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26 Jul 12 01:29
Date Joined: 05 Oct 04
| Topic/replies: 775 | Blogger: harter's blog
It's pretty obvious that many on here are bots - logged into numerous games at once, playing 24/7, play seems very technical etc.

Put the names of players here that you feel fit that category.
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Report shudacuda July 26, 2012 9:56 AM BST
Report chipfire227 July 26, 2012 10:15 AM BST
sexysandy69_ and shummrich are absolutely 100% in that category, and taking about 40k a year out of the poker economy.

Likelyhood of the network doing anything about it- absolutely zero.
Report Dumpfbacke July 27, 2012 9:25 AM BST
Is it allowed to post names?
I play regularly these Turbo Sngs and I can tell you that there are AT LEAST 10 players who fit into this group!

The annoying thing is that Ongame is aware of that fact but (UNABLE?) to do anything...
Many of these players even have similar pfr/agression stats!

Its so obvious!
Report chipfire227 July 27, 2012 10:56 AM BST
Well the ones I mentioned play at least a dozen tables at a time, they never, ever, time out, and indeed they always makes a decision on every hand after 4.5 seconds.

Its a nightmare playing them heads up as presumably they have been programmed to use Nash, so are essentially playing mathematically perfect heads up poker. Given the turbo structure it's almost impossible to exploit them heads up, which is why they are making so much money.

Unfortunately they also make a lot of money for the Network which is why they are tolerated.
Report Dumpfbacke July 27, 2012 11:09 AM BST
Yes, I am 100% sure, too!

Cause I use PT, I can tell you that many other parameters fit, too!!

Did you ever tell the BETFAIR support about that?
ONGAME has a very bad track record, regarding the bot-problematic...
Report Dumpfbacke July 27, 2012 11:11 AM BST
Maybe Ongame runs these bots *lol*


They are experts in destroying this wonderful network!!
Report bully666 July 27, 2012 11:54 AM BST
I thought NASH is only good if both players play according to NASH.

So what you need to do, is exploit it.
If you cant figure it out how to exploit nash, google it.
Report Burton-Brewers July 27, 2012 4:30 PM BST
what is nash?
Report chipfire227 July 27, 2012 7:08 PM BST
Yeah but like I said we are talking heads up at the end of 10 and 30 seat turbo games. You rarely get more than a dozen hands heads up, and if the bot is shoving/calling/folding when its mathematically correct to do so,the only way to exploit that it to play mathematically incorrect poker, which over a short series of hands wont get you very far.

You know there shoving ranges from the SB will generally be wider than your average low stakes donk who is usually just happy to have cashed and will fold too often from that spot, but widening your calling ranges slightly only really makes a marginal difference.

Im pretty sure you could exploit a bot programmed to use Nash over 150 hands, but over 6-15 hands I cant see that theres much you can do.

Likewise their bubble play must have ICM factored in.

They are beatable, of course they are, but the bottom line is they seem to be marginal winners at stakes up $20, which in itself is bad enough. But what is killing regulars is that these BOTs are getting maximum **** and Leaderbaord money from the Networks.

Those Networks are typically taking 10% rake off every player. Of that they will usually return around 50% to the player pool via RB and promotions, but the bots are swallowing up big chunks of that money, which then vanishes from the poker economy.

One of the things that keeps the recreational player playing is a promotion they have a chance to win a little extra something from, but if all you get are rake races, rake races, and Leaderboards which are also rake races, how can you possibly compete with something playing 1500 STTS a week and which never gets tired or tilts  ?
Report bully666 July 27, 2012 9:20 PM BST
Some good poinst there.

But consider this, maybe these bots are from ongame network itself, so most of the promotion money stays "in the house".

A recreational player will neve care about those promotions, they just require a lot of grind time, and recreational players dont wanna dedicate 10+ hours daily for their "hobby".
Report chipfire227 July 27, 2012 10:13 PM BST
Im pretty sure gnasher will know for certain, but Im sure the bots were high up on the big STT Christmas Promos run by Ongame.

Gnash was playing round the clock and couldnt get near em.I dont see how a human could ever compete with them.

Ive said for donkeys weekly leaderboards should be based on the first 100 or 150 games per week to give everyone who is prepared to put a bit of graft in a chance.

I finished 198th last week and got 5 dollars. I aint complaining bout that, but theres no incentive for me to play any more than that as even if I increased the amount I play by 50% I would still only get 5 dollars.
Report bully666 July 27, 2012 10:16 PM BST
Dont be so sure about humans not able to put in the hands. You probably know the good old Chiren80 1million hands in a month challenge?
Report harter July 28, 2012 1:55 AM BST
letsplai seems to be another that fits into that category in lower stakes sit n gos.
Report harter July 28, 2012 5:46 AM BST
Add Qono to that list
Report Ovalman. July 28, 2012 11:27 AM BST
There are many non bots that can 24 tables, when someone challenged 5LEEPDONKER on the leaderboard, he just played more tables and more hours a day.

What makes you so sure the above names are cheating?

