Socialist Labour MPs

Clive Efford MP for Eltham and Steve Rotheram the scouse MP for one of the Liverpool regions,i think its the pooorest area of the country.

given the staggering death-toll inflicted on humanity by devout socialists, i consider the lack of them to be a good thing. socialism has been a human and environmental disaster. i welcome any debate about this. i do not expect to get one.

and just to pre-empt your lame effort at justification by only including 'democratic socialists', the reality is that they start off mouthing these platitudes, but every socialist revolution has resulted in oppression and murder on a grand scale. instead of the usual abuse(fascist, etc) feel free to deny this. you will not, because you are in denial.

it is instructive that i have many times highlighted the love of so-called liberals for profoundly illiberal regimes. i have never been pulled up about it, but dismissed as 'right-wing', despite never having voiced any political opinion. maybe the truth is 'right-wing'?

steve rotheram indeed. he is well-meaning, but unrealistic. walton aint that poor. people assume that large numbers of benefit claimants =poor. it does not. the real poor people are the ones that that get up and go to work, for little money.

i know walton well. it has some big victorian houses, inhabited by claimants on hb who are skint(ie not much cash) but live in houses beyond the dreams of people who go to work(cant pay the rent, so live in bedsits).

the system is iniquitous(look it up) and breeds resentment among the poor buggers who work and those that see no reason to do so.

Groper,
Where've you been me old stalker?, it's taken you over an hour to pipe up with you're usual sh1te.

From Hardie through to Atlee, Bevan, Gaitskill, Cripps, Benn, Foot, Wilson, Callaghan, Crosland, et al tell us about the oppression and murder on a grand scale, please.

Bentley

Maybe there are no more socialists because the intelligent and rational came to realise that capitalism for all it's faults wiped the floor with socialism and made everybody better off. To the point that wooly liberals had to redefine what poverty meant because there was no longer any real poverty to talk about.

The real battle to be had is over what kind of capitalistic system we should have. Currently we have crony corporatism with dashes of muddle headed socialism thrown in. Not at all a good system.

EO,
[i]Maybe there are no more socialists because the intelligent and rational came to realise that capitalism for all it's faults wiped the floor with socialism and made everybody better off.[/i]

Well clearly the financial problems resulting from the meltdown in the banking system were a failure of Socialist ideology rather than capitalism, and the fact that poverty has been all but eliminated from the planet and everyone's better off is indeed a triumph for capitalism.
I'll have what you're drinking, ta.

exactly.i said socialism has been a disaster for humanity. would you like me to name a few, as you have?

lenin, stalin, trotsky, mao, kim-il sung and his heirs, ho chi minh, honecker, ulbricht, pol pot, hoxha, castro, causescu, zhivkov, tito. all wrote extensively about the necessity of socialism and their determination to put it into practice. didnt work out tooo well did it?. and they are just the ones off the top of me bonce. ive had too much sherbert.

interesting you name benn as a great socialist; he said mao was his political hero. thats right; the biggest mass-killer in history a hero of a socialist politician that you highlight as an exemplar. only goes to show what a **** you are. i can barely imagine the response to a tory politician who stuck up someone like franco(a pigmy in the murder stakes) as his hero.

and the idea that i would stalk a cretin like you.... yougorralaff.

Poor old Groper,
From Hardie through to Atlee, Bevan, Gaitskill, Cripps, Benn, Foot, Wilson, Callaghan, Crosland, et al tell us about the oppression and murder on a grand scale, please?

i can barely imagine the response to a tory politician who stuck up someone like franco(a pigmy in the murder stakes) as his hero.

Thatcher/Pinochet ring any bells?

Bentley

There are several linking explanations for the banking crisis but none of them arise from capitalism. Be it the bailing out of LTCM in 98 sending a green light that failures would have a safety net thrown beneath them (socialisation of the losses. Where have I heard that term before?). Through interference in the natural correcting of the markets following the dot com bust and low interest rates and cheap money flooding into all manner of malinvestments. Onto sub prime and liar loans whose genesis was political in origin.

How does any of that put capitalism in the dock? Failures should fail. First rule of capitalism.

Bentley

The British left didn't murder that much is true but they spent decades defending a system where tens of millions were murdered, starved or sent to reeducation camps. All the while cheered on by the loony left.

Who then had the temerity to talk about Pinochet as if there is any moral equivalence between someone like him and Stalin or Mao.

You can cut it any way you like but socialism is a ghost ship for a very good reason. Even the rats left it long ago.

There are several linking explanations for the banking crisis but none of them arise from capitalism.

Really, well I wouldn't put them down to socialism ,would you?

How does any of that put capitalism in the dock? Failures should fail. First rule of capitalism.

