Poker dying a slow death

You realise people play in live games don't you?

Its the same with any sport,losers get bored and stop playing.

live poker will remain as live as it is, maybe it will even grow.

but online poker is being killed by local country regulations, corrupted poker sites, online software (HM, PT, etc..) and cheaters. it all lead to a point where poker will get into regression

Was saying something very similar last week. Sit and Goes are a solved game with tables populated by bots and multitabling grinders playing break even poker purely for cake. Theres very little margin at stakes high enough to justify playing them.

MTT's have become aggressive to the point where you have to play deep stack slow blind structures for skill to be a factor and who wants to spend days on end sat in front of a laptop.

Chat at tables seems to becoming a real rarity where once it was commonplace.

Cash games are where people are making money but they arent particularly viewer friendly.

Agree with those saying live poker may still have some growth, its certainly more fun sat playing with real people and having real onversations.

Comments aren't aimed at live play,we're punters can have an enjoyable evening win or lose.  But punters aren't happy with no banter  ,playing
Bots,cheats and players who are far too good for them.  If the game was more interesting then people would last longer but the variety isn't,there
Compared to betting on sports.
Possible solutions , change the game to make luck much more of a factor and skill only a small factor,have software to stop tracker software,randomise seats, only have people of the same country playing each other,have e very one as anonymous, auto move tables every 5mins.
Anything that isn't good for bots,cheats or competent players is the way to go to get poker moving in a more positive direction, the only people
likely to complain are the3 mentioned, but there overwhelming presence is slowly but surely killing the game dead on line.

Reduce the skill factor ? Are you for real ? Theres already a million and one blackjack and roulette sites if you want to try your luck. Surely the attraction of poker is that if you put the effort in and learn the game you will make money, and if you keep putting the effort in you will keep making money ?

Getting rid of bots is a good idea, as is getting rid of software. Personally I'd get rid of r@keb@ck as well. But reducing the skill element ? The sites are trying their best to do that already by making games faster and shorter without any help from anyone else.

Poker is an entertainment game like BJ and roulette ,just different. Some people make money at it but in 10 years time less than 0.25%  will (the best of the best). The shrewdies who love the game can just play against each other for their enjoyment but vast
majority want more fun
What about betting on the flop ,then do a roulette spin if it comes up red then re -deal the flop, or every so often change the players hole cards half way through the hand. Sure theres many more things to do to make it more random and fun plus it would
obliterate a lot of the cheats ,bots and sharks ,which can only be a good thing to help poker re grow.

What you seem to be saying is because you cant be bothered to learn how to play the game or exercise good bankroll management, the site should compensate by removing as much of the skill element as possible, to make it a level playing field with those who can.

Its an interesting suggestion, unfortunately given the r@ke it would end up with everyone apart from the networks losing. Or are you going to tell me there are a whole army of successful professional roulette players out there fleecing the high street bookies FOBT's day in and day out ?

Think your missing the point Chip , you seem to be coming at it from the angle of poker being a game to make long term profits from, when most are playing for entertainment after a hard days work. Most don't have time to read strategy books etc they just want to be entertained and hopefully make some money along the way. It's fine with me having sites having games where skill is a factor but
these should be a side shoot for the more luck based entertainment games. People playing FOBT's and roulette know there going to lose
in the long run but enjoy the buzz of the ride. Poker's an entertainment game that because there is a skill factor(for the present time) has seen leeches
latch on and destroy its entertainment value.

There are a plethora of games for people who cant be boshed to learn how to play. They are called low stakes super turbos, or donkfests for short. I suggest you stick to them if thats what turns you on.

They have nothing much to do with poker, but it seems to be what you are after by way of "entertainment "

The only way you will make money from poker long term is by putting in the effort in terms of learning how to play, and then practising good bankroll management. If you dont like the idea of hard work then seriously, it isnt something you will make money from.

Wouldn't recommend anyone put a lot of time and effort into poker at any level  ,the games get harder year in year out. Surprised if there are too many making good money just by hard work these days , if they are then their on borrowed time, only those who are very skilled or cheating are likely to
make any significant money in the years to come. The boom years for online Poker of 10 years ago are long gone.
Appreciate people like playing it as an intellectual hobby and put a lot of effort in to improve their game,fair play to them if they get their  enjoyment from it this way. If they can make money at it even better, but I wouldn't count on it lasting unless you've got a natural talent for it, it's becoming a
Viciously competitive market.

Micro stakes still soft as (FYI)

Not sure why it isn't paying though...probably a change in me and desire levels to grind it out

20% rake is a killer for the little guys, it stops the feeding at higher levels and I think this is the biggest problem we face.

