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anfeild
13 Nov 09 12:52
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Date Joined: 30 Sep 04
| Topic/replies: 2,720 | Blogger: anfeild's blog
Playing live last night. Ten left. Nine paid. I have 30,000 blinds are 1000 2000. Average stack is around 20,000. 88 runners(2500 starting ***** Guy in first position moves all in for 17000. Im on bb with aq. Called and lost to 55. Think it was the correct call as if i win that sitting well for final table.
Pause Switch to Standard View Is this a call.
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Report Mavis "Hacksaw" Handbag November 13, 2009 12:53 PM GMT
Yes, unless a very very unusual payoiut structure and/or he was a complete nit who u knew was intending to fold to the money.
Report Never In Doubt November 13, 2009 12:54 PM GMT
What? This is a fold isnt it? ANd just raise the next hand
Report Aspro November 13, 2009 1:00 PM GMT
Not enough information about the raiser; loose player then probably a slight favourite, good or tight player, then probably an underdog meaning you should fold. HTH :)
Report chop180 November 13, 2009 1:02 PM GMT
Were you on the final table, or was it one of two tables of 5?

If it's the former, an easy fold for me. If the latter, probably a call.
Report chop180 November 13, 2009 1:03 PM GMT
Sorry, didnt read the last bit. Call for me then.
Report Aspro November 13, 2009 1:03 PM GMT
although, after the cards are shown it shows he is probably a bit loose but the decision is based on the play leading up to that moment. Either way I'd probably fold... I'd rather be the raiser than the caller for over half my stack.
Report anfeild November 13, 2009 1:04 PM GMT
He was a solid player from what id seen. My thinking was there was 20000 in the pot 14000 to win 20000. Just around 1.5/1. I taught he might have some weak ace or a medium pocket pair. Ruled out aa kk as i think he might just raise to 7000 to get a call. Anyway had decided to try and get *****for the final table as any time i do make a final table i seem to limp there.
Report anfeild November 13, 2009 1:05 PM GMT
Sorry meant to say 10 left final table of 9.
Report Never In Doubt November 13, 2009 1:06 PM GMT
Yeah what we are trying to establish is whether it is 10 handed with 9 paid or two tables of 5
Report chop180 November 13, 2009 1:07 PM GMT
It's okay, the last few words made that clear. Can't possibly fold that if you are in the bb.
Report Rowland Browning November 13, 2009 1:08 PM GMT
shirley a call.
fold and you continue to limp to the money
call and lose and you continue to limp to the money
call and win and youre in pos to ensure a podium finish.
Report Aspro November 13, 2009 1:09 PM GMT
An apparent solid player making a move utg... not sure I'd be calling with AQ tbf but each to their own. Great game eh?
Report anfeild November 13, 2009 1:12 PM GMT
Yeah i think the call was correct. Just hard playing for five hours to lose a coin flip. Finished 9th. Suppose you have to win races at the end to win tournaments. Cheers for the replies.
Report Never In Doubt November 13, 2009 1:12 PM GMT
You arent racing on your terms
Report anfeild November 13, 2009 1:13 PM GMT
He was a solid player but five handed and he only had just over 5 bb so that narrows his range.
Report Six of Clubs November 13, 2009 1:15 PM GMT
think its a reasonable enough call, generally you are flipping or dominating him. if you are unlucky enough to run into AK, that will balance out imo as his range for shoving should also be AJ, AT, maybe KQ.
if its 9 paid its usually fairly flat 9th-6th so why not try and build a stack.
Report Aspro November 13, 2009 1:15 PM GMT
I'm not knocking the call at all anfeild; nothing wrong there to find yourself in a race but against the popular decision here I think I'd have let it go. Fair point though.
Report Never In Doubt November 13, 2009 1:21 PM GMT
He has 8.5BB This isnt as clear cut as it looks
Report anfeild November 13, 2009 1:23 PM GMT
17000 blinds 1000 2000. I taught that makes his m around 5.5. Thats what i meant.
Report chop180 November 13, 2009 1:35 PM GMT
His range for shoving with 8.5bbs on a 5 handed table should be a heck of a lot more than AT & KQ+ imo.
Report Never In Doubt November 13, 2009 1:37 PM GMT
Yes it should be
Report richpickns November 13, 2009 1:45 PM GMT
defo fold for me - think about the hands you beat and the hands u lose to considering he is pushing under the gun

hands you beat - aj/a10/ace rag, kq, kj and its fair to say this is an optimistic range
hands you loose to - and other he raises with
Report Dooberama November 13, 2009 1:50 PM GMT
nah, is an easy call. Only AK, AA, KK and QQ really beat you and with at least 3 of these he does something re tarded like limp or min raise as he is a live donk.