Tell us about all the right wing/capitalist Governments from the USA to Iceland that allowed capitalisms first rule to take it's course.

yet again you are selective in what you respond to and evade the point. unlike cowards like you, i answer every question, because i do not shrink from uncomfortable truths. never mind.

what are you saying? i said it was despicable the a socialist mp, benn (an example of a good socialist, highlighted by you) would declare a mass-murderer to be his political hero.

and what was the response from the left when benn declared his admiration for mao? silence. thatchers involvement with pinochet? howls of loathing, despite pinochet being a boy scout compared to the greatest murderer of all. but you ignore this, thereby proving my point. thank you. idiot.

Groper,
From Hardie through to Atlee, Bevan, Gaitskill, Cripps, Benn, Foot, Wilson, Callaghan, Crosland, et al tell us about the oppression and murder on a grand scale, please?

Still waiting, loony!

why does bender not admit that socialism has been a catastrophe? ive stated it quite boldy, he hasnt denied it. why not? nor does he deny its crimes. an indictment in itself, is it not? the best he can do is stick up ones he likes. pitiful.

eo, you have given him an excuse to engage in obfuscation, whic he will seize, because he is out of his depth, and knows it.

anyway, off to bed now, so you two bores can get on with your sixth-form 'debate'. and bender can abuse me in my absence, because it makes him feel better.

EO,
The British left didn't murder that much is true but they spent decades defending a system where tens of millions were murdered, starved or sent to reeducation camps. All the while cheered on by the loony left.

Who then had the temerity to talk about Pinochet as if there is any moral equivalence between someone like him and Stalin or Mao.

Thatcher and the Khmer Rouge anyone? Tell us about any Labour Prime Minister who ever openly supported a mass murdering thug? Was Ted Heath much favoured in Beijing and a regular guest and friend of Mao?

Poor old Bentley refuses to leave his time warp, I'm sure every night he goes at stands by the pit gate and has a little sob.

Attlee, Bevan, Foot, Wilson, you sound like those boring old duffers that used to catch the bus to the football with Stanley Matthews, it's all nostalgic bollox.

Bentley

Perhaps you can clarify where Thatcher expressed support for the thug Pol Pot?

Tell us about all the right wing/capitalist Governments from the USA to Iceland that allowed capitalisms first rule to take it's course.

It's a while ago now bentley but didn't Iceland allow it's major banks to fold and despite all the predictions of anarchy and death it is now doing quite alright?

rational came to realise that capitalism for all it's faults wiped the floor with socialism and made everybody better off

everybody??

A few are exceptionally better off.
Most middle managers, lower paid workers,  and small businessmen are paying the price.


The current corporate greed, selfishness, and short termism is not the solution.
The bloated public sector which keep the show on the road while the corporates rape us is no help either.


Smaller family run companies built the economy over a 100 year period; greedy spivs and their sycophantic political allies fkd. it in ten years.

I've said it for some time though that this is crony corporatism we are currently witnessing. Capitalism built. Corporatism arrived like a cuckoo in the nest to wreck it. We need to find a way to wrest back control from those who are bleeding us dry.

This corporationism IS CAPITALISM you blithering idiot.

Corporationism?

Dennis Skinner a real man of the people!! Still clinging to the seat he said he would give up at 65 as he didn't think it was right to block another workers job. Talk is cheap Dennis, and no doubt so is the subsidised H of C catering/drinks.

snickers,he has proved it,done a mans job and has the support of a working class community who love him

about the only one anywhere near what Labour should be  Dennis  - the rest are professional politicians - hardly any so called working people in the party now anyway - stuffed full of teachers, social workers and legal types.   they would fit better in the liberal party.

I'm sure your hero worship is entirely genuine Pandora, I actually think he is a rather sad comic figure these days but at least he is one of the few parliamentary characters left amongst the anodyne careerists. However, neither you nor dearly beloved Dennis can deny he lied about standing down at 65.

SO DID I

Gordon Brown,the WORST C of Ex in my lifetime.Totally clueless on monetary matters,a disaster from start to finish.
And no,I don't vote.

Jeremy Corbyn (Islington) is a true socialist, has always been opposed to New Labour and has been a Labour MP for over 30 years.

Skinner showing himself up again on the floor of the house yesterday. Surely someone in the party can see the guy is senile. Just seems to repeat the same nonsense regardless of the topic of debate.

Get him in a nice home with a blanket and a picture of Scargill.

When Dennis is taking cash for questions, flipping second homes to save Tax, taking out a mortgage he doesn';t need so he can charge it to the taxpayer,
putting his house in a trust fund, taking a "consultancy fee" off banks, outsourcers or private Health care  .,

I will be the first to condemn him; the Tories should worry about the plank in their own eye, before the speck in Skinner's.