STTs are not a solved game Chip, I know a basic STT strategy but I have to adopt it to every game and every player - if you can write a bot that can do that then you're a brilliant programmer (and a great poker player to boot.)

Ricky, you don't have to be the best to win in the game, Maratik won $1M from a FPP satellite on Stars. There are many games that have an overlay or added money, look for them - it will give you an edge and quite possibly could turn you from a losing into a winning player.

Roy, I agree but have trebled my bankroll on here thanks to game selecting and a few private games

Chip is right though, those that win the most work hardest on their game. It is a game of skill with an element of luck, long term right decisions win long term profits.

There were at least 2 bots playing STT's on Ongame showing a positive ROI over something like 100,000 games playing $10 and $20 stakes. Everyone knows optimal strategy, especially around the bubble and heads up. Or they seem to once you move up the levels.

I started off like everyone playing $2 games. Within a couple of years I was playing as high as $55 games. I'm back down at $10 buy ins again and barely make that pay when I can be boshed to play which is not very often anymore.

A few years ago it was easy money playing STT, most of the players were Greek, Cypriot, Spaniards, Italians, etc. Now its all Eastern European players, and at 20-30 dollar levels you rarely come across really bad players, or people making really terrible plays. 

I wouldn't even try playing higher levels than that anymore, it would just be EV- for me.

Have people just caught up and become better than you Chip?

When we were Pokerchamps software, we as poker players, had the field to ourselves. When we moved to Ongaming I struggled in the same games I was crushing on Pokerchamps. I still find it hard on I-Poker but I'm working on my game, trying new things and reading/ learning about 25% of my time now. One thing and why I like it here is that I-Poker is a conglomeration of gambling sites that offer poker. There are many more casual players here than on Stars. There's also much more value, cakeback and a few specific games that make it +EV to play here.

Bots are just a lame excuse. Yes they do exist and I've seen one in action but it was break even at best and only made mathematical decisions. I couldn't program one that makes specific decisions according to my table and opponents. There's just so many variables that make this game so complicated. If you programmed a tight aggressive bot then a tight aggressive strategy in position will beat it. Just 3 bet it more and bluff in position. The same can be true of any other type of bot you will come up against. Any bot is beatable which is why this game is so great.

You are right about higher stakes being -EV though. There are just too many good or better players out there that make these games so hard. Table selection is a key, don't play with good players. I've said before, Wulfman was the best STT player I came up against on Pokerchamps, he was the only player I avoided in a STT. It was an -EV decision me playing him. When we moved to Ongaming there were many Wulfman types who knew as much as he did. Even that great player struggled.

The game isn't easy anymore, you need to keep working on your game or be left behind.

Like I said, the players are better and theres very little dead money in the pool. The Greeks and Cyps were awful players, most of the Bulgarian, Hungarian, Russian, Ukranian, lads know what they are doing and dont make mistakes. They also live in countries with a lower standard of living so dont need to play at that high a level to make the game pay.

Wulf was/is a sound bloke and a decent player, but theres hundreds better than him out there now. Dunno what the likes of Sven Vath, FEE, and Rivva Rat are doing these days, and whether they are still making it pay ?

I haven't a clue what you are on about when you say 3 bet more and bluff in position, you must be talking about a different game to me, perhaps six max with long blinds or deep stacks ? The bots play 10 and 30 man STT's,turbos with blind levels of 2 or 3 minutes, and the only hands they are playing before the blinds reach 50/100 or 75/150 are AA,KK,and maybe QQ.After that everything is push/fold.There is no post flop play. 

The bottom line is that to make a living from STT's in the UK you need to be playing $20 games or higher and have at least a small positive ROI. To do that a few years back wasn't that tough, I would find it incredibly difficult now. I have always been honest with myself, and never claimed to be anything special. If I'm unable to beat a level I dont blame the software or the network, I drop down a level. Playing $10 STT games just isnt something I want to do. Multitabling STT's is boring and how much can you realistically make ? A tenner an hour if you are lucky ?

Anyone good at poker would be miles better off playing cash games than STT.

I'm saying for every playing style there is a different style that will combat it. I never worry about bots or colluders although if I suspect I'm being cheated then I have and will report them.

You group players from the same nation as awful players but in reality there are good and bad from every country. I never use a location as a tell, if you do then I think your making a big mistake.

You stated STTs are a solved game and their not. There is a basic strategy of playing tight at the start and loosening up as the game progresses but every table and players are different and it needs a changing strategy to adapt. I've been playing those $6 jackpot STTs, high raake but raakeback really makes a difference and my opinion is if I play enough of these then I will hit that jackpot one day. I fortunately sharkscoped a player just after he hit a $22k jackpot. He was a total rock, not quite a 5LEEPY type but playing the type of game you mentioned. If he can hit it then so can I if I put enough volume in.

