Refunded but LESS than tourney entry fee

I played a small stakes rebuy on 23rd May where the tournament went bang after just 6 hands ( was just a prob with that mtt rather than whole network). BF paid out as per chip count there, too, quite happily pocketing the tournament fees for their fantastic product, although they topped up any pedant who complained. Standard, opportunistic salami slicing.

As usual the default is that they will rip you off. If you complain long and hard enough they might begrudgingly give you your entry fee back. However only if the whole site goes down. If you are unlucky enough to get just randomly DC'd in isolation you have no hope.

At least you got something.

I have not been refunded a penny.

And why should the onus be on me to ring them up and chase them up?

I got back more than i thought, £341 to be exact, i rung them but said they were correct, i was in a 10000 event 255 runners and down to last 27 and in 14th place when crashed

Wykh if you ring Helpdesk can you please update either myself or Helmuthian with details of how the conversation went ? We are stockpiling issues like this at the moment for the next Q and A session, should it take place, in December.

Likewise anyone else who has had to chase refunds. I agree that you shouldn't have to ring, but if anyone does and receives poor customer service we will take it up on your behalf with those managing the Helpdesk.

This is what the rules say:

1) The buy-in will be refunded back to all players. If a player bought in with a ticket then they will get their ticket back, if they brought in with cash then they will get their cash back. If a player made a Re-buy then their Re-buy funds will be refunded as well. The refund ‘pool’ is the actual tournament prize pool. Any guaranteed cash, added cash or guaranteed tickets are not covered in this refund; only the direct buy-in will be refunded.

Note that the refund pool is the entry money minus the rake, which is what I received. So technically I have no case and there is not much point to phone the help desk (not that they would understand their own rules most likely anyway).

I just think the principle stinks. If they cannot hold the tournament because of problems their end why on earth should they be allowed to keep all the rake? Chip, perhaps you can raise this at the Q & A...I am very dubious as to wther it is even legal for them to do this..

It also states that the buy in will be refunded which surely means whatever you paid to enter ? In your case if its a sit and go there is never going to be an overlay or a rebuy so it has to be a straightforward refund of what you handed over at the start of the game. If they kept the rake that would theft, plain and simple. You are paying them rake to run a game, if they cant manage to do that they cant keep the rake.

Well you would have thought so wouldn't you? I have sent an email to the Help Desk asking them to clarify the rules. I expect they will say the rake is not part of the buy-in or somesuch nonsense like that. I should mention that we are not talking about megabucks in my case here...it's just the principle because over the whole site it must add up to a pretty penny.

If that is the case that they keep the rake for an incomplete game then that is scandalous.

If it is so it will certainly be raised strongly at the next meeting.

My seven year old would have told you six years ago that the only correct decision here would be to provide a full refund including the rake.

I entered 3 last night

The last one didn't start, so I got my entry fee including rake back.
The middle one had started I got my entry fee less rake back
The first one I was out, so I got nothing back.

I had less than my starting chips in the middle one, so that wasn't unreasonable.

But I'd hope those that had more than the starting chips got more than the entry fee back.  I assume this is what happened to budapeast?

In the SNG I was in it was a 5 seater and one player had already been eliminated. I had the shortest stack of those remaining. I am not too worried how they decide to carve up the funds of the eliminated player, but I still don't see why anyone should get back less than the full entry fee when the site failed to provide a completed tournament. No response yet from Help Desk after 3 1/2 hours.

After 6 1/2 hours I received the following response from Simon at the Help Desk:

Kindly note that for the tournament in question, you bought in for $3.30 and you were refunded $3.07. Please note that we did not keep the fee as otherwise we would have credited your account back with $3. You have been refunded with $3.07 due to the way we refund tournaments in the case of such unplanned outages. I have copied the explanation below.

If no players have been knocked out, all players receive a straight refund, including the entry fee, in their accounts.
If some players have been knocked out, but the payout structure has not been reached, players are refunded as follows:
1) They receive the tournament entry fee.
2) Half the available pot is split equally between all players remaining
3) The second half is split according to chip stack to all remaining players.
If the payout structure has been reached, and some player's have been paid out, the refunds happen as follows:
1) They receive the entry fee
2) All remaining players receive the next amount to be paid out (ie. 6th place payout if 7th has been paid out.)
3) Half of the remaining pot is split equally to all remaining players
4) The other half is split according to chip stack to all remaining players.

Your tournament fell under the second bullet whereby the refunds are done automatically by the system, and the funds are credited to the accounts when the refunds are completed. 

I have replied that his explanation makes no sense whatsover, because there is no way I should have got back less than $3.30.I should have got back $3.30 plus 1/4 of 'half the available pot' plus chipstack share of other half of available pot.

Please note that I obviously do not care a hoot about being ripped off for 23c. But I am concerned that if Betfair's software is doing the calculation incorrectly for me it must be doing it wrong across the board and this needs to be brought to the attention of management and players.

Could BetfairPokerPR please have a look at this and confirm that Betfair did not retain a penny of rake from non-eliminated players in Tourneys after the site outage?

Ongame do the tourney refunds, not Betfair.

Right....I think I have done the maths on this one


5 people in tournament
$3 +.3 entry fee
Total money in = 5 x $3.3 + 5 x 0.3 = $15 + $1.5

Compensation:

All entry fees returned to remaining players
$15 split 2 ways
$7.5 split 4 ways equally    =    1.88 per person
$7.5 split according to chip stack =     $ 2.75 first $ 2.2 2nd $1.65 3rd and 0.9c for 4th (total $7.50)



1)    0.3 entry fee + 1.88 + 2.75
2)    0.3 entry fee + 1.88 + 2.2
3)    0.3 entry fee + 1.88 + 1.65
4)    0.3 entry fee + 1.88 + 0.9
5)    Knocked out therefore doesn’t get anything

Total money given back = $16.2

The discrepancy of £0.3 is because Ongame are not obligated to give back the tournament fee for the person who got knocked out as he participated in the game till his elimination

Hope this makes sense.

Many Thanks for getting back so quick with your calculation. I think the confusion arises because it is not clear what the entry fee actually is. My understanding of Entry Fee was what I paid to enter the tournament whereas your definition seems to be the 0.3 rake.

So what you are basically saying is that I am entitled to the rake back (0.3) plus 1/4 of half the $15 prize pool plus prorated share of half the prize pool. This comes to 0.3+ 1.88 + 0.9 = $3.08, still not the same as what I received, but thereabouts.

I suppose this has a logic to it but I think a fairer approach would be to start by giving everyone still in their full money back ($3.30) then use a formula to decide how to split up the eliminated player's funds. However, assuming the other 3 players received what you say then at least Ongame/Betfair only received the rake from the eliminated player, which seems fair.

Perhaps it would be good to update your rules with a definition of entry fee so this confusion does not arise again in the future in the very unlikely event that the server crashes again.

Once again I appreciate your response and can consider the matter closed for now.

Happy to help wykhamist2.

I am on your side - rather than a complicated formulae i would just give every one there money back and then work out prize distribution based on chip stacks of the remaining players.

Nice to hear that some people were refunded.

The thieving barstewards have not refunded me a bean.

Yes it was a very low stake multi tourny, but it's my money not theirs.

And now they have given me a ticket for an amount equal to the amount that i lost when the site went down.

I have told them to stick there ticket up where the sun don't shine.

I BET IN CASH AND I WANT CASH BACK!

Until this small amount of money is returned i will not touch their poker site with a barge pole FACT

Your account has been credited with cash - I hope this resolves the issue