Second referendum

Cameron is no longer the PM.

You are correct, mind you the current PM has said exactly the same thing.

Did she definitively say it in those terms, maybe she did, but tbh what May says doesn't mean a lot, she also definitely ruled out calling a general election yet did it. Tbh I just think May does whatever she thinks will allow her to stay in power the longest, so wouldn't surprise me if she made a u-turn on this too, at some point soon, she's going to have change tact. She's pretty much ruled out no deal continually, so hard to see her being the PM who would go through with that, but how she plans to get her deal through parliament I have no idea, something will have to change to break the parliamentary deadlock, can't see them calling a general election which is one way, so you have few options left on the table.

Also despite her bluster in parliament tonight after losing the vote it seems she isn't going to seek much change on her deal at all. They are saying things like a customs union is non-negotiable, so I have no idea how she expects cross-party negotiations to be successful, again likely just a front to make out like she's open to change when she isn't, but how she could pass anything without significant cross-party support seems unlikely.

The conspiracy between remainers, either here or in the EU, to frustrate the will of the British people is now reaching checkmate against the naïve UK voters who actually believed that the evil empire would ever let us leave. The call for a people's vote or a second referendum ( which is a term that the remainers never us of course) only ever allows 2 choices, both equally bad. May's deal which nobody seems to want or remain (but don't tell the public what terms remaining would entail) As soon as anyone suggests that leave is on the ballot they say no. Nigel summed it up yesterday. They will never offer a no deal Brexit choice in a referendum again. So Brexit is lost. Very sad.

If anything the situation is even more frustrating than it was before last night.

With May, who is completely inflexible, at the helm, then nothing will move forward. Clearly she is the main obstacle to any progress and she should have gone. Shame on the more moderate members of the Cabinet for not advising her of that obvious course of action. There are far too many nodding donkeys like Liz Truss.

It is bonkers to think you can turn around a 230 loss. The deal is dead to anyone bar a deluded Prime Minster and the hangers on.

Labour will inevitably lose the vote today and then we will start another period of essentially wasting time with the Prime Minister continuing to threaten a no deal.

Other than another intervention from the Speaker this is going nowhere.

Of course May's efforts to waste more time are actually being helped/supported by the failure of Corbyn and his cronies to back a second vote and instead waffling (that is all it is) about the 'deal' they want which everyone knows is never going to happen. Effectively, we have relatively small numbers on both frontbenches preventing any progress at all.

Marvellous

Cameron also said in the houses of commons that he wouldnt resign if he lost the 2016 referendum.

Can a new referendum be organised before March 29th? I doubt it. So they would first need to pass an act of Parliament to extend Article 50 and it is far from certain that it would pass or be accepted by Brussels. They then need to pass another act of Parliament to organise a second referendum with the wording of the question made clear. Those in favour of the referendum would of course refuse to have leave with no deal as an option, and as there is no majority for any soft Brexit option, that only leaves Remain. Remainers are very good at chess and have won. How many of them will get re-elected in the next election remains to be seen.

We have been told by two consecutive Tory Prime Ministers that the choice we made would be respected.

Mrs May understands, as she once again told us last night, that any other course of action is unthinkable. And given that ultimately the LOTO is a committed Brexiteer, I'd say the game is all but up for those who would ignore the clear decision of the People, even though they seem to be doing a great job of convincing themselves otherwise.

Politicians lie. All the time. Get over it. Read some history. Try to learn from it.

This Brexit business is a marvel. Genuinely. It’s borderline miraculous. Bear with me.

As a culture, we focus on those finely balanced moments when, against all odds, the stars align perfectly and great things are achieved. You know, Miracle on the Hudson type stuff.

We tend to ignore those equally rare moments when it goes completely the other way and events and people conspire perfectly to turn everything to utter sh!t.

The conspiracy of circumstances that has led us to this moment is just so wildly improbable, you could probably live multiple lifetimes and never see something like it again. It’s a unicorn riding through a blue moon on Halley’s comet.

The whole show is kicked off by a Conservative PM doing what Conservative PMs never do - take wild gambles. Clue is in the title.

Followed by an exercise in direct democracy, which we hardly ever do, in which a nation collectively overcomes the insanely powerful status quo bias to vote leave.