There is a load of "dead money" as you put it on I-Poker. I find there are far more whales on this site than on Stars. There's also a good few promotions to be had on various skins. The Money Matrix on here for example pushes your raakebaack to near 50%. Even with such high raake, the game can pay.

Although I like it here but I don't just tie myself to one skin. I've money tied up on a few sites and I move between them according to games and promotions.

Just because Stars has 10x the volume of players doesn't mean it's the best to be on. I think I've only seen 1 game with an overlay and that was only for a few extra $$$. Look around, find the juiciest games and promotions and find the value. There's still a lot of free money in this game.

If Bf can stop people betting from certain countries using their location tracker then it should be pretty easy for them to make some games
UK and Ireland only. The vast majority of cheats wouldn't be in these games as from my experience it tends to come from other countries.
These games could attract more customers increasing BF  profits and make it more pleasurable to play and possibly more profitable.
     Tend to agree about the Eastern Europeans, they've always been good at analytical games,chess being a shining example. It's only likely
To get worse playing against these folk as their likely to increase in number and ability. The point about Eastern European players is that they
Are willing to grind for very low ROI because wages are so low in these countries.  A UK player isn't going to be keen to play to earn same money
Per hour as he could get flipping burgers whereas to an Eastern European £5 per hour could be seen as a decent wage.
As far a cheating goes ,my personal belief is that it is very prevelant ,the poker magazines never bring it up as their gravy training ,but its a
Massive problem in online poker which many seem oblivious to. Mostly play heads up these days due being sickened by the constant levels
Of collusion.
    In summary. Randomise the games more,have UK and Ireland games only,stop tracking software,randomise seats , have cheat spotting specialists and have every player as always being anonymous to other players. If the sites start implementing some of these then the rot could
Stop ,if they don't and don't come up with any other ideas then poker going to continue on its downward slide.

98% of players don't play to make a living and only the top 1/3rd make any long term profit (Sharkscope stats) so flipping burgers analogy is pretty useless. there's nothing wrong with putting £30 in on a Friday night and playing a couple of games for enjoyment. My son plays Call of Duty all day and night for no reward, should he be criticised? Poker is a great past time with the chance to win big, anyone can get lucky although those that work hardest in learning the game win more often than not.

My biggest criticism is the over charging of raake. It stops the little guys feeding the higher stakes.

There are anonymous tables if you don't want to be stalked by better players. The RNG is straight for all, if you lose then don't blame the software or other players, be honest with yourself and work on your game. There is no tracking software on a few sites, if you don't like it move to those sites. I personally use a HUD along with other software to help my game. I use any tool I can if it helps me.

I still love the game after 10 years of playing.

Oval, if you are playing STT recreationally at micro stakes on a weekend for a bit of fun, then thats fair enough. Yeah sure you can sit there analysing other peoples play, and 5 bet buff dry flops etc, but trust me, nobody playing poker to make more than the minimum wage is playing 6+ tables and sitting there looking at who is registering to pick out the weaker games, analysing every player, or adapting their tactics game by game. They autoregister for games, and play them almost identically, play tight to the push/fold stage and then play purely by the maths.   

Assuming the skill level in $2-$5 games is the same as it is in $20-$25 games, or that the influx of Eastern Europeans hasnt changed the profitability of STT's is just daft. Im not suggesting all Greek/Cypriots/Spaniards were bad players, but the vast majority were,and its no wonder their ecconomies went busto.

Once upon a time you could sit at a 9 man $25 STT table on BF and there would be 3 or 4 players with -20 ROI's or worse. Now you very rarely see more than one at that level.

STT's changed when players started playing 8,10,12,16, tables at a time. I dont disupte that these players can be exploited, but only if you play a lot less tables than they do.

Playing £30 down a local casino could be a decent night out. Playing £30 on here when others have software and others cheat is not a level playing
Field, to encourage people to play under those circumstances is irresponsible, and basically saying to people "play so I can take your money because I have an unfair advantage" ,whereas if it was a level playing field then it would be the ones who have the better skill who will win
You pay once for call of duty game, and I can guarantee in the end he'll get bored of it like every other child does ,but at least it won't have cost
Him an arm and a leg .
Appreciate you have a passion for poker Ovalman but none of your points address how to halt the decline of online poker. In call of duty they alter
The game to keep the customer interested why not in poker.

I don't avoid anyone at the stakes I play but I do table select when I move to a new level. I only ever avoided playing 2 players on here and that was Wulfman and 5LEEPWALKER. Wulfy was the best player I came up against and 5LEEPY because he was shove or fold JJ or better every game. I stole most of his blinds but it was no fun playing against him.

