mandate to leave, we demand to leave under the terms specified.
Report salmon spray April 2, 2019 9:48 AM BST
I love these people who think all 17.4 million agreed with their reasoning. As a matter of fact some leavers were talking about the Norway model in favourable terms during the referendum campaign.
Report yajyaj April 2, 2019 10:00 AM BST
In that case they should have voted remain as it was clear from Mr Cameron "we would leave the customs union", lots of people were talking about lots of things, when the pm says something we should listen imo
Report InsiderTrader April 2, 2019 10:08 AM BST
Salmon what advantages does a 'Norway Style deal' have over staying the EU?
Report salmon spray April 2, 2019 10:12 AM BST
None at all IT. It would be a Brexit of sorts though so you could argue that the wishes of some of the referendum majority (not yajyaj obviously) had been met.
Report yajyaj April 2, 2019 10:24 AM BST
Btw, welcome back Trader Happy
Report InsiderTrader April 2, 2019 10:25 AM BST
Order of preference:
1. Free trade deal with EU.
2. Side deals with the EU.
3. Remain in the EU and veto all new moves to federalisation.
4. Remain as ruler taker with no say in Customs Union/Single Market with the EU.
Report Trendy April 2, 2019 12:01 PM BST
What a waste of time these votes have been,they certainly picked the right day.We pay for Bercow and his cronies to pose for the public.
Report Pleasegivemeanailedontip April 2, 2019 1:50 PM BST
I would have said Norway is a remain of sorts and very few leave voters would have had that in mind.

It would have more of an effect on the split of the remain vote between hard remainers and soft norway remainers. Imo.

Plain
Report yajyaj April 2, 2019 2:16 PM BST
Cooper on sky now Devil, sounds like she wants Wed to herself and "another day" if poss to fiddle the indicative votes # p1ssoff
Report salmon spray April 2, 2019 2:49 PM BST
One of the main arguments from Leave was the Common Market was what we signed up to,and we thought that was alright (of course their heroine Thatcher campaigned to stay in that in 1975) but it's the EU and the political dimension we object to. I am quite prepared to accept that some people voted to leave full stop,but the idea that was the only thing being floated in 2016 is just re-writing history.
Report InsiderTrader April 2, 2019 2:59 PM BST
When we signed up we had a say in the rules and regulations.

What some of the extreme elements are suggesting now is we join a customs union where we have no say on the rules, laws and trade deals we would be subject to.

For the 5th largest economy in the world to accept this would be bizarre.

No one pushing for this actually supports it over staying in the EU.
Report salmon spray April 2, 2019 3:13 PM BST
I keep saying I agree with that IT. Believe it or not I was a somewhat apprehensive leaver in 2016,having been an enthusistic one in 1975 ( when I was in my pram of course ). It is now clear that we have embedded ourselves so closely in the EU,or at least in the single market, in the last 40 years or so that we can't actually disentangle ourselves without unacceptable problems. In addition one of the few successes for British politicians in the last few decades,The Good Friday Agreement,was clearly implicitly predicated on both countries staying in the EU,or,again,at least the single market. I would now prefer to revoke Article 50 (and indeed have signed the petition along with 6m others)which is one reason why I object to the likes of yajyaj telling us he knows what all the leavers voted for. I'm not sure that not delivering some sort of Brexit is politically wise in the current febrile climate however so would settle for the Norway model,which probably solves the Irish dilemma.
Report Pleasegivemeanailedontip April 2, 2019 3:18 PM BST
I would have said few support it over leaving.

Norway, or soft brexit for that matter wasnt on the ballot paper because hardly anyone wants it. The mistake people make though is to assume the ones who did voted leave. They didnt. Most of them would have voted remain.
Report n88uk April 2, 2019 3:21 PM BST
If leave had specified what the wanted in the first place they wouldn't be in this position.
Report Pleasegivemeanailedontip April 2, 2019 3:25 PM BST
They did. They wanted to leave
Report InsiderTrader April 2, 2019 3:26 PM BST
I cannot stress enough that all the key players like Dave, Gove, Boris, Corbyn, Farage, Osborne, Clegg, Major, Blair etc said if we vote leave it means leaving the customs union and single market and sealing our borders.

Most of the debates were based around doing free trade deals and stopping free movement of people.

The only people I have heard claiming they did not realise that we wanted to do trade deals and stop free movement of people are those that voted remain and hate democracy.
Report n88uk April 2, 2019 3:27 PM BST
Norway model is leaving, why are you saying they aren't for it then.
Report Pleasegivemeanailedontip April 2, 2019 3:32 PM BST
Ive said above, norway is remaining not leaving
Report n88uk April 2, 2019 3:33 PM BST
Oh so leave doesn't mean leave after all then, it means what you want it to mean.
Report InsiderTrader April 2, 2019 3:34 PM BST
Norway model is not taking back control of laws, borders, money and being to do our own trade deals. There Norway is not leaving the EU.
Report n88uk April 2, 2019 3:34 PM BST
Now leavers seems to know what leave entails they don't seem to be for the options that are on the table.
Report Pleasegivemeanailedontip April 2, 2019 3:35 PM BST
It means what it always meant

It doesnt mean what you want to conflate with leave
Report n88uk April 2, 2019 3:36 PM BST
So in other words the referendum was flawed as leave could mean whatever you wished, which in most cases didn't actually exist. Hence now why you know what leave is it should go back to the people in its proper form.
Report salmon spray April 2, 2019 3:41 PM BST
No use arguing with fanatics n88uk.
The fact that 48% of those who voted,voted to remain as we are and not for the Norway model seems to be beyond their powers of deduction.
Report InsiderTrader April 2, 2019 3:44 PM BST
n88uk
02 Apr 19 15:34
Joined: 26 May 12
| Topic/replies: 173,313 | Blogger: n88uk's blog
Now leavers seems to know what leave entails they don't seem to be for the options that are on the table.