With a technically decisive margin of victory that is just small enough to be psychologically and emotionally anything but decisive.

The person chosen to implement the deal didn’t actually vote for it. Instead, we get a deeply weird politician whose truncated imagination is only matched by her utter intransigence. When history called for a great conciliator it gave us Theresa May.

Who then did what, until recently, Conservative PMs never do - took a wild gamble and threw away her majority, placing the whole nation in hock to the most reactionary, one-eyed, uncompromising headbangers in British politics, the DUP.

Which simultaneously created an intractable problem over the Irish border that a British govt with a healthy majority would have breezed past, in that typically high-handed and dismissive way the English have always dealt with the Irish. I’m not saying this is a good thing.

Meanwhile, across the chamber you have Corbyn, a leader of the opposition who refuses to lead the opposition, but can’t be removed because last time they tried they botched it so badly, they basically made him leader for life.

As all this unfolds, the EU plays its hand with the same uncompromising, dead-eyed rigidity that helped precipitate Brexit in the first place. A classic and unequal clash of homegrown pragmatism and continental ideology. There’s a reason we don’t do written constitutions.

As a sidebar, this simultaneously delegitimises any and all valid criticism of the EU, kicking any chance of desperately needed reform into the longest of long grass. Don’t worry, I’m sure this won’t come back to haunt us.

So an isolated rump govt negotiates a deal that cannot pass and cannot be renegotiated, in the knowledge that they cannot be replaced because the only thing worse than the current calamity is Corbyn as PM

And with Parliament almost perfectly deadlocked, we’ve blundered into a situation where we’re barrelling towards a choice between civil war, economic disaster and all points in between

The upshot is that we have with two party leaders who command nobody’s confidence but can’t be removed, fighting over a deal that nobody wants but has to be made, against a deadline that nobody can meet but everyone is insisting upon. Like I said, it’s a bloody marvel.

Perfectly viable and prudent to have a PeoplesVote on the concrete choice facing the country: Leave/Remain.

Leave might win.

Leave most certainly would win, but that is not the point as you are very well aware.

The point is this: We live in a democracy, and at the very moment you tell people that their clearly expressed decision is null and void because it doesn't suit the agenda of those paid to represent them then you are opening a very dangerous box indeed. As I have said before, Mrs May does at least appear to understand this, even if you fail to.

You were sure - you may not remember but I do - that we would not vote to leave.

You are sure - clearly - that we will not actually leave.

And you are equally sure I believe that Remain would win a Second Referendum.

It's a shame we will never see if your opinion on the final point holds true.

What do you mean “dangerous box”?
Is your side taking to the mattresses, jed?

Your flippancy does you no credit UB. The point I made there is the single most important factor in this whole sorry business.

We HAVE to leave the European Union. The consequences of not leaving far outweigh any of your imaginary consequences of us leaving.

And PorP, it is you who need to learn from History my friend. It shows you that even the most supine people have their tipping point.

One of the unfortunate developments of Brexit has been the readiness of LEAVE spokespeople to infantilise Leave voters as low-information, anger-filled inarticulate tyrants liable to sulk (never vote again) or get fist-happy (public violence) if they are disappointed. I don’t buy it. The worst of all reasons not to put it back to the people is because of threat of discord. The word for that is cowardice.

Don’t presume on the good nature of Brexiteers thanks ub
It’s bad manners

But, hey, jed, you’re a good soldier. One day you might have to cook for twenty people. See? We’re having meatballs.

I don't cook all that often but I'm sure I will be able to make myself useful in other ways when the time comes. There is no nobler fight than against tyranny.

Someone want to open a book.

Who's going to be the first to make jed cry today? He's got form and it looks like  his eyes are starting to redeem again.

And I agree with you about the infantilisation of Leave voters, although your point is somewhat diminished by the fact that it was exactly that phenomenon which cost you the vote in the first place. Leave voters cast as racists, imbeciles, uneducated.

You're not going to make me cry PorP - although I do find your stupidity quite frustrating.

One of the reasons, jed. But then to govern the country on that basis? That's madness.

No you're right. The best way to govern a country is to offer the people a plebiscite and then hold another one when you don't get the outcome you require. Silly me.