that is before you realise it is 5 handed and you have him covered.
Report Never In Doubt November 13, 2009 1:53 PM GMT
LOL good thread seriously
Report chop180 November 13, 2009 2:07 PM GMT
"hands you beat - aj/a10/ace rag, kq, kj and its fair to say this is an optimistic range"

Cobblers.
Report 1hearts November 13, 2009 2:16 PM GMT
It's a gambling call. You are probably 50/50 but could be in far better. Unlikley he has massive hand. If your up for the gamble it's a call. As said though, you could wait be the raiser.
Report joffy November 13, 2009 2:18 PM GMT
Call without even thinking abt it for me
Report Six of Clubs November 13, 2009 2:21 PM GMT
ok just reread op and realised its a 5 seater. call every day of the week and twice on sunday.
based my original answer on 10 seater and i think thats a call.
Report Never In Doubt November 13, 2009 2:22 PM GMT
Live solid player this is NOT a call 10 handed
Report Six of Clubs November 13, 2009 2:25 PM GMT
if by solid you mean tight then maybe not, but if by solid you mean decent and playing properly, ie trying to build up a stack then i reckon you are only behind to AK,
Report joffy November 13, 2009 2:27 PM GMT
Isnt yr call 15k by the way not that I thought about
Report chop180 November 13, 2009 2:29 PM GMT
10 handed it's debatable, 5 handed it isn't.
Report Six of Clubs November 13, 2009 2:33 PM GMT
its debatable but strak is still a gayer
Report FFsmd November 13, 2009 2:34 PM GMT
If this call was for my tourney life,then i would concider how nitty he had been,but as its not then iam snapping him off no matter how nitty he has been so far.
Report Mavis "Hacksaw" Handbag November 13, 2009 2:38 PM GMT
Strak you NIT! :D



Hold on there I have another hand which I'm about to post...
Report richpickns November 13, 2009 2:57 PM GMT
its 10 handed not 5 handed - 5 left insta call 10 left fold

'your only behind to AK' - yeh and any pair
Report Mavis "Hacksaw" Handbag November 13, 2009 3:26 PM GMT
Ok fellas - here's another one for ye:

18 man, $16 stt, I have been multi tabling these over the past few days just cause I fancied some donk poker.

Down to last 5. 4 paid. payouts are $27, $54, $71, $108.

Seifer Gomez (the CL)'s shoving range is any two cards based on previous hands.


PokerStars Game #35201428013: Tournament #211511925, $15+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2009/11/11 3:38:21 ET
Table '211511925 1' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 4: MavisHandbag (3800 in *****
Seat 5: Xaviola83 (2805 in *****
Seat 7: Seifer Gomez (15140 in *****

Seat 8: storms32 (230 in ***** is sitting out
Seat 9: youbetchaya (5025 in *****
MavisHandbag: posts the ante 25
Xaviola83: posts the ante 25
Seifer Gomez: posts the ante 25
storms32: posts the ante 25
youbetchaya: posts the ante 25
youbetchaya: posts small blind 200
MavisHandbag: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MavisHandbag [Ac Ks]
Xaviola83: folds
Seifer Gomez: raises 4800 to 5200
storms32: folds
youbetchaya: folds
MavisHandbag: ??
Report Mavis "Hacksaw" Handbag November 13, 2009 3:27 PM GMT
sorry - note the guy on TWO HUNDRED *****who has been SITTING OUT for the last 20 or so hands.
Report joffy November 13, 2009 3:27 PM GMT
Jam
Report Keith A November 13, 2009 3:34 PM GMT
1 Call every time for me

Mavos - This may be one of the very few times when you are better off folding AK
Report chop180 November 13, 2009 3:36 PM GMT
For me it would depend on the other players, ie how easily can you nick their blinds uncontested.
Report anfeild November 13, 2009 3:49 PM GMT
I may have folded if i was not in the big blind. There was 3000 in the middle. Plus his 17000. 20000. I have 14000 to win 20000. Just under 1.5 to 1. I think to win or go deep it was the correct call. Next blind level was 2000 4000. The tournament is a weird struture. 2500 starting with 30 min blinds for 3 levels. Then 20 mins after break. Average stack at the time was 2000. Which is less the m=7. So i think the call was correct. But was tempted to fold as could have done with the money.
Report Jim Hensen November 13, 2009 3:50 PM GMT
Jam,