^

There are two leave options...

1. Leave with no fixed deal and negotiate from there a free trade deal.
2. Leave with a free trade deal.

Both of those allow us to take back control of our trade deals, laws, borders and money.

It is very very simple.
Report yajyaj April 2, 2019 3:45 PM BST
Sorry Salmon I'm confused, you voted leave thinking we were going to stay in the customs union ?
Report Pleasegivemeanailedontip April 2, 2019 3:46 PM BST
Boles and Clarke are both remainers and promoting the common market.

Honestly if you wanted norway before the referendum, you would have voted to leave, despite everything Cameron and Osbourne said? Doubt it.
Report salmon spray April 2, 2019 4:20 PM BST
I didn't actually vote as I was on holiday and my postal vote didn't arrive in time. My problem with the EU has always been political as I think it is profoundly undemocratic. I certainly wasn't intending to vote for the mess we have got. And I feel we were misled by some politicians ( Fox's easiest deal in history or whatever £350 million a day for the NHS etc etc ).
Report yajyaj April 2, 2019 4:34 PM BST
Ohh ok, I am certainly no fanatic about Brexit, however I am passionate about democracy, you'll get no bs from me, In my view Parliament couldn't decide so put it to the people, the people decided and many in parliament are now welching on the deal having being elected on a leave platform, we cannot allow this, please come back and once again embrace the sunny lands Happy
Report yajyaj April 2, 2019 4:36 PM BST
Nearly forgot, the £350m was only ever a suggestion and I think most people know that
Report donny osmond April 2, 2019 4:48 PM BST
i thought the 350 was a democratic right
Report lord skywalker April 2, 2019 5:28 PM BST
it didnt actually say we would spend £350 m on the nhs, it said lets fund our nhs instead, two diffrent things, aas usual pepople take it the wrong way
Report lord skywalker April 2, 2019 5:29 PM BST
so in many ways it was true and not a lie
Report donny osmond April 2, 2019 5:51 PM BST
but we are now 350 short per week

and havnt left yet

nobody could have known they meant it wasnt an extra 350, but
360 lost before we even left
Report yajyaj April 2, 2019 8:25 PM BST
I believe Donny's quoting those GS fantasy numbers again Happy
Report yajyaj April 3, 2019 5:31 PM BST
No indicative votes Monday 310 v 310 , speaker says no Grin
Report yajyaj April 3, 2019 5:34 PM BST
Last time there was a draw was an amendment to the Maastricht Treaty Happy
Report donny osmond April 3, 2019 5:43 PM BST
old woman just wandered in wearing red coat!

whats going on?
Report yajyaj April 3, 2019 5:51 PM BST
Laugh
Report yajyaj April 3, 2019 5:55 PM BST
cooper amendment for some time tonight wins 312 v 311 ffs
Report scandanavian_haven April 3, 2019 6:00 PM BST
Last time there was a draw was an amendment to the Maastricht Treaty


that was an error corrected the next day for a majority, last real time there was a draw was 1980.
Report yajyaj April 3, 2019 6:13 PM BST
cheers, hopefully the speaker reads this and corrects them all later, I cant find that, what happened for it to take 24 hours for correction ?
Report n88uk April 3, 2019 6:35 PM BST
These obviously weren't deemed that important as looking at the abstentions certain people clearly weren't present and ayes would have won both if they had been.
Report SontaranStratagem April 3, 2019 6:36 PM BST
Looks as though Corbyn is going to do a U Turn now Crazy
Report yajyaj April 3, 2019 6:51 PM BST
"There wasn't as much change as expected", wonder what he was expecting !!
Report yajyaj April 3, 2019 7:06 PM BST
It appears he wasn't aware the withdrawal agreement couldn't be changed Whoops, should have watched sky news, its had that running along the bottom of the screen for most of the day
Report n88uk April 3, 2019 7:10 PM BST
It was always an obvious trap that was heading nowhere. The whole want it over by the weekend revealed that.

You really believe that Corbyn could get meaningful changes put on the PD, agreed by the EU, made legally binding on any future PM, and the deal voted on by Friday. Of course not, it's just so May can pass some blame on to Corbyn when this inevitably fails.
Report SontaranStratagem April 3, 2019 8:59 PM BST
Corbyn just needs to sit there and do nothing

We know who's to blame, and if Corbyn sits pretty he's in number 10 at the GE

Not exactly rocket science
Report yajyaj April 3, 2019 9:15 PM BST
You really believe that Corbyn could get meaningful changes, I dont, he's talking like he did
Report lord skywalker April 3, 2019 10:23 PM BST
may has a good deal, it was never gonna be perfect but we should leave with it, its the majority of mps who simply wont leave or at the very least they want to be tied to the eu in some way like single market or customs union, they voted to put article 50 in place and the vote was leave by over a million votes, if i was PM i would simply say its my deal or no deal, take it or leave it, all these remainers that think the united kingdom is gonna crash into oblivion if we dont have a deal, cmon we survived before 1973 and will do again.
Report n88uk April 4, 2019 12:13 AM BST
May's deal is absolute garbage. You are tied in the EU until you find a solution and agree to their terms. A rule taker with no say. Your negotiating position would be non-existent, the EU can just say take this, you either take it or say no and stay stuck in limbo forever. The Brexiteers know this, the only ones who think otherwise are those being naive enough to think you will find a way out of the backstop.

And the world is a very different place than it was in 1973, the reason the country joined what eventually become the EU in the first place was it was being left behind economically by the countries that had formed it.
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