Look on the advisory 2016 referendum as a door to the binding FinalSay of 2019.
All prominent campaigners for the coming vote have said that our side would accept the result if the country decides by a majority of one to Leave, on the concrete choice before the country, which is simply Leave/Remain.

^ don’t believe them

all the time that is wasted calling for another referendum just helps run the clock down, ub you are playing into the hands of the erg. there are just two options mrs may's very poor deal or leaving without a deal. common sense dictates that we should get behind mrs may's deal and then, during the transitional phase when the real negotiations take place, hope our leaders are better able to get a good deal (eea/efta).

It’s very simple remainers have form , they can’t be trusted

don’t forget also they are merely delaying the inevitable ( and it takes a good part of a year to hold a referendum , maybe longer )
And then of course the remainers would accept the result so we would be no further on

* sorry would not accept the result
as jollyswagman says everyone in the country that respects democracy can see that Mays deal or no deal are the options

I reject that analysis, jollyswagman, because the ERG intend to renege on any deal the day after Brexit once May is gone. The PM has no political capital. Effectively there is no difference between her deal and no deal. And once the "new" Govt default on the country's obligations, there could be no return to the EU. That's the point of welshing on the agreed £39b, saving the money is not as significant as cementing the exit.

Any British prime minister , Tory or labour can renege on any deal at any time they wish
That’s democracy

No trade deal or any other deal is set in stone
We might pay the 39 billion we might not  , good

That's Trumpworld. This country used to have a honourable reputation.

any deal will be legally binding, the eu arent stupid. going back on a deal would see us in the international courts and we would be a pariah, even the erg arent so dumb as to do something like that. its incredibly ill-informed to say her deal is the same as no deal, that is just another example of you refusing to accept the vote and where we are today.

People like biscuits want to lock Britain into rules and deals and regulations that we can’t have the power to renege on
That’s very dangerous

There is no deal , legally binding or not that can’t be reneged on by Britain
That is the case with every country , it must be , we will have to worry about them
So they can worry about us

English law is what the English Parliament says is the law

you are on fire sven

I can assure you that is the case in France , and Russia and China and Africa and America
Make sure it remains the case in England

I trying to burn myself out jollyswagman , might just make it to Brexit day : )

The ERG have said they would welsh on the bill, many times, using the House Of Lords Committee advice as a legal fig-leaf. Of course it would end up in international courts and make the UK a pariah. The ideology of Brexit is to set up the UK as a pirate island off Europe. It stands as an adversary to the EU. It is funded by disaster-capitalists.

The one way May's deal can get through is if she promises the ERG to stand aside the day after Brexit for a "new" hardline Govt to tear up her deal. That's a 160 swing there, the DUP will fall into line, a few more Labour switchers and it happens.

Then I can retreat into my own little plot of land , and maybe look in now and again
And think  , is that how I spoke

they want to leave without a deal and so pay nothing that is quite different from leaving with a deal and then reneging on the deal.

Amazing how many people still think no deal will happen. Then again no surprise as I guess people were being conned from day 1. They have already told business in private no deal won't happen.

How would leaving without a deal discharge the UK from paying £39b, an amount agreed in lieu of responsibilities and obligations to the EU?

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-can-we-avoid-paying-the-39...

There are only two reasons for voting against Mays deal

1. You want a hard Brexit - honourable

2.  You want to remain in the EU - dishonourable

That is how things are now after the referendum

Look around at those who want to overthrow the referendum result
don’t forget them or forgive
Regardless of whether we leave , or don’t

We will know who they were lfc.

I certainly want to see the referendum result overthrown. The more candid and aware Leavers, such as jed.davison, want to see the EU destroyed.
Brexit makes no sense unless it sets up the UK in opposition to the EU and divides Europe. The only real choice now is:
1. Leave
2. Remain

That was the same choice as was presented to us on June 23rd 2016. We voted to leave. And that is that.

It's like Leavers are presenting a scientific paper on an experiment that worked once but they are scared to repeat.

It's like Tottenham scoring first against Barcelona, leaving the pitch and saying they won.

Should ideas not be tested?
Or do we head down the road to fundamentalism, creationism, dogma?

Jacob Rees-Mogg said there should be a second ref.