lose $16 or have a decent shot at $108. I assume CL will not change his approach much if you double up?
Report richpickns November 13, 2009 4:03 PM GMT
defo allin for me - i wdnt fold that hand at that stage to any player never mind a very loose one
Report Mavis "Hacksaw" Handbag November 13, 2009 4:04 PM GMT
I am not quite so sure calling is mathematicall correct long term tho is it?
Report Aspro November 13, 2009 4:06 PM GMT
Fold again for me Mavis; I've been in that position a few times and still won outright by folding drawing hands to a bully. 6 left and still work to be done then I call and again when the bubble is gone but in that situation, I can wait.
Report Never In Doubt November 13, 2009 4:09 PM GMT
Calling is in no way correct even if he turns over A2 maths wise
Report Dooberama November 13, 2009 4:09 PM GMT
Mavis has spent way too much time playing double or nothings obv.
Report richpickns November 13, 2009 4:16 PM GMT
lol
Report joffy November 13, 2009 4:20 PM GMT
Anfield its been a long day but isnt yr call 15k. Hes shoved 17k and yr BB is 2k
Report Mavis "Hacksaw" Handbag November 13, 2009 4:41 PM GMT
this is close doobs surely

what's your move then?
Report Mavis "Hacksaw" Handbag November 13, 2009 4:53 PM GMT
At the time i thought my calling range would need tp be like 99+ and then AJ+ or something similar.

The slightly odd payout (27-54-81-108) and the fact the CL was a donk did get me thinking though. Oh and I had been running bad as well. roffle
Report FFsmd November 13, 2009 4:54 PM GMT
Its a fold ev wise AA is only hand you can call here.
If your playing a load of these and making money in the long run is your aim, then no choice fold fold fold.

If your just playing 1 or 2 a every now and again for fun, then i guess a call is ok. but its a losing play.
Report Dooberama November 13, 2009 4:57 PM GMT
It may well be close, but I can't bring myself to fold or work it out Mavo.

Somebody open shoved on the button for 40 BBs on the final table of the $50 rebuy on ip oker the other day. He had 400k, there were 3 of us on about 200K, and I think 5 others on 100K to 150K.

I was in the SB with AK, $15K for first and $900 for 9th, though probably doesn't go up much until about 4th.

This is insta call isn't it?
Report FFsmd November 13, 2009 5:01 PM GMT
yes Doobs snap call, but the diff is that in mtts we have so many more buyins to gain , but in stts the diff between cashing and winning is alot less.
Report joffy November 13, 2009 5:06 PM GMT
Yep if yr grinding these day after day then got to agree.

As i cldnt do that i call every time.
Report Mavis "Hacksaw" Handbag November 13, 2009 5:07 PM GMT
well i've just ICM'd it ffsmd (I guess u did the same?) , and it's coming up with a far wider range:

http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/icmcalculator.html?action=calculate&bb=400&sb=200&ante=40&structure=37.5%2C28.125%2C18.75%2C9.375&s1=2805&s2=15140&s3=0&s4=5025&s5=3800&s6=&s7=&s8=&s9=


PU CA OC Range
UTG 15.2%, 22+ A7s+ A5s-A4s ATo+ K9s+ KQo QTs+ JTs
CO 7.2%, 77+ AJs+ AJo+
BU 100.0%, Any two
SB 1.4%, QQ+
BB 1.8%, JJ+
BU 100.0%, Any two
SB 8.0%, 66+ ATs+ AJo+
BB 8.4%, 55+ ATs+ AJo+
SB 7.2%, 77+ AJs+ AJo+
BB 2.6%, TT+ AKs
BB 8.9%, 66+ ATs+ ATo+
CO 100.0%, Any two
BU 100.0%, Any two
SB 2.3%, TT+
BB 3.2%, 88+
SB 2.3%, TT+
BB 0.9%, KK+
BB 8.6%, 66+ A9s+ AJo+ KQs ------ calling range if CO shoves
BU 100.0%, Any two
SB 100.0%, Any two
BB 9.8%, 66+ A9s+ ATo+ KJs+
BB 100.0%, Any two
SB 100.0%, Any two
BB 22.6%, 55+ A3s+ A5o+ K8s+ K9o+ QTs+ QJo



(I put the sitting out guy in with 1 chip and then 0 *****and it comes up as the same)
Report Mavis "Hacksaw" Handbag November 13, 2009 5:11 PM GMT
see, i knew this hand would be a close one.
Report FFsmd November 13, 2009 5:17 PM GMT
ive checked many