I think we are holding Skinner to a higher standard than everyone else if we are going to be criticising him for relatively minor things like not retiring. Maybe he had a look at the self serving never done a days work in their lives trough snufflers and wondered if the next generation would be any more principled? He probably doubted it and he would have been right to do so.

dennis represents a bygone age of Labour - maybe not socialist but nearly there
now the traitors play on the name Labour and have nothing anywhere near anything socialist
just professional politiians

"When Dennis is taking cash for questions"

How much has he taken from the unions over the years? And how many of his interventions could be deemed to be favourable to their interests?

I think we are holding Skinner to a higher standard than everyone else if we are going to be criticising him for relatively minor things like not retiring

Wise words from eo.
Corruption in parliament, City scandal after City scandal and a back bencher's retirement age is a debating point.


Clive,

Since his constituentcy's main industry was mining and manufacturing,, asking questions that represent the interests of miners and factory workers is hardly a crime is it?

There was a time when MPs represented the interests of their constituents; not Private Health providers and devious financial institutions.

So you can take cash for influence from 3rd parties as long as you can link it to your constituency?

he has never took money to ask questions in his life,from the unions or anybody,you need to read up a little more on the  man Clive before venting your spleen

I have drifted away from Labour but it would be hard to criticise Skinner for many of the worst abuses these rats have been gulilty of. If only half of the Commons showed his integrity it would be  a better place. I would also like to see a few more conservatives preaching right wing policies too and explaining why instead of many of the smug placemen.

So why have the unions paid all that money if it was not to buy influence?

Clive

While I share your sentiment that unions just like businesses should not be allowed to buy influence from politicians, the fact is unions tend to represent the interests of thousands of taxpayers/voters not just a few owners.

So I can see why some MPs may decide to defend the interests of the larger group of workers and not the fewer capital owners.

The principle is the same though Boris surely? A special interest group is paying money to gain influence for their particular agenda, which in the case of the unions does not always chime with the wider public good. The classic example being Skinner's support for Scargill. Clearly Skinner was not acting in the interests of the country or even his own constituents who were denied a ballot and then attacked when choosing to return to work to support their families.

Yes the principle is the same it is just less heinous.

But as I already said earlier that is one of the reasons I believe political parties should be funded by the taxpayer based on the number of voters they can convince to support them.

I would have no problem if Farage/Galloway/Griffin's parties are able to convince more people to vote for them than the Libdems I see no reason for less popular parties to be allowed more funding and influence.

If we are to be a democracy, each vote should count the same and rich people/unions should not be allowed to buy influence by funding the parties.

clive,

There is surely a difference between taking cash for your personal benefit in return for asking specified questions, and Skinner's links with the NUM.
As far as Skinner is concerned I understood that during the miners strike he gave all his salary to miners; and for many years (it may still be his practice) he took the average skilled workers wage and gave the rest to miners.
His conduct seems poles apart from the "cash for questions" affairs.

In terms of expenses Skinners record is among the better.

Amicus have contributed to costs in the last two elections, but as Boris points out unless we have taxpayer funding that is our system.

Indeed that is our system, where special interest groups fund political parties. Those groups maybe single interest groups, corporations, individuals or unions. The principle for all is the same, and yet somehow there is this romantic vision of the unions as being somehow above the fray. They are not donating that money for nothing.

They are not donating that money for nothing.

Memories of Bernie Ecclestone.
"You don't give somebody a million pounds for nothing"

Have ANY of you read any British political history?

^er... i have. but cannot involve myself with this adolescent drivel. it is like a sixth-form debating society. can you improve on it?

The unions came about because of the strivers being exploited at every turn, only when strivers formed
the unions,in the face of widespread opposition, much from the members of THE LAW SOCIETY, the very
first union in history, THATCHER was a member of that union and still held the arcane beliefs that
lawyers did centuries before.
This stupid belief that there are those who are born to lead, with the rest told to follow that lead,
no matter how stupid that leader/s may be, much like todays COALITION OF THE INEPT AND DISHONEST!!!!!!

Part of the smoke and mirrors society we live in is the fact that whenever an election comes around,
the candidates proffer themselves as a desire to serve, but when in office the change in attitude is
totally opposite to their humble plea for votes, when will we waken up to their shenanigans?

[b"..]but cannot involve myself with this adolescent drivel"[/b]

He just felt the need to get involved and let all you adolescents know he's not getting involved!!

Thinly veiled I'm itching to get involved but have nothing meaningful to contribute post.

Never heard of the guilds bazza ? They operated a restricted entry hundreds of years ago just like most skilled unions. It always made me laugh how often the skilled unions behaved in such  snobby fashion when I worked in a factory, they relished the opportunity to look down on others, it must be the british psyche !