The 2nd ref absolutely shouldn't be leave vs remain. It needs to be whatever the leavers decide leave means, if they can ever work it out among themselves vs remain. So something like May's deal vs remain. Leave vs remain is just making the same mistake, and will lead to the same issues. Even now you've got the ERG fantasists calling for things that don't exist, so they will do the same in another referendum if you don't showcase they're not available.

Fantastists calling for things that don't exist - there's a lot of that on here.

Yes, that is a good point n88uk.

Fantastists calling for things that don't exist - there's a lot of that on here.

The main thing that doesn't exist is Brexit.
There could be a lot of acrimony later #gethepopcornin

n88 , there is never going to be a referendum in which the option is to remain completely in
You had that chance and lost

There should be no new referendum
But if there is then the options are Mays deal or no deal

The hide of these muppets is extraordinary lfc, you're better off just leaving them to it.

they don’t seem to realise jed that we are never going fully back into the EU , that’s impossible now

They still have their fantasies lfc, and they seem to enjoy them.

We are in the EU. We can remain on the same terms. If the UK became so incoherent that we could not argue our corner, we could always leave. What we cannot do is leave then return to the EU after trying to f**k it up.

calm down biscuits

Britain could return any time it chooses dont worry about that

Not that we will want to, and if we leave it more than five years there will be no EU for us to rejoin, at least in anything like its current form.

The EU will make it very very easy for the U.K. to return
At any time whatsoever

Joining is not the problem , look at some of the countries in the EU , it’s getting out that’s the problem

Jan 17, 2019 -- 6:00PM, lfc1971 wrote:

n88 , there is never going to be a referendum in which the option is to remain completely inYou had that chance and lost

So you are advocating we stay in without a referendum then, good to see you coming around.

have to go for tea

Readers may be reassured by lfc1971 's claim.
As a matter of record, is this the same lfc1971 who claims that the UK has been in recession for ten years?

Lfc also claims he voted leave to get out from under the rule of the ECJ yet supports May's deal, so I wouldn't take what he says too seriously.

Nobody would, but they'd take it more seriously than any of the utter fantasist bilge that you write.

Many people have simply blocked lfc1971, mostly for incoherence and self-contradiction.

I find him entertaining tbh, makes a change from people starting hundreds of threads on the same subject and not typing a word of sense on a single one of them.

Yes, I did it yesterday and you have no idea how quickly it speeds things up.

Why not scroll down the hours when lfc1971 is talking to himself and rejoin the thread later.
He's harmless.

One fewer person for you to misunderstand and misquote pp.

I don't think anyone understands lfc. Not even himself.

We have had a general election since the referendum and MPs who stood on a leave EU won a massive majority.


Just respect the EU referendum result & get on with leaving.

This deal is a fairly soft Brexit so can understand why the Leave campaign MPs don't like it.

Parliament voted to leave

hope this helps

We need to check that the majority of the voters are, despite all evidence, still ok with Brexit.

We don't know, it could go either way.

No need to check every year broken.

Every 30-40 years is more appropriate.
We have had 2 votes in past 3 years.

Time to get on with it.


Unfortunately our MPs will break their promise & keep UK inside the European Empire.

The deal on the table isn't really soft Brexit at all. Soft Brexit is what Labour want.

Parliament voted to leave as moisok said, they started article 50 rolling, wasnt it may that said no deal is better than a bad deal, anyone would think that it was Parliament who soley voted in 2016 the way they carry on, the trouble is 75% of mp's voted remain and mostly wouldnt touch any kind of leave deal, the process has been frustrated from day one starting with gina miller and labour make it sound like that they will respect the vote when in fact they wont (access to single market and a customs union) scotland wont accept it either we voted to remain, london wont accept it we voted remain, get a grip we voted leave overall, its no deal or mays deal as  i see it.

Parliament voted to leave as moisok said, they started article 50 rolling, wasnt it may that said no deal is better than a bad deal, anyone would think that it was Parliament who soley voted in 2016 the way they carry on, the trouble is 75% of mp's voted remain and mostly wouldnt touch any kind of leave deal, the process has been frustrated from day one starting with gina miller and labour make it sound like that they will respect the vote when in fact they wont (access to single market and a customs union) scotland wont accept it either we voted to remain, london wont accept it we voted remain, get a grip we voted leave overall, its no deal or mays deal as  i see it.

