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Cameron was quite clear before the vote on BREXIT that if we voted to leave there would be NO second referendum:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXg7iIVuvEM
Looks as if certain people have forgotten this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXg7iIVuvEM
Looks as if certain people have forgotten this.
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Cameron is no longer the PM.
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You are correct, mind you the current PM has said exactly the same thing.
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Did she definitively say it in those terms, maybe she did, but tbh what May says doesn't mean a lot, she also definitely ruled out calling a general election yet did it. Tbh I just think May does whatever she thinks will allow her to stay in power the longest, so wouldn't surprise me if she made a u-turn on this too, at some point soon, she's going to have change tact. She's pretty much ruled out no deal continually, so hard to see her being the PM who would go through with that, but how she plans to get her deal through parliament I have no idea, something will have to change to break the parliamentary deadlock, can't see them calling a general election which is one way, so you have few options left on the table.
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Also despite her bluster in parliament tonight after losing the vote it seems she isn't going to seek much change on her deal at all. They are saying things like a customs union is non-negotiable, so I have no idea how she expects cross-party negotiations to be successful, again likely just a front to make out like she's open to change when she isn't, but how she could pass anything without significant cross-party support seems unlikely.
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The conspiracy between remainers, either here or in the EU, to frustrate the will of the British people is now reaching checkmate against the naïve UK voters who actually believed that the evil empire would ever let us leave. The call for a people's vote or a second referendum ( which is a term that the remainers never us of course) only ever allows 2 choices, both equally bad. May's deal which nobody seems to want or remain (but don't tell the public what terms remaining would entail) As soon as anyone suggests that leave is on the ballot they say no. Nigel summed it up yesterday. They will never offer a no deal Brexit choice in a referendum again. So Brexit is lost. Very sad.
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If anything the situation is even more frustrating than it was before last night.
With May, who is completely inflexible, at the helm, then nothing will move forward. Clearly she is the main obstacle to any progress and she should have gone. Shame on the more moderate members of the Cabinet for not advising her of that obvious course of action. There are far too many nodding donkeys like Liz Truss. It is bonkers to think you can turn around a 230 loss. The deal is dead to anyone bar a deluded Prime Minster and the hangers on. Labour will inevitably lose the vote today and then we will start another period of essentially wasting time with the Prime Minister continuing to threaten a no deal. Other than another intervention from the Speaker this is going nowhere. Of course May's efforts to waste more time are actually being helped/supported by the failure of Corbyn and his cronies to back a second vote and instead waffling (that is all it is) about the 'deal' they want which everyone knows is never going to happen. Effectively, we have relatively small numbers on both frontbenches preventing any progress at all. |
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Marvellous
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Cameron also said in the houses of commons that he wouldnt resign if he lost the 2016 referendum.
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Can a new referendum be organised before March 29th? I doubt it. So they would first need to pass an act of Parliament to extend Article 50 and it is far from certain that it would pass or be accepted by Brussels. They then need to pass another act of Parliament to organise a second referendum with the wording of the question made clear. Those in favour of the referendum would of course refuse to have leave with no deal as an option, and as there is no majority for any soft Brexit option, that only leaves Remain. Remainers are very good at chess and have won. How many of them will get re-elected in the next election remains to be seen.
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We have been told by two consecutive Tory Prime Ministers that the choice we made would be respected.
Mrs May understands, as she once again told us last night, that any other course of action is unthinkable. And given that ultimately the LOTO is a committed Brexiteer, I'd say the game is all but up for those who would ignore the clear decision of the People, even though they seem to be doing a great job of convincing themselves otherwise. |
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Politicians lie. All the time. Get over it. Read some history. Try to learn from it.
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This Brexit business is a marvel. Genuinely. It’s borderline miraculous. Bear with me.
As a culture, we focus on those finely balanced moments when, against all odds, the stars align perfectly and great things are achieved. You know, Miracle on the Hudson type stuff. We tend to ignore those equally rare moments when it goes completely the other way and events and people conspire perfectly to turn everything to utter sh!t. The conspiracy of circumstances that has led us to this moment is just so wildly improbable, you could probably live multiple lifetimes and never see something like it again. It’s a unicorn riding through a blue moon on Halley’s comet. The whole show is kicked off by a Conservative PM doing what Conservative PMs never do - take wild gambles. Clue is in the title. Followed by an exercise in direct democracy, which we hardly ever do, in which a nation collectively overcomes the insanely powerful status quo bias to vote leave. With a technically decisive margin of victory that is just small enough to be psychologically and emotionally anything but decisive. The person chosen to implement the deal didn’t actually vote for it. Instead, we get a deeply weird politician whose truncated imagination is only matched by her utter intransigence. When history called for a great conciliator it gave us Theresa May. Who then did what, until recently, Conservative PMs never do - took a wild gamble and threw away her majority, placing the whole nation in hock to the most reactionary, one-eyed, uncompromising headbangers in British politics, the DUP. Which simultaneously created an intractable problem over the Irish border that a British govt with a healthy majority would have breezed past, in that typically high-handed and dismissive way the English have always dealt with the Irish. I’m not saying this is a good thing. Meanwhile, across the chamber you have Corbyn, a leader of the opposition who refuses to lead the opposition, but can’t be removed because last time they tried they botched it so badly, they basically made him leader for life. As all this unfolds, the EU plays its hand with the same uncompromising, dead-eyed rigidity that helped precipitate Brexit in the first place. A classic and unequal clash of homegrown pragmatism and continental ideology. There’s a reason we don’t do written constitutions. As a sidebar, this simultaneously delegitimises any and all valid criticism of the EU, kicking any chance of desperately needed reform into the longest of long grass. Don’t worry, I’m sure this won’t come back to haunt us. So an isolated rump govt negotiates a deal that cannot pass and cannot be renegotiated, in the knowledge that they cannot be replaced because the only thing worse than the current calamity is Corbyn as PM And with Parliament almost perfectly deadlocked, we’ve blundered into a situation where we’re barrelling towards a choice between civil war, economic disaster and all points in between The upshot is that we have with two party leaders who command nobody’s confidence but can’t be removed, fighting over a deal that nobody wants but has to be made, against a deadline that nobody can meet but everyone is insisting upon. Like I said, it’s a bloody marvel. |
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Perfectly viable and prudent to have a PeoplesVote on the concrete choice facing the country: Leave/Remain.
