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At long last I can publish 80% of the report from last weeks meeting at BF HQ in Hammersmith which myself and Thrappers (Helmuthian Folds) attended last Friday on behalf of the forum. Both myself and HF took a day off work to attend and the only freebies we got were a Diet-Coke and a hot chocolate, so accusations that we are now on the payroll are greatly exaggerated.
With hindsight me and HF agreeing to meet at Kings Cross at half 12 wasn't the best idea of all time, and led to several exchanges of conversation via mobile phone along the lines of "I'm in the Ticket Hall, and I cant see you. Theres thousands of people in here.Whats that you say ? Which Ticket Hall ? You mean theres more than one ? "
Having got to Hammersmith I was relying on my usual method of navigation i.e. using gig venues I've been to. Undettered by the fact that The Clarendon ( BAD BRAINS 1986) seems to have been demolished I stuck to the game plan ( get to the The Fulham Greyhound, turn right and head to the river). At this point we spent 10 minutes outside a huge modern office block waiting for HF to load up Google Nav on his eye phone hand held device thing. After numerous mumbled profanities directed at things like "fking 3G" we discovered that the building we were leaning on was indeed BF HQ, and we went in.
BF Poker PR and his mate, met us ( we got the free drink mentioned earlier) and we went on a guided tour of the building. The office is state of the art, though the staff seemed confused as to why 2 blokes, one of which resembled a chubby scarecrow and the other a debt collector, were in their office. Once the gadge running the radio station sussed I was from the North-East my plan to snaffle a hoodie for Barnsey was dead in the water.
Anyhow, the meetings themselves took nearly 5 hours. Some were face to face others were in video conference calls. Here are my notes with additions from Thrappers and a set of deliverables from BF in bold. The only session missing, and probably the most contentious one, is Helpdesk/Customer Service, which we are still waiting for BF to sign off as being an accurate record of what was discussed. Both myself and HF tried as best we could to remain calm and professional, and avoid slanging matches, though one or two sessions got lively. I have to say some of the BF staff were more enthusiastic than others, but there does seem to be a desire to listen and act upon suggestions.
RAKEBACK/ESSENCE
CF) It was made pretty clear that Essence is here to stay for the foreseeable future. They went to great lengths to explain why the system was introduced, and what its benefits were. Essentially it was brought in as a retention tool, with a view to keeping the player on a losing run active for as long as possible.
The majority of players will be largely unaffected by the switch in the long term, and the only players losing out on rake back being paid this way were the very small minority who were winning large sums. While those players may be getting less rake back they still benefit because the losing players are sticking around for longer. To paraphrase, Betfair are happy to keep introducing new players to the pool but it is pointless if these players are being wiped out.
At present retention rates are at record levels so they feel the new system works.
Working out your rake back is impossible as all players are given a co-efficient rating which is what determines the amount of rake back paid in each pot the player generates rake. Player points in each pot If two players contest a pot the rake will be split according to this co-efficient with the player with the worst record getting more than the one with a better record. What this means is that if you are playing a pot with a player with a better record you will get more and vice versa. So even if you knew your own co-efficient it would still be useless to you as you would not know your opponents. Obviously this means tools such as Holdem Manager will not calculate your rake back accurately.
The benefit of all of this is that if you go on a downswing the blow will be softened by increased rake back.
Anyone with queries on their payment must go initially through the Helpdesk ( more of which later ) .
(HF) Was made clear that the essence system is the best for Betfair, the network and the players, if it truly does what they say it does and keeps the poorer players around for longer then I would agree with them but obviously we have to take them at their word that it actually does but apparently their customer retention rates are at an all-time high percentage wise.
Essence
· Essence will be referenced in FAQs and cross-referenced with rakeback
· We will provide a diagrammatic explanation of Essence similar to the one xxxx has produced
Tournaments and Promotions
(CF) The MTT Leaderboard will not be returning and Betfair accepted they were wrong to promise this in the past. The reason given was that the spend on MTT Leaderboards does not generate the same increase in activity as spending the same amount on STTS and Cash. They also stated that to finish at or near the top of the MTT leaderboard would invariably mean having to win an individual MTT which they felt was a sufficent financial reward.
They accepted that the STT Leaderboard had suffered from unacceptable updating issues which were down to problems with getting accurate feeds from Ongame. When pressed they accepted this was a pretty lame excuse and we said if they couldn't get the data regularly why bother running a promotion that just caused bad feelings and complaints. Need to add here that we want to supply inovative promotions and we have and that obvioulsy we don't set them up on teh basis that we have data issues - data issues would occur regardless of what we rolled out and if we didn't operate this way and try new things we would never do anything on the premise that there 'may' be data issues.They argued that things had improved and that the rake race information in particular was functioning particularly well, though neither of us was in a position to contest this. It might be helpful if someone on the forum involved in Leaderboards or Rake Race could comment on this. They did say they were trying to move towards automated leaderboards which were updated throughout the day but when pressed declined to give a timescale for this. Apparently the natural born grinders leaderboard has been has been automated and has worked well with updates every 15 minutes.
On the issue of non-crediting or late crediting of tickets to finals of promotions they again accepted this had been a problem in the past but that they had acted on a Forum suggestion to allow more time between qualification and Finals to ensure everyone who qualified got a ticket. Again they blamed this on a delay in data arriving from Ongame.
Both of us gave suggestions for promotions and pointed out that lots of players liked promos that were aimed at everyone, rather than just the full time grinders such as prize mountain and six shooter. They said they were more than happy to listen to any suggestions raised via the forum, so it's over to you lot to suggest things.
They particularly want to hear from cash players who have complained in the past about the number of promos that end with an entry to an MTT final, as they felt this favoured the Mtt specialists. Then again the MTT players dont get a leaderboard so perhaps swings and roundabouts.
(HF) They did say they would be having leaderborads back for specific promotions in the future (eg the GSOP series). I suggested to them that if they were doing that they should run a GSOP and a mini GSOP leaderboard and have equal prize money so that the smaller stakes players have the same chance and feel as valued as the larger stakes players, after all as in their earlier argument someone winning the GSOP leaderboard would already have won a considerable sum.
· We will disclose any decrease in feed related issues if we’re able to do so, at the next Q + A session
· We will indicate that there is already a (Ongame) leaderboard for the mini GSOP, and that we may do ringfenced Betfair ones in future
· We will engage with the forum to get suggestions which we will workshop (no commitments) and feedback
· Community Tournament to be re-jigged with forums feedback
Fraud and Collusion
(CF) Another lively session in which the head of Fraud advised us how good Ongame were at detecting cheats, and we asked why nobody was ever refunded who had played against them. They have promised to be more transparent in future and press Ongame to release some stats.