You are referring to the Pokerchamp days aren't you?

Yes the game has changed and there are many better players nowadays but I don't think we realised what a goldmine we were on when Pokerchamps software was running. Remember Betfair is a gambling site, not a poker site and as such most of the players on the Pokerchamps brand were gamblers and not poker players. When we moved to Ongaming I struggled, I'm still struggling on I-Poker but making a profit. The reason is simple, when we moved to Ongaming there was a bigger player pool but also many more decent regs. On Pokerchamps I was the decent reg but when we moved there were many as good or better than me.

Most of my profits came from Betfair specific promotions on Ongaming and I'm finding it similar on I-Poker. I played 4 of those STTs earlier, won 1 and lost 3 - $1 profit but it's raakebaack and the Matrix along with a few other games like the one The Klup ran that gives me my profits here.

I'm pretty happy with I-Poker. I find the site far looser than Stars and I'm making more of a profit here than on Stars. I don't play here every night though, there are other incentives to make me play elsewhere.

I like Stars and it's software but I sharkscoped one player I was having trouble with at $3.50 STTs - he was $10k in profit over the year (and it was May when I checked). There are sharks at the lowest levels on Stars playing 24 tables, that's why it makes more sense playing here imo.

I do look for games with added money or an overlay, there's a $5k guaranteed on WH tonight that usually has an overlay. I'm not playing tonight but usually do, it's games like this that add to your profits.

I built my latest PC from poker profits and I built it so I could play more tables. Volume is the key - even if you do become a raakebaack ****. There are many more bad players than good which is a big bonus. I'd sooner play 10 tables at $5+$1 than 1 table at $50+$5 game. I don't play autobot type, I do analyse myself and my opponents and I do think a lot about the game.

Playing £30 down a local casino could be a decent night out. Playing £30 on here when others have software and others cheat is not a level playing
Field, to encourage people to play under those circumstances is irresponsible, and basically saying to people "play so I can take your money because I have an unfair advantage" ,whereas if it was a level playing field then it would be the ones who have the better skill who will win
You pay once for call of duty game, and I can guarantee in the end he'll get bored of it like every other child does ,but at least it won't have cost
Him an arm and a leg .
Appreciate you have a passion for poker Ovalman but none of your points address how to halt the decline of online poker. In call of duty they alter
The game to keep the customer interested why not in poker.

I get far many more bad beats live than I do online. Then again I'm not a good live player and the pub game where I play is riddled with fish types that I should be happy playing against.

Yes I use Holdem Manager and Notecaddy but for many years I didn't and was profitable. HEM fixed a major leak in my game that I wouldn't have known about otherwise. Both pieces of software are totally legitimate and cost next to nothing, $100 and $60. There's 200,000 players on Pokerstars atm, I wouldn't say that's a decline.

I've came from a freeroll background. I've won money from freerolls and built bankrolls from scratch. As I said only a small minority play the game for a living. I suppose I would class myself as a serious amateur, I think Chip would be in the same bracket. I don't play freerolls anymore (I do play 3-4 a week TBF) but we both make money from the game.

If you lose constantly then you have to work on your game. You're making fundamental mistakes either by chasing without odds or bad starting hand selections. Rock up and pot bet when you get a hand is the best advice I can give.

I think the game is thriving even without a US market. Those jackpot STTs start every 2 minutes, anyone can get lucky 4 games in a row.

BTW Paddy Power ran a promotion years ago, win 3 in a row get $50, win 4 in a row get $500. I won 3 and got my 4th heads up, had my opponent all in AKs v QTo and he hit. I lost the game after that, it still haunts me but it gives me hope I can do it again.

To be fair collusi0n is probably only something you need to worry about at stakes of $20 and above, anyone good at it probably isn't going to bother at levels lower than that. At one point it was endemic on the Ongame network. Regs like me and gnasher lost a tidy chunk playing against them before we sussed what was going on. Even then it was only thanks to one of the gang breaking rank and grassing the rest of the squad up on 2+2.

I'd guess it's natural ecology more than anything - fish got killed off, burned out, sharks became fish, got burned off....etc etc until there's barely players left. There's a recession on, and not much spare cash for anyone to become a new fish these days.

SeeChino Reem one of the all time poker slime balls won a big title recently. Does Lederer ever dare show his face at Poker tournaments?

The more tables you play the greater the swings, and at low limits impossible to beat the rake. Gave up trying on Stars and Tilt. Speed poker is the same players and again not profitable.Even with software and plugging your leaks players adjust to your game.
Higher level MTT's are the only thing worth playing but getting to the final table is rare and of course you need a good bankroll to play these often.

I prefer to be trading in sports markets, might play more MTT's but there isn't a clear enough edge tbh.