Parliament voted to leave as moisok said, they started article 50 rolling, wasnt it may that said no deal is better than a bad deal, anyone would think that it was Parliament who soley voted in 2016 the way they carry on, the trouble is 75% of mp's voted remain and mostly wouldnt touch any kind of leave deal, the process has been frustrated from day one starting with gina miller and labour make it sound like that they will respect the vote when in fact they wont (access to single market and a customs union) scotland wont accept it either we voted to remain, london wont accept it we voted remain, get a grip we voted leave overall, its no deal or mays deal as  i see it.

i didnt mean to repeat it 3 times, it wouldnt go thru

It appears Mays deal is dead. We move on to the next stage which will probably be Mays deal 2.

2 1/2 years ago:

17m voted for the term 'Leave' - now there are many political figures and partisan commentators that claim they know exactly what they all meant by their vote. That is unrealistic and frankly untrue.

16m . voted to remain - No one questions what they wanted because it is pretty clear.

Polls now indicate that Leave voters (to a much lesser extent, remain) themselves are split in what they want and it beggars belief that those from the political fringes still claim they know what it is Leavers want, as if they are one body.

We are in a shocking mess and all roads lead to disharmony. I have not been comfortable or sure if it is right to call for another vote on brexit but it is hard to see another way through all this. At the very least it gives the matter to the public on what the options actually are not what was said or promised in 2015.
Not ideal but we are where we are.

17m people voted "for the term 'Leave'", did they? I can tell you, even though I shouldn't really have to, exactly what they voted for: they voted to leave the European Union.

When they voted, the vast majority of people - imo of course - did not give much further thought to their choice, and nor was that necessary given the binary nature of the question posed.

They had been told, in a national address by the Prime Minister, that their decision would be final and irrevocable. They had also been bombarded by prognoses of doom from all sections of the media in the event of a Leave vote, and had of course been the recipient of the infamous £9m Cassandra pamphlet sent to every address in the UK.

So it's pretty clear, despite your protestations to the contrary, that those who voted Leave knew exactly what they were doing - in the face of Government and Media advice and warnings, the largest ever number of Britons voted for the same thing - to leave the European Union.

You are right, we are in a shocking mess. We are in a shocking mess because since the 24th June 2016, the campaign to overturn, annul or reverse the Referendum result - a campaign conducted entirely by the forces defeated on the 23rd June 2016 - has been in overdrive. Our Civil Service, our contemptible Parliament, the major part of our written and broadcast Media - all have combined forces to deny democracy.

The same attitude - unfortunately - prevails now as before the Referendum among Remainers. Leave voters remain the same bigoted, insular and backward brigade they painted us then, and thus our opinions don't matter and should be resisted. The only difference now of course is what they thought of us then was immaterial - every Leave voter would have the same single vote as every Remain voter.

Then the unthinkable happened - it turned out there were more Leave voters than Remain voters. But their opinion of us did not change and so began nearly three years of machinations to prevent our simple wish being granted. It doesn't matter to them what constitutional outrages are required for their goal to be achieved, it doesn't matter that the things which alarmed Leave voters - further erosion of British sovereignty, all but unfettered immigration, the EU Army which was not even going to exist etc - will only be entrenched and advanced if we remain a part of the EU, further inflaming a resistance which they forget was already a majority in 2016.

As Germany dives into recession, Italy teeters and France burns - still they fiddle on. We have rejected further entanglement, but our opinion does not matter.

Brexit Bingo!!!

1. We knew exactly what we were voting for
2. Remain told us what would happen and despite the Leave campaign constantly telling us they were lying at every turn, it's now convenient to take those words as facts
3. The situation we're in now is all the fault of Remainers
4. If it's overturned there'll be trouble on the streets
5. The EU is going down the pan and we're getting out just in time.



To be fair, it's nice to just have all these unoriginal echo chamber-generated concepts put in one post and not spread across the whole forum like some kind of diarrohea stricken Jack Russell.

Feel free to argue with any or all of those points, or alternatively you can just carry on amusing yourself contributing nothing as usual except your self-satisfied attempts at humour.