We asked why allegations of collusion were removed almost immediately when posted on the forum and they used the old Data Protection clause. What was agreed was that hand histories could be posted on the forum alleging foul play as long as the username of the suspects was blanked out or replaced with Player A/Player B etc,etc. Again any complaints about cheating must go via the Helpdesk.
(HF) On this subject there were some interesting exchanges, the fraud manager seemed horrified about our suggestion that players who had been colluded against should be refunded even if they don't seize any funds (which is their excuse for the lack of refunds). The rest of the room seemed a little more open to the suggestion and I'm sure if they had to pay out in this manner they (and I include ongame in this) may be a little more active in suspending accounts and therefore actually getting money off the cheats. If this is the case then maybe colluders may feel less inclined to target the Ongame network. I get the impression this is more a network than a Betfair problem but it is definitely in Betfair's interests to perform a lot better in this area.
· We will speak with Ongame to establish what level of info we can publish eg:
· Names
· Amounts
· Aliases
· Frequency of incidents
· If Ongame don’t agree to us publishing any of the above, we will release aliases of Betfair poker players who have been found guilty of collusion
We will use web messages to alert players to any refunds received as a result of being colluded against
Product and Updates
(CF) Certainly the most productive session (poor pun we know ) where the Head Honcho had flown in from Malta especially to meet us. He certainly seemed the most committed to the process and was definitely on the ball, having seemingly an encyclopaedic knowledge of the previous Q and A sessions. He was very candid about implementation of suggestions, and stated that any changes to the core platform had to be agreed by partners in the site, and even small changes were difficult to deliver. He was adamant that everything raised in previous Q and A discussions had been raised with Ongame.
Those suggestions already implemented were :
An upgrade making mutitabling easier, this had been tested by 100 high volume players and achieved an 87% satisfaction rating compared to one of about 50% previously.
Improved table alerts
An open similar table feature ( they had opted for this as opposed to waiting lists as they felt it was fairer and would stop those abusing the facility )
Promised by the end of 2011
The facility for multitablers to sit out all tables on next big blind
Timebank for cash games and tournaments
Preferred seat option
Auto-Replay for stt players rather than them having to return to the lobby.
Those ruled out short term :
Late registration for Mtts. This would be a massive change to the core platform apparently and be the only change possible for a whole quarter so has been put back, though it was discussed.
(HF) Find a player Actually being developed now they said
Observer chat Being looked at but surely not a priority if you have player search and you can chat in game lobbies then is is needed? Also can be a curse as well as a blessing when you get the beggars and the stalkers.
Geographical Locations They needed to get agreement across the network as partners also have to agree to release the info, no good if you can only identify the location of Betfair players if colluders can just hide on other skins. Needs addressing as it will also help for players to spot any colluders and again increases site confidence.
BF Poker PR has promised to look at loss limits and/or self-exclusion from Sports Betting and update asap.
· Delivery of Ongame roadmap
· Communication to the forum next time we meet on what improvements have been delivered, what has/will be workshopped, what ideas have been rejected, and what the 3 month roadmap looks like
· We will ascertain whether players can manually exclude from Sports products or if it can be delivered by product team
Finally on the subject of the Community Game :
Betfair are committed to this long term and want to develop it further. They are happy to run a leaderboard and put some of the prize money into this to generate more long term interest and reward those who play it regularly with a decent prize/pay out. They are also open to suggestion on changes to the format every now and then, so for instance having a week where its deep stacked or PLO. These developments should be happening by September
With hindsight me and HF agreeing to meet at Kings Cross at half 12 wasn't the best idea of all time, and led to several exchanges of conversation via mobile phone along the lines of "I'm in the Ticket Hall, and I cant see you. Theres thousands of people in here.Whats that you say ? Which Ticket Hall ? You mean theres more than one ? "
Having got to Hammersmith I was relying on my usual method of navigation i.e. using gig venues I've been to. Undettered by the fact that The Clarendon ( BAD BRAINS 1986) seems to have been demolished I stuck to the game plan ( get to the The Fulham Greyhound, turn right and head to the river). At this point we spent 10 minutes outside a huge modern office block waiting for HF to load up Google Nav on his eye phone hand held device thing. After numerous mumbled profanities directed at things like "fking 3G" we discovered that the building we were leaning on was indeed BF HQ, and we went in.
BF Poker PR and his mate, met us ( we got the free drink mentioned earlier) and we went on a guided tour of the building. The office is state of the art, though the staff seemed confused as to why 2 blokes, one of which resembled a chubby scarecrow and the other a debt collector, were in their office. Once the gadge running the radio station sussed I was from the North-East my plan to snaffle a hoodie for Barnsey was dead in the water.
Anyhow, the meetings themselves took nearly 5 hours. Some were face to face others were in video conference calls. Here are my notes with additions from Thrappers and a set of deliverables from BF in bold. The only session missing, and probably the most contentious one, is Helpdesk/Customer Service, which we are still waiting for BF to sign off as being an accurate record of what was discussed. Both myself and HF tried as best we could to remain calm and professional, and avoid slanging matches, though one or two sessions got lively. I have to say some of the BF staff were more enthusiastic than others, but there does seem to be a desire to listen and act upon suggestions.
RAKEBACK/ESSENCE
CF) It was made pretty clear that Essence is here to stay for the foreseeable future. They went to great lengths to explain why the system was introduced, and what its benefits were. Essentially it was brought in as a retention tool, with a view to keeping the player on a losing run active for as long as possible.
The majority of players will be largely unaffected by the switch in the long term, and the only players losing out on rake back being paid this way were the very small minority who were winning large sums. While those players may be getting less rake back they still benefit because the losing players are sticking around for longer. To paraphrase, Betfair are happy to keep introducing new players to the pool but it is pointless if these players are being wiped out.
At present retention rates are at record levels so they feel the new system works.
Working out your rake back is impossible as all players are given a co-efficient rating which is what determines the amount of rake back paid in each pot the player generates rake. Player points in each pot If two players contest a pot the rake will be split according to this co-efficient with the player with the worst record getting more than the one with a better record. What this means is that if you are playing a pot with a player with a better record you will get more and vice versa. So even if you knew your own co-efficient it would still be useless to you as you would not know your opponents. Obviously this means tools such as Holdem Manager will not calculate your rake back accurately.
The benefit of all of this is that if you go on a downswing the blow will be softened by increased rake back.
Anyone with queries on their payment must go initially through the Helpdesk ( more of which later ) .