Attlee, Bevan, Foot, Wilson, you sound like those boring old duffers that used to catch the bus to the football with Stanley Matthews, it's all nostalgic bollox.

Some of those were relevant to my earlier life blackie; but

Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky though....catching a tram with  Willie "Fattie"  Foulke springs to mind.

Oh ffs here come smug,sanctimonioyus,pious patrnising ar sehole orioles with his holier than thou know it all stuff,YES MATE,A FEW OF US ON HERE HAVE STUDIED POLITICAL HISTORY,and probably know a damned sight more about it than you, stick to law or getting on your high horse on the chit chat forum you w anker

spelt a few words wrongly there that smug fcker winds me up big time

Those who claim Skinner is beyond criticism seem to have forgotten all the 'Beast of legover' headlines. When Dennis growls that he likes to f*ck the Tories he's not lying. Wasn't he found skulking around in the bushes in Chelsea waiting for his yank heiress who was a neighbour to the Duke of Portland to let him in.

There are far better men them him in the Commons.

You may be correct clive but I am struggling to identify many that I respect highly. David Davis who should have been tory leader might be one of them.

no there ain't clive sorry old chap - he is the genuine article - having met the old comrade and spoken with him on a very humorous occasion, I can confirm his attitude, directness and honesty regarding representation of his constituency.

There are far better men them him in the Commons.


Start with the quantifiables expenses, attendance, outside consultancies.


So he had another woman.  FFS grow up.Presumably Ann Widdicombe is the ideal MP then.
Do you want to criticise Boris as well?


I too have met Skinner, and confirm what moisok says.

Take your rose tinted specs off.. Is he above criticism?

You've met him and liked him (that's pretty much what MPs do) excuse me if I don't attribute too much weight to that.

He was very direct when he said he would give up his seat at 65, in fact he was trying to make a wider point about employment opportunities for the younger generation. He has also repeatedly sought to mock Conservative MPs for personal indiscretions whilst all the time carrying on his own sordid affair with his Chelsea fancy women.

He once revelled in the spotlight having called a government minister a 'slimy wart,' my own view is as a father of three his own conduct would make those descriptors equally as apt.

absolutely totally above any criticism whatsoever  he he

well compared to the rest in the pigsty I would say so

of course he is not perfect

his Chelsea fancy women.

Love that expression.

Whatever happened to carrying on or even worse clearing off, with his fancy piece.

he is not above criticism.
but in a profession with more than average amount of shysters, tax dodgers, expense fiddlers there are worthier targets.

If the "beast of legover" and references to his fancy woman are the worst criticism; either we are struggling or for objectivity should include Yeo, Boris etc.

I think I could manage more objective criticism of both without quoting tabloid headlines

What about SAINT TONY is he immune from pursuing fancy pieces or is he the architect of the imminant divorce proceedings
of his "friend" MURDOCH?

Skinner should consider retiring and giving a younger person a chance. Having said that,I read that more than 100 MP's are eligible for retirement pay and begin to wonder if we shouldn't be discriminating positively in favour of younger blood.

You righties are a right sorry bunch!

You try to make political capital out of the most trivial and ridiculous.

Dianne Abbott once, or even a couple of times, used the word 'white'.
Dennis Skinner said he'd retire & didn't. No doubt. Dennis fully intended to retire, but when the time came found there was only a selection of career minded young t****** to replace him. No doubt his constituency mail bag was full of plea's for him not to retire, all saying they did not want a career minded young  t***** to replace the Beast of Bolsover.  So Dennis  did the honourable thing and changed his mind purely in the interests of his constituents.

So Dennis  did the honourable thing and changed his mind purely in the interests of his constituents.

Purely for the interest of Dennis more like.

They are better served by Dennis than a "researcher" with rich parents.
Do you think  everybody acts solely out of self interest ?

the lying racist madlad who retired from the forum still spewing out his lies

still waiting for your explanation madlad

Purely for the interest of Dennis more like.

I'd venture that a clear majority of his constituents, not to mention Labour voters, not to mention a significant minority of right-wing and liberal voters who have a grudging respect for the man, don't want him to retire either.

The Labour Party and parliament in general has enough wanky little careerist pricks.

Is the Labour party devoid of any ability ? Skinner could be suffering from dementia and you lot would still vote for him. There comes a time when we all slow down and have to make way for new blood,the next election would be a good time for him to pass the baton to someone younger.

the labour party is full of tories

Perhaps the yare just full of centre left instead of outside lefts ?

Dennis is a closet Blairite. He plays to the gallery of luddites but he voted for David Miliband ffs!

Put him out to pasture before he crokes it on the floor of the house in the middle of one of his envy laced rants about Cameron or Osbourne.