I'm no expert but I reckon I could create an AHK script that could open, close and register me for games. Would you call that cheating?
Report gnashersblackpool July 28, 2012 1:58 PM BST
xmas promo, i played around 1200 games in 3days  and finished about 21st. the usual suspects on lbs finshed in the upper places.
using sexysandy as a guide as its the name i remember most , s/he/it doesnt play 24/7, but does seem to play between  8 and 12hrs a day every day.
this makes me think   a human is watching a program play esp as it never seems to miss a hand/time out and somehow never seems to get disconnected.
it also seems to b first alais into every game it plays.
Report Ovalman. July 28, 2012 3:20 PM BST
Why was your last post removed Chip? It said nothing untoward imo.
Report Ovalman. July 28, 2012 3:45 PM BST
Come to think of it, why was my post removed Scared
Report chipfire227 July 28, 2012 5:47 PM BST
I asked Betfair PR about this (censorship) a while back. Aapparently outside normal working hours moderation of the board is passed to a couple of £6 an hour borderline morons, who delete any posts that contain certain words or phrases.

There is no scope for common sense because these fellas doing it have none.
Report Ovalman. July 28, 2012 5:49 PM BST
I've no probs being carded for promoting other sites which I have been in the past but my comment was about multi tabling on here which referenced PS.
Report Ovalman. July 28, 2012 5:53 PM BST
Auto Hotkey allows you to automate things like registering for games, closing tables etc with a little scripting. I'm sure the "bots" mentioned are using such programs.

Remember, we were poker players on a gambling site on the old Pokerchamps software, that's why it was so easy. We're now in a bigger ocean of more savvy players.
Report chipfire227 July 28, 2012 5:58 PM BST
Anyhow, the gist of what I was saying in the deleted post was that while I dont doubt there are humans who can play 20 tables at a time, what they tend to do is autofold junk before it gets round to them, time out from time to time, or take longer over some decisions than others.

They dont take exactly 4.5 seconds over every decision . Even if I was specifically asked to take exactly 4.5 seconds over every decision, I couldnt do it at more than 2 tables at a time.
Report Ovalman. July 28, 2012 6:40 PM BST
Wouldn't it be easy to tweak your bot?

A very lame post Chip.

Poker is a very human game, players can't be predicted. I can read stats off HEM all day and still get it wrong. I've no doubt there are bots that play perfect poker but perfect poker isn't human.

My point is that players CAN 24+ tables and break even and live off the rake and bonuses.
Report Burton-Brewers July 28, 2012 10:42 PM BST
come on chaps what's a nash, never heard of it before?
Report chipfire227 July 28, 2012 10:51 PM BST
You asked how I knew the user names I mentioned were bots, and I explained how I knew.

I have absolutely no idea what the fk you are going on about now. I never said humans couldn't play that many tables, I said they couldnt play that many hands and use exactly 4.5 seconds of their timebank on every single hand.

I'm not really boshed about debating the point ad infinitum, I think all poker should be played by humans with no software aids, which is why I prefer playing live to online these days.
Report chipfire227 July 28, 2012 10:56 PM BST
This gives an overview Brewers
Report Burton-Brewers July 28, 2012 11:46 PM BST
thanks chipfire
Report Ovalman. July 29, 2012 11:50 AM BST
I don't think it would be too hard for any site to catch bots that time every hand @ 4.5 seconds. Similarly, I don't think it would be too hard to programme a bot to vary it's timings between clicks.

I've no doubts there are bots out there but I don't think they'd be so easy to spot and risk being caught by winning the leaderboard every week.

I'd like to hear from Betfair on their policy on bots. Without specifics I'd like to know do they have software in place to catch bots and do they catch and ban players suspected of running a bot.

We know mods read these threads as our recent missing messages show but I feel it would put this whole debate to rest if we actively knew Betfair/ Ongaming were doing something about it.
Report chipfire227 July 29, 2012 12:27 PM BST
sexysandy and schummrich are not Betfair customers so Betfair have very little say in the matter.

I think we have seen in the past how effective BF are at spotting and removing fellows getting up to no good.

We know that BF have no access to player information from other skins because I asked at a Q and A session.

The network is policed by Ongame, but what incentive is there for Ongame to  do anything ? These 2 bots alone play 10,000 STT's a month at an average stake of £10 per game, so they are handing over £10 grand a month in fees, and more importantly generating traffic around the clock for the site. Generally speaking other players dont mind playing against them, so its a win-win situation for the Network.
Report glub July 29, 2012 2:01 PM BST
look how Tsars respond to bot complaints
Report chipfire227 July 29, 2012 4:06 PM BST
I think one of the telling comments was that the player had folded AA and KK pre flop after being timed out- an obvious human error.
Report shumigo August 6, 2012 10:32 AM BST
Wisin86 played I guess 22 hours in a row.So he should be a bot or he dont sleap:))))).He play maybe 14-16 table and he needs just few seconds do the action.
Same situation with newborn12 and zeta5555.
There are other, but i have not proof.
But when you play 24-22 hours per day it is definetely you are bot.
I like ongame and betfair, but if they do not check and bann bots, they became like ipoker.
I hope betfair check these players.
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