(HF) Was made clear that the essence system is the best for Betfair, the network and the players, if it truly does what they say it does and keeps the poorer players around for longer then I would agree with them but obviously we have to take them at their word that it actually does but apparently their customer retention rates are at an all-time high percentage wise.
Essence
· Essence will be referenced in FAQs and cross-referenced with rakeback
· We will provide a diagrammatic explanation of Essence similar to the one xxxx has produced
Tournaments and Promotions
(CF) The MTT Leaderboard will not be returning and Betfair accepted they were wrong to promise this in the past. The reason given was that the spend on MTT Leaderboards does not generate the same increase in activity as spending the same amount on STTS and Cash. They also stated that to finish at or near the top of the MTT leaderboard would invariably mean having to win an individual MTT which they felt was a sufficent financial reward.
They accepted that the STT Leaderboard had suffered from unacceptable updating issues which were down to problems with getting accurate feeds from Ongame. When pressed they accepted this was a pretty lame excuse and we said if they couldn't get the data regularly why bother running a promotion that just caused bad feelings and complaints. Need to add here that we want to supply inovative promotions and we have and that obvioulsy we don't set them up on teh basis that we have data issues - data issues would occur regardless of what we rolled out and if we didn't operate this way and try new things we would never do anything on the premise that there 'may' be data issues.They argued that things had improved and that the rake race information in particular was functioning particularly well, though neither of us was in a position to contest this. It might be helpful if someone on the forum involved in Leaderboards or Rake Race could comment on this. They did say they were trying to move towards automated leaderboards which were updated throughout the day but when pressed declined to give a timescale for this. Apparently the natural born grinders leaderboard has been has been automated and has worked well with updates every 15 minutes.
On the issue of non-crediting or late crediting of tickets to finals of promotions they again accepted this had been a problem in the past but that they had acted on a Forum suggestion to allow more time between qualification and Finals to ensure everyone who qualified got a ticket. Again they blamed this on a delay in data arriving from Ongame.
Both of us gave suggestions for promotions and pointed out that lots of players liked promos that were aimed at everyone, rather than just the full time grinders such as prize mountain and six shooter. They said they were more than happy to listen to any suggestions raised via the forum, so it's over to you lot to suggest things.
They particularly want to hear from cash players who have complained in the past about the number of promos that end with an entry to an MTT final, as they felt this favoured the Mtt specialists. Then again the MTT players dont get a leaderboard so perhaps swings and roundabouts.
(HF) They did say they would be having leaderborads back for specific promotions in the future (eg the GSOP series). I suggested to them that if they were doing that they should run a GSOP and a mini GSOP leaderboard and have equal prize money so that the smaller stakes players have the same chance and feel as valued as the larger stakes players, after all as in their earlier argument someone winning the GSOP leaderboard would already have won a considerable sum.
· We will disclose any decrease in feed related issues if we’re able to do so, at the next Q + A session
· We will indicate that there is already a (Ongame) leaderboard for the mini GSOP, and that we may do ringfenced Betfair ones in future
· We will engage with the forum to get suggestions which we will workshop (no commitments) and feedback
· Community Tournament to be re-jigged with forums feedback
Fraud and Collusion
(CF) Another lively session in which the head of Fraud advised us how good Ongame were at detecting cheats, and we asked why nobody was ever refunded who had played against them. They have promised to be more transparent in future and press Ongame to release some stats.
We asked why allegations of collusion were removed almost immediately when posted on the forum and they used the old Data Protection clause. What was agreed was that hand histories could be posted on the forum alleging foul play as long as the username of the suspects was blanked out or replaced with Player A/Player B etc,etc. Again any complaints about cheating must go via the Helpdesk.
(HF) On this subject there were some interesting exchanges, the fraud manager seemed horrified about our suggestion that players who had been colluded against should be refunded even if they don't seize any funds (which is their excuse for the lack of refunds). The rest of the room seemed a little more open to the suggestion and I'm sure if they had to pay out in this manner they (and I include ongame in this) may be a little more active in suspending accounts and therefore actually getting money off the cheats. If this is the case then maybe colluders may feel less inclined to target the Ongame network. I get the impression this is more a network than a Betfair problem but it is definitely in Betfair's interests to perform a lot better in this area.
· We will speak with Ongame to establish what level of info we can publish eg:
· Names
· Amounts
· Aliases
· Frequency of incidents
· If Ongame don’t agree to us publishing any of the above, we will release aliases of Betfair poker players who have been found guilty of collusion
We will use web messages to alert players to any refunds received as a result of being colluded against
Product and Updates
(CF) Certainly the most productive session (poor pun we know ) where the Head Honcho had flown in from Malta especially to meet us. He certainly seemed the most committed to the process and was definitely on the ball, having seemingly an encyclopaedic knowledge of the previous Q and A sessions. He was very candid about implementation of suggestions, and stated that any changes to the core platform had to be agreed by partners in the site, and even small changes were difficult to deliver. He was adamant that everything raised in previous Q and A discussions had been raised with Ongame.
Those suggestions already implemented were :
An upgrade making mutitabling easier, this had been tested by 100 high volume players and achieved an 87% satisfaction rating compared to one of about 50% previously.
Improved table alerts
An open similar table feature ( they had opted for this as opposed to waiting lists as they felt it was fairer and would stop those abusing the facility )
Promised by the end of 2011
The facility for multitablers to sit out all tables on next big blind
Timebank for cash games and tournaments
Preferred seat option
Auto-Replay for stt players rather than them having to return to the lobby.
Those ruled out short term :
Late registration for Mtts. This would be a massive change to the core platform apparently and be the only change possible for a whole quarter so has been put back, though it was discussed.
(HF) Find a player Actually being developed now they said
Observer chat Being looked at but surely not a priority if you have player search and you can chat in game lobbies then is is needed? Also can be a curse as well as a blessing when you get the beggars and the stalkers.
Geographical Locations They needed to get agreement across the network as partners also have to agree to release the info, no good if you can only identify the location of Betfair players if colluders can just hide on other skins. Needs addressing as it will also help for players to spot any colluders and again increases site confidence.
BF Poker PR has promised to look at loss limits and/or self-exclusion from Sports Betting and update asap.