Leave might win. |
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Leave most certainly would win, but that is not the point as you are very well aware.
The point is this: We live in a democracy, and at the very moment you tell people that their clearly expressed decision is null and void because it doesn't suit the agenda of those paid to represent them then you are opening a very dangerous box indeed. As I have said before, Mrs May does at least appear to understand this, even if you fail to. |
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You were sure - you may not remember but I do - that we would not vote to leave.
You are sure - clearly - that we will not actually leave. And you are equally sure I believe that Remain would win a Second Referendum. It's a shame we will never see if your opinion on the final point holds true. |
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What do you mean “dangerous box”?
Is your side taking to the mattresses, jed? |
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Your flippancy does you no credit UB. The point I made there is the single most important factor in this whole sorry business.
We HAVE to leave the European Union. The consequences of not leaving far outweigh any of your imaginary consequences of us leaving. |
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And PorP, it is you who need to learn from History my friend. It shows you that even the most supine people have their tipping point.
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One of the unfortunate developments of Brexit has been the readiness of LEAVE spokespeople to infantilise Leave voters as low-information, anger-filled inarticulate tyrants liable to sulk (never vote again) or get fist-happy (public violence) if they are disappointed. I don’t buy it. The worst of all reasons not to put it back to the people is because of threat of discord. The word for that is cowardice.
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Don’t presume on the good nature of Brexiteers thanks ub
It’s bad manners |
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But, hey, jed, you’re a good soldier. One day you might have to cook for twenty people. See? We’re having meatballs.
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I don't cook all that often but I'm sure I will be able to make myself useful in other ways when the time comes. There is no nobler fight than against tyranny.
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Someone want to open a book.
Who's going to be the first to make jed cry today? He's got form and it looks like his eyes are starting to redeem again. |
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And I agree with you about the infantilisation of Leave voters, although your point is somewhat diminished by the fact that it was exactly that phenomenon which cost you the vote in the first place. Leave voters cast as racists, imbeciles, uneducated.
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You're not going to make me cry PorP - although I do find your stupidity quite frustrating.
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One of the reasons, jed. But then to govern the country on that basis? That's madness.
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No you're right. The best way to govern a country is to offer the people a plebiscite and then hold another one when you don't get the outcome you require. Silly me.
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Look on the advisory 2016 referendum as a door to the binding FinalSay of 2019.
All prominent campaigners for the coming vote have said that our side would accept the result if the country decides by a majority of one to Leave, on the concrete choice before the country, which is simply Leave/Remain. |
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^ don’t believe them
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all the time that is wasted calling for another referendum just helps run the clock down, ub you are playing into the hands of the erg. there are just two options mrs may's very poor deal or leaving without a deal. common sense dictates that we should get behind mrs may's deal and then, during the transitional phase when the real negotiations take place, hope our leaders are better able to get a good deal (eea/efta).
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It’s very simple remainers have form , they can’t be trusted
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don’t forget also they are merely delaying the inevitable ( and it takes a good part of a year to hold a referendum , maybe longer )
And then of course the remainers would accept the result so we would be no further on |
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* sorry would not accept the result
as jollyswagman says everyone in the country that respects democracy can see that Mays deal or no deal are the options |
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I reject that analysis, jollyswagman, because the ERG intend to renege on any deal the day after Brexit once May is gone. The PM has no political capital. Effectively there is no difference between her deal and no deal. And once the "new" Govt default on the country's obligations, there could be no return to the EU. That's the point of welshing on the agreed £39b, saving the money is not as significant as cementing the exit.
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Any British prime minister , Tory or labour can renege on any deal at any time they wish
That’s democracy |
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No trade deal or any other deal is set in stone
We might pay the 39 billion we might not , good |
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That's Trumpworld. This country used to have a honourable reputation.
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any deal will be legally binding, the eu arent stupid. going back on a deal would see us in the international courts and we would be a pariah, even the erg arent so dumb as to do something like that. its incredibly ill-informed to say her deal is the same as no deal, that is just another example of you refusing to accept the vote and where we are today.
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People like biscuits want to lock Britain into rules and deals and regulations that we can’t have the power to renege on
That’s very dangerous |