· Delivery of Ongame roadmap
· Communication to the forum next time we meet on what improvements have been delivered, what has/will be workshopped, what ideas have been rejected, and what the 3 month roadmap looks like
· We will ascertain whether players can manually exclude from Sports products or if it can be delivered by product team
Finally on the subject of the Community Game :
Betfair are committed to this long term and want to develop it further. They are happy to run a leaderboard and put some of the prize money into this to generate more long term interest and reward those who play it regularly with a decent prize/pay out. They are also open to suggestion on changes to the format every now and then, so for instance having a week where its deep stacked or PLO. These developments should be happening by September
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Chippo, does that section on essense mean that this rating, that we're all branded with, is contained within the actual poker software? Secondly, did either of you query the argument that losing players were retained thru extra rakeback? Always thought losing players never bothered to sign up for RB. I never did for the first year I played. Ty
Daryl,
Yes we did raise the point but those not on rakeback deals get VPP's and their distribution also comes under the essence system.
It was apparent that they believe in tyhe essence system and it was here to stay.
Yes we did raise the point but those not on rakeback deals get VPP's and their distribution also comes under the essence system.
It was apparent that they believe in tyhe essence system and it was here to stay.
Thinking about it logically it must be, though they didnt specifically say so. I do recall them saying something along the lines of your co-efficent being based on your last 500 raked hands and fluctuating.
It doesn't just benefit the losing player who is registered for rakeback, it benefits anyone on a long losing run, which may obviously include someone who is a long term winner. They did stress that for the majority of players the difference would be marginal one way or the other.
I did ask the question whether their strategy wasnt simply geared towards making more money for them, and wasn't really about "protecting the poker eco-system" , which didnt go down too well. And as HF points out in his comments we are to an extent taking them on their word. Having said that it's hard to disagree with the thinking that says the game isn't sustainable long term if only 5% are winning and they dont put the money back into the site, but withdraw it and spend it on something else. Though of course taking some of their wealth and redistributing it wont neccessarily stop this happening, it will simply slow it down.
The other point they made is that for new players poker is a steep learning curve and that they sometimes need to be cushioned with slightly higher rakeback while they are learning the game.
It doesn't just benefit the losing player who is registered for rakeback, it benefits anyone on a long losing run, which may obviously include someone who is a long term winner. They did stress that for the majority of players the difference would be marginal one way or the other.
I did ask the question whether their strategy wasnt simply geared towards making more money for them, and wasn't really about "protecting the poker eco-system" , which didnt go down too well. And as HF points out in his comments we are to an extent taking them on their word. Having said that it's hard to disagree with the thinking that says the game isn't sustainable long term if only 5% are winning and they dont put the money back into the site, but withdraw it and spend it on something else. Though of course taking some of their wealth and redistributing it wont neccessarily stop this happening, it will simply slow it down.
The other point they made is that for new players poker is a steep learning curve and that they sometimes need to be cushioned with slightly higher rakeback while they are learning the game.
But the point still remains that there is no way of checking it for yourself.
Which means we have to take it on trust that it is correct....and trust is not exactly something many have in betfair currently.
Which means we have to take it on trust that it is correct....and trust is not exactly something many have in betfair currently.
This is true, but what they said was that for most players the difference between a standard rakeback deal and Essence should be marginal unless you have an exceptionally good run, in which case you will be worse off, or a particularly bad run, in which case you will be better off.
What would be helpful would be if high volume cash players can confirm that traffic is still good, and that the game is still beatable even on the slightly lower rakeback, because BF/Ongame seem to think that their cash player retention is good.
What would be helpful would be if high volume cash players can confirm that traffic is still good, and that the game is still beatable even on the slightly lower rakeback, because BF/Ongame seem to think that their cash player retention is good.
The only one this benefits is them. The only reason im still hoping betfair bucks their ideas up is that im on the old rakeback system which i prefer being a cash player and mainly HU. I played on FT also but theyve gone. These bs loyalty schemes only benefit the site, it can benefit the player if they have no life and spend most of the day playing online poker (and whats the point in that if u have no life. From what i gather, Betfair arent making any more changes to the software so for me thats it. I will uninstall Betfair for good. Im not gonna waste any more of my time on a site so poor as this one!
Thanks lads for putting your time and effort into this. Will have another read when I'm not so tired and post if need be. Once again, thanks.
look i cant rea all thst at tgher m omenbt but ui am glad you ghave found thw time to post back to us all ion t uhe commuinity [smiley:crazy] Again i would like to take tis opportunity to wish me sincere congratulations to whateva might be happening in your life right now.Nuff respek !
It made me laugh how within 24 hours of reading my post on your original thread, That you then start a NEW thread here to update us on the 80 percent finished report
Hehe
What also made me laugh is how the people that have blamed me in the past for things being changed can now accuse me AGAIN
My only serious suggestion was to STOP PROMOTIONS,
And I see they are putting this to the test by stopping the MTT LEADERBOARD
Hehe
What also made me laugh is how the people that have blamed me in the past for things being changed can now accuse me AGAIN
My only serious suggestion was to STOP PROMOTIONS,
And I see they are putting this to the test by stopping the MTT LEADERBOARD
The MTT Leaderboard was stopped a long time ago. You cant stop something that has already been stopped. [;)]
What they have said is that it wont be reintroduced, though they are considering mini leaderboards for specialist promotions like GSOP.
What they have said is that it wont be reintroduced, though they are considering mini leaderboards for specialist promotions like GSOP.
i have a question ref this statement :
"the fraud manager seemed horrified about our suggestion that players who had been colluded against should be refunded even if they don't seize any funds (which is their excuse for the lack of refunds)."
i seem to remember that in previous Q&A sessions betfair have stated that they have made refunds to players who have suffered from sollusion issues, but the above statement kind of denies that refunds have been given out (albeit with the caveat of "if they didnt seize any funds")
can someone who may have these Q&As on record see if betfair have indeed stated that refunds have been given in the past please, or am i confusing this with a site that has refunded players even if funds werent seized due to lack of fraud diligence
Mick
"the fraud manager seemed horrified about our suggestion that players who had been colluded against should be refunded even if they don't seize any funds (which is their excuse for the lack of refunds)."
i seem to remember that in previous Q&A sessions betfair have stated that they have made refunds to players who have suffered from sollusion issues, but the above statement kind of denies that refunds have been given out (albeit with the caveat of "if they didnt seize any funds")
can someone who may have these Q&As on record see if betfair have indeed stated that refunds have been given in the past please, or am i confusing this with a site that has refunded players even if funds werent seized due to lack of fraud diligence
Mick
they cant tell u the name of who is in charge.
its confidendialfor security reasons,or that what we was told by the bfpr manager last time.
the prmanager wouldnt even reveal his name.
from this exercise we didnt seem to learn much other than timebanks are coming,sit out bigblindbutton is comin, and player locations arent.
refunds arent comin for some of us that suffered from suspected collusion which chip is1who was also affected.
its confidendialfor security reasons,or that what we was told by the bfpr manager last time.
the prmanager wouldnt even reveal his name.
from this exercise we didnt seem to learn much other than timebanks are coming,sit out bigblindbutton is comin, and player locations arent.
refunds arent comin for some of us that suffered from suspected collusion which chip is1who was also affected.
I made an allegation of collusion against 5 players at the end of April. The players reported were some of those named in the infamous 2 plus 2 thread.
I finally got a full response from BF a couple of weeks ago. To cut a long story short they confirmed the players affected were investigated. They stated there was insufficent evidence to prove beyond doubt they were colluding, but they were told they were not to play at the same tables as each other in future. At this point they elected to quit the site. Make of that what you will, but it's fair to say I wasn't best pleased.
I stayed reasonably calm during the Fraud session, it was actually Thrappers who put the boot in at the point we were told Ongame were catching record numbers of cheats but they couldnt refund people if funds were not recovered from them. To be fair BF PR actually backed Thrappers up on this point.
They have stated they will publish the names of banned players, which if it happens, will be a massive leap forward IMHO given this has never happened before.
I'm not entirely sure who, if anyone, is in overall charge. There seem to be lots of heads of this, and heads of that, sometimes with conflicting views on how things should be run, which may be part of the problem.
PR deffo seems to be batting for us, as does the gadge who flew in from Malta. Both of them genuinely seem to understand where the problems lie. One or two others gave the impression having to speak to real customers was their worst nightmare.
Think the next meeting will be more informative. They havent promised a lot (which I actually think is better than them promising stuff they cant possibly deliver just to shut folk up for a while)so if they cant even deliver that, we may as well all pack in.
I finally got a full response from BF a couple of weeks ago. To cut a long story short they confirmed the players affected were investigated. They stated there was insufficent evidence to prove beyond doubt they were colluding, but they were told they were not to play at the same tables as each other in future. At this point they elected to quit the site. Make of that what you will, but it's fair to say I wasn't best pleased.
I stayed reasonably calm during the Fraud session, it was actually Thrappers who put the boot in at the point we were told Ongame were catching record numbers of cheats but they couldnt refund people if funds were not recovered from them. To be fair BF PR actually backed Thrappers up on this point.
They have stated they will publish the names of banned players, which if it happens, will be a massive leap forward IMHO given this has never happened before.
I'm not entirely sure who, if anyone, is in overall charge. There seem to be lots of heads of this, and heads of that, sometimes with conflicting views on how things should be run, which may be part of the problem.
PR deffo seems to be batting for us, as does the gadge who flew in from Malta. Both of them genuinely seem to understand where the problems lie. One or two others gave the impression having to speak to real customers was their worst nightmare.
Think the next meeting will be more informative. They havent promised a lot (which I actually think is better than them promising stuff they cant possibly deliver just to shut folk up for a while)so if they cant even deliver that, we may as well all pack in.
Thanks to chip and HF for their time and effort. I genuinely hope its been worth while and that something good comes of it.
If CS comes right - and betfair do begin to show good customer care and awareness - i for one, will be playing much much more on here once again.
If CS comes right - and betfair do begin to show good customer care and awareness - i for one, will be playing much much more on here once again.
To echo what chip says....
Hard to know who is actually 'in charge' of BF poker as stated above but even if I did I have signed a document to say I will not use anyones names which after the abuse Bruce Stubbs used get on here is hardly suprising.
Collusion wise it is easy to see why hardly anyone if anyone at all has been refunded, you cannot warn someone they are being watched, you may as well send just send them an email saying please withdraw your money and abandon your account before we can prove your cheating. Is it any wonder they nevcer seize any funds?
Also if you are a cheat where is the penalty to 'getting caught', where is the motivation to not open another batch of accounts in different names?
Hard to know who is actually 'in charge' of BF poker as stated above but even if I did I have signed a document to say I will not use anyones names which after the abuse Bruce Stubbs used get on here is hardly suprising.
Collusion wise it is easy to see why hardly anyone if anyone at all has been refunded, you cannot warn someone they are being watched, you may as well send just send them an email saying please withdraw your money and abandon your account before we can prove your cheating. Is it any wonder they nevcer seize any funds?
Also if you are a cheat where is the penalty to 'getting caught', where is the motivation to not open another batch of accounts in different names?
Did I seriously read that - the suspected cheats were warned not to play on the same tables??????????????????????????????
OMFG
Right, that has saved me from having to decide whether or not to play here again, that's for sure!
OMFG
Right, that has saved me from having to decide whether or not to play here again, that's for sure!
it's not only on this site, it happens on other sites also they email you warning to stop first
The problem with the "alleged" collusion in this particular instance is that if it was happening it was very subtle. These fellas were not blatantanly chip dumping, and there were never more than 3 of them at the same table at the same time that I noticed, although as many as eight and possibly more were involved in the group.
To be honest if they had not been outed, presumably by a disgruntled former group member, they would probably have still been operating to this day, and indeed they may well be but under different user names. All I will say is that these blokes played thousands of games a month ( I dont think they were BF customers ) and I can see why Ongame would be reluctant to confirm them as cheats AND issue refunds as it would cost thousands.Then again its possible that they genuinely didnt have sufficent evidence to prove collusion. We will never know.
The point we made at the meeting was that if players from other skins were stealing from BF customers and as a result causing them to stop playing, then BF should be very hacked off about it, and not just pretending all in the garden was rosy.Me and gnash used to play hundreds a month, now we play barely any, and I suspect many others have done likewise
Lets be clear about this, collusion in D2N games has been going on almost from the point these games were created. It has happened on numerous sites, including pre-Ongame Betfair, and probably always will do, and is an occupational hazard for anyone playing the wretched things. The sites wont stop running D2Ns as they have people queueing up to play them, even at 10% rake, and its a licence to print money, especially since they included them in the stt leaderboards, which to all intent and purpose was the point it became ev- to play them.
FWIW I dont think any of the other stts and mtts are suspect, so as long as you avoid D2N, you may as well play on this site as any other if you want a straight game. If people want to continue playing d2n here or anywhere else my advice would be simple, assume the game is bent until proven otherwise.
To be honest if they had not been outed, presumably by a disgruntled former group member, they would probably have still been operating to this day, and indeed they may well be but under different user names. All I will say is that these blokes played thousands of games a month ( I dont think they were BF customers ) and I can see why Ongame would be reluctant to confirm them as cheats AND issue refunds as it would cost thousands.Then again its possible that they genuinely didnt have sufficent evidence to prove collusion. We will never know.
The point we made at the meeting was that if players from other skins were stealing from BF customers and as a result causing them to stop playing, then BF should be very hacked off about it, and not just pretending all in the garden was rosy.Me and gnash used to play hundreds a month, now we play barely any, and I suspect many others have done likewise
Lets be clear about this, collusion in D2N games has been going on almost from the point these games were created. It has happened on numerous sites, including pre-Ongame Betfair, and probably always will do, and is an occupational hazard for anyone playing the wretched things. The sites wont stop running D2Ns as they have people queueing up to play them, even at 10% rake, and its a licence to print money, especially since they included them in the stt leaderboards, which to all intent and purpose was the point it became ev- to play them.
FWIW I dont think any of the other stts and mtts are suspect, so as long as you avoid D2N, you may as well play on this site as any other if you want a straight game. If people want to continue playing d2n here or anywhere else my advice would be simple, assume the game is bent until proven otherwise.
I would like to clarify that I feel the whole problem stems from Ongame but Betfair exacerbate the problem by not accepting the extent or the damage it does to them as a site.
"Then again its possible that they genuinely didnt have sufficent evidence to prove collusion. We will never know"
I can't believe that. If these players were in thousands of games, surely you can examine the stats when they played together and reach a conclusion??
Stars are / were much more proactive in doing something about the problem, a cynic would say that any site which is creaming off 10% in rake on them is very unlikely to ever take the issue seriously...
I can't believe that. If these players were in thousands of games, surely you can examine the stats when they played together and reach a conclusion??
Stars are / were much more proactive in doing something about the problem, a cynic would say that any site which is creaming off 10% in rake on them is very unlikely to ever take the issue seriously...
Oh, I've had a post removed YET AGAIN without breaching any of the forum rules. Funny but I seem to recall being told by senior staff at the Betfair Q and A session this would not be happening again in future.
Absolutely farcical, it really is . Clearly there are people who genuinely want to move this site forward and sort out the problems it has, but there are others who have well paid arses to protect and who would rather we all just went away so they could get on with the job of counting their very lucrative salaries.
I also seem to recall myself and Thrappers being told we would be free to discuss anything that arose from the meeting on the forum so long as it was factually correct. Again clearly not the case. I think I am wasting my time with this, I really do.
Absolutely farcical, it really is . Clearly there are people who genuinely want to move this site forward and sort out the problems it has, but there are others who have well paid arses to protect and who would rather we all just went away so they could get on with the job of counting their very lucrative salaries.
I also seem to recall myself and Thrappers being told we would be free to discuss anything that arose from the meeting on the forum so long as it was factually correct. Again clearly not the case. I think I am wasting my time with this, I really do.
Looks like it, despite the best of intentions.
Sadly I think you will have to accept that you are flogging a (very) dead horse.
It's not just on this forum either, I have seen dozens of posts on various forums removed despite not breaking any rules. Someone wrote something critical of Alex Fergusson and Man United, and it went in seconds. The fact that Betfair sponsor them is a complete coincedence, I am sure.
Sadly I think you will have to accept that you are flogging a (very) dead horse.
It's not just on this forum either, I have seen dozens of posts on various forums removed despite not breaking any rules. Someone wrote something critical of Alex Fergusson and Man United, and it went in seconds. The fact that Betfair sponsor them is a complete coincedence, I am sure.
They let all manner of vile crap go unchecked in the poker lobby, new players first impression of the site.
But you try to have a grown up debate on a poker forum, about something relevant and important, you do it without breaking any of the published rules, and it gets deleted because some faceless,nameless, halfwit doesn't like it. Then they wonder why people get hacked off.
Priceless.
But you try to have a grown up debate on a poker forum, about something relevant and important, you do it without breaking any of the published rules, and it gets deleted because some faceless,nameless, halfwit doesn't like it. Then they wonder why people get hacked off.
Priceless.
think u missing the point bfpr,
at your meeting only 10 days ago with chip, he was promised his postings wouldnt be removed if they didnt break any of the rules., he posted without breaking the rules, and yet it was still removed.
and u wonder why chip, and half the bfpoker community are sceptical.
at your meeting only 10 days ago with chip, he was promised his postings wouldnt be removed if they didnt break any of the rules., he posted without breaking the rules, and yet it was still removed.
and u wonder why chip, and half the bfpoker community are sceptical.
First of all, I'm happy and surprised to read this thread. Having 2 members of the poker forum being invited by BF to discuss different issues leads me to believe that they at least are now making more of an effort to help/listen to players - this is very encouraging.
Is this something that will be happening regularly semi/regularly? as we could maybe forward any questions for when you guys next go.
Is this something that will be happening regularly semi/regularly? as we could maybe forward any questions for when you guys next go.
Gnasher - I haven't missed the point. I am trying to find out what happened. Him sending me the post is a short term fix until I find out.
yoyoyoyoyoyo
We are hoping to have our two reps come back in before Christmas to discuss progress and next steps
We are hoping to have our two reps come back in before Christmas to discuss progress and next steps
chipfire post is back up!!
His banned post is below. *cue frantic scrolling
His banned post is below. *cue frantic scrolling
And what has happened to the other 20% of chipfire's observations that I think were concerning the appalling customer service and were waiting to be 'signed off'. It is eleven days now...................
Now I've calmed down, the point I was making is that D2N's are a dodgy game wherever you play them. Both gnash and myself didnt think they felt right for a few months on here at the turn of the year. However I havent seen anything untoward in any of the standard stts or the few mtts I play on BF, so those are the games i tend to stick to nowadays.
As for the Helpdesk/Customer service section of the session, if there's no feedback from BF HQ by the time the Community Tourney kicks off tomorrow, I will post what notes I have, which arent lengthy and are mostly HF having a popat people, on here. As has been said its been 10 days now and this could drag on forever.
As for the Helpdesk/Customer service section of the session, if there's no feedback from BF HQ by the time the Community Tourney kicks off tomorrow, I will post what notes I have, which arent lengthy and are mostly HF having a popat people, on here. As has been said its been 10 days now and this could drag on forever.
oh I do so miss my betfair( sorry had 2 get that out .. ) Hats off to you 3 ( our 2 and u bfpkrM at least your trying to do something positive)but you got to laugh that customer services once again are late.And would still love the nitty gritty on this player evaluation system bfpk dude Live in hope..
Annie - it was pulled because it was potentially libellous and had a magic trigger word that leads to our moderators reviewing the post. They were a little over cautious on this occasion.
help desk comments have been signed off and will go up as soon as HF and/ or Chip have time.
10 days reply from helpdesk things are improving obviously bosses at b/f poker obviously getting their house in order [;)]
Is this a big joke.
Two 'players' go to London to represent the Betfair Form and put right the problems on the site.One has publicly vowed to never play on the site again and has taken his 'business' elsewhere-and the other does not play here and posts hand histories from other sites and even when he did play here raked about 10p a week.
Then to hit the final nail in the coffin the latter gets a job with Betfair.So now the people who do pay rake on the site get to pay for this Thrapper's idiotic ramblings from the live events where his best friend Klup continues to boost his affiliate business.Jobs for the boys eh..
Betfair once again wasting their time and money on pointless PR exercises-just invest the money in making the platform stable and looking after the people that play here.
Only on Betfair folks.....
Two 'players' go to London to represent the Betfair Form and put right the problems on the site.One has publicly vowed to never play on the site again and has taken his 'business' elsewhere-and the other does not play here and posts hand histories from other sites and even when he did play here raked about 10p a week.
Then to hit the final nail in the coffin the latter gets a job with Betfair.So now the people who do pay rake on the site get to pay for this Thrapper's idiotic ramblings from the live events where his best friend Klup continues to boost his affiliate business.Jobs for the boys eh..
Betfair once again wasting their time and money on pointless PR exercises-just invest the money in making the platform stable and looking after the people that play here.
Only on Betfair folks.....
Thankyou punterz/fingerzzz for your kind words as always your diplomacy and class shines through!
I do still play quite regularly on the site and yes I am a 10 bob raker and a tramp and yes I ramble like an idiot but some people seem to quite like my idiotic ramblings!
Anyway I know I represented the views of the forum the best it could have been done and certainly didn't let any future work from Betfair get in the way but obviously you will scoff at this as it doesn't fit your agenda!
I do still play quite regularly on the site and yes I am a 10 bob raker and a tramp and yes I ramble like an idiot but some people seem to quite like my idiotic ramblings!
Anyway I know I represented the views of the forum the best it could have been done and certainly didn't let any future work from Betfair get in the way but obviously you will scoff at this as it doesn't fit your agenda!
Finally the Heldesk/Customer Service section :
Helpdesk
( CHIP )This was a particularly tough session as the guy in charge of the Helpdesk was on a video conferencing call. While he accepted there were issues I dont think he was aware of just how bad things are, though we didn’t hesitate in enlightening him. Apart from outages he stated their main volume of work was handling complaints about bonuses, leaderboards, and the Players Club. What was agreed was that it wasn't really helpful if players were by-passing the Helpdesk and using BF Poker PR to solve problems. What they have said is that they want specific examples of poor customer service over the next couple of months from people who have reported an issue to the Helpdesk. Essentially if they dont sort your problem out, raise it on the forum by sending me or HF a PM. Ideally we want times/dates, who you spoke to/corresponded with, deatils of what the issue was and what happened after youcontacted them, and it will then go straight to management to find out where there was a breakdown. They have also agreed to post updates on the forum as soon as an issue arises, and also notify us of the fix.
(HF)The help desk manager got the hardest time off me I think but did seem open to criticism although as Chip says I don’t think he understands how bad a reputation his department had. His eagerness to get examples does give me hope and I suggest rather than filling the forum with complaints if the people with examples could PM us and we could put them together and send them to him directly. I especially want to hear about not getting promised responses so if you get no replies or phone calls you were promised then these are easy to chase up any staffs that are 'ignoring' us.
Helpdesk to deliver
· Review queries submitted by forumites in private messages (to chip and HF)
· Use this feedback to plug any gaps in staff knowledge
· Establish internal SLAs for query resolution lead times by category, eg. tournaments, promotions etc.
· Post on the forum when outages occur, and post again afterwards to inform users that the site is up and running.
Helpdesk
( CHIP )This was a particularly tough session as the guy in charge of the Helpdesk was on a video conferencing call. While he accepted there were issues I dont think he was aware of just how bad things are, though we didn’t hesitate in enlightening him. Apart from outages he stated their main volume of work was handling complaints about bonuses, leaderboards, and the Players Club. What was agreed was that it wasn't really helpful if players were by-passing the Helpdesk and using BF Poker PR to solve problems. What they have said is that they want specific examples of poor customer service over the next couple of months from people who have reported an issue to the Helpdesk. Essentially if they dont sort your problem out, raise it on the forum by sending me or HF a PM. Ideally we want times/dates, who you spoke to/corresponded with, deatils of what the issue was and what happened after youcontacted them, and it will then go straight to management to find out where there was a breakdown. They have also agreed to post updates on the forum as soon as an issue arises, and also notify us of the fix.
(HF)The help desk manager got the hardest time off me I think but did seem open to criticism although as Chip says I don’t think he understands how bad a reputation his department had. His eagerness to get examples does give me hope and I suggest rather than filling the forum with complaints if the people with examples could PM us and we could put them together and send them to him directly. I especially want to hear about not getting promised responses so if you get no replies or phone calls you were promised then these are easy to chase up any staffs that are 'ignoring' us.
Helpdesk to deliver
· Review queries submitted by forumites in private messages (to chip and HF)
· Use this feedback to plug any gaps in staff knowledge
· Establish internal SLAs for query resolution lead times by category, eg. tournaments, promotions etc.
· Post on the forum when outages occur, and post again afterwards to inform users that the site is up and running.
Cheers for your efforts Thrappers and Chipfire. Ignore the haters
Over the past 4 years of using the helpdesk my issues and questions have always been resolved in a few hours or in the same day I had the issue..
So it's not everyone having to wait days and days for a response..
So it's not everyone having to wait days and days for a response..
still trying to work out which one is the chubby scarecrow and which one is the debt collector
I'm only slightly chubby !!!! The scarecrow bit is fair comment, especially aseveryone there was wearing shirts that probably cost a million pounds.
I've never had any problems with the helpdesk either Bruce
So the big question is did you find it productive? It kind of reminds me of a council meeting they had in Toronto recently. The city announced that it was going to close libraries, contract out garbage and make some other decisions which many in the public opposed. So they offered to let the public come to a meeting to air their concerns. Over 80 people spoke keeping councillors there for a day while they told their sob stories, concerns and reasons why things should remain. Council listened to every one of them and as soon as the meeting was over and the public left they took a vote and made all the changes they planned to anyways.
The meeting was a big sham and served no purpose other than to make the "public" feel like they were part of the decisions.
You expressed concerns with the essence program and they effectively said "yeah, ok but we're keeping it anyways"
You expressed concerns with the MTT leaderboard and they said "yeah I hear you but we really don't care we're dumping it."
etc.
The meeting was a big sham and served no purpose other than to make the "public" feel like they were part of the decisions.
You expressed concerns with the essence program and they effectively said "yeah, ok but we're keeping it anyways"
You expressed concerns with the MTT leaderboard and they said "yeah I hear you but we really don't care we're dumping it."
etc.
I dont have an issue with them doing things per se, as long as they explain the rationale behind those decisions, which is where things have broken down in the past.
People weren't exclusively asking for Essence to be scrapped, they wanted to know why it was introduced, and more importantly how the blinking thing worked.
An MTT leaderboard would be great, as would meatier promotions. But as they explained they have a limited pot of money and it has to be spent where they feel they will get the most value. They pointed out a lot of promotions involving cash and stt players end in a MTT final which gives the good MTT players an advantage. Take the current footie shirt promo for example. Every man and his dog should have a ticket for the games next week, you could get the ticket playing exclusively cash games, but to win the SHIRT you have to CASH IN a MTT.
The site is not going to magically fix itself overnight, it will take a lot of time and effort, AND input from the players. Will the current lot do any better at running the thing than the previous lot ? Who can say, but at least some of them seem to want to do something about it.Certainly what they have planned for the Community Game on a Wednesday night has incorporated what people were asking for.
People weren't exclusively asking for Essence to be scrapped, they wanted to know why it was introduced, and more importantly how the blinking thing worked.
An MTT leaderboard would be great, as would meatier promotions. But as they explained they have a limited pot of money and it has to be spent where they feel they will get the most value. They pointed out a lot of promotions involving cash and stt players end in a MTT final which gives the good MTT players an advantage. Take the current footie shirt promo for example. Every man and his dog should have a ticket for the games next week, you could get the ticket playing exclusively cash games, but to win the SHIRT you have to CASH IN a MTT.
The site is not going to magically fix itself overnight, it will take a lot of time and effort, AND input from the players. Will the current lot do any better at running the thing than the previous lot ? Who can say, but at least some of them seem to want to do something about it.Certainly what they have planned for the Community Game on a Wednesday night has incorporated what people were asking for.
of course betfair want to keep essence lol! So the guys who get a bigger proportion of the rake attributed to them are probably on the lower tiers of vip club getting 10%rbor somthing stupid, so no instead of paying out 40% to every reg and 10% to fish they now pay out 20-30% to regs and 13% to fish maybe! Yep sounds like a winner for betfair :-)
I think i got about 12% rb this month on a 40% deal and lost like 3k£!! How does this system workthen betfair?????
I think i got about 12% rb this month on a 40% deal and lost like 3k£!! How does this system workthen betfair?????
spackers a 28% drop sounds horrific. is this sort of figure a one -off due to a freak winning month or something you have seen happening over the longer term ?
would be really interested to hear more as neither myself or HF had played enough cash games for us to provide a counter argument at the meeting.
would be really interested to hear more as neither myself or HF had played enough cash games for us to provide a counter argument at the meeting.
I think this would be a good example to take to betfair and get some sort of explanation.
Spackers you have me on MSN so you have my email address so send me all the relevant details and I will chase it up for you and hopefully get some form of explanation about how you can lose so much cakeback.
Spackers you have me on MSN so you have my email address so send me all the relevant details and I will chase it up for you and hopefully get some form of explanation about how you can lose so much cakeback.
think u willfind what spackers says is fairly accurate.
ongame admitted as much at the gambing fair /conference early this year.
can b as much as 90/10the split if a top player isin potv a big fish.
jessie may also wrote an intrasting arcticle about essence in poker player mag about 6 issues ago.
ongame admitted as much at the gambing fair /conference early this year.
can b as much as 90/10the split if a top player isin potv a big fish.
jessie may also wrote an intrasting arcticle about essence in poker player mag about 6 issues ago.
The trouble with essence is the lack of transparency and how do you go about checking its correct
I understand the principle and its fine, however I would like to know have betfair paid out more or less rake and how do we know our cake is correct
I understand the principle and its fine, however I would like to know have betfair paid out more or less rake and how do we know our cake is correct
sorry that should be
The trouble with essence is the lack of transparency and how do you go about checking its correct
I understand the principle and its fine, however I would like to know have betfair paid out more or less rake (since the introduction of essence) and how do we know our cake is correct
The trouble with essence is the lack of transparency and how do you go about checking its correct
I understand the principle and its fine, however I would like to know have betfair paid out more or less rake (since the introduction of essence) and how do we know our cake is correct
sorry that should be
The trouble with essence is the lack of transparency and how do you go about checking its correct
I understand the principle and its fine, however I would like to know have betfair paid out more or less rake (since the introduction of essence) and how do we know our cake is correct
The trouble with essence is the lack of transparency and how do you go about checking its correct
I understand the principle and its fine, however I would like to know have betfair paid out more or less rake (since the introduction of essence) and how do we know our cake is correct
Surely if they want to protect fish, wouldn't it make sense to ban hem and sharkscope?
i wish they would ban hem and alike.
it would b much more of a game of skill again.online poker aint a skill game of cards any more, its who can read data better and transfer that to makin the right decision.
it would b much more of a game of skill again.online poker aint a skill game of cards any more, its who can read data better and transfer that to makin the right decision.
ok so i got more than i thought raked minimum 585£ (could be more as i mighta plyed on other comp but cant reemember) and i got 125quid rb! so thats about 20% rb... Now that would be ok if i was winning alot but i havent been! And i dont mind the system one bit if i have a great month then next month i dont get much rb, but i want it to work the other way when i lose 3k£!
Also its a bit bs really because numerous times there will be 6 regs, all of which probably win a bit. Now i imagine there system doesnt alter depending on whos at the table! so in theory i should be always near 40% rb when its 6regs! But i bet i dont LOL!!!!
Also its a bit bs really because numerous times there will be 6 regs, all of which probably win a bit. Now i imagine there system doesnt alter depending on whos at the table! so in theory i should be always near 40% rb when its 6regs! But i bet i dont LOL!!!!
keith 100% betfair will have paid out less rb! So this huge fish loses each time he plays his 1 table 1 hour a week. Which puts him on the lowestt vipclub level! So i guess thats like 10%rb maybe.... And to justify that all the regs get 10-15% less :-) classic. Basically the extra money the fish should get goes to betfair lol!
Why all the cloak and dagger over the cakeback? If you have money being paid into your account then surely you have a legal right to know why and also how this money was calculated! I do not know much about the legal in's and out's but one would think that you have some sort of rights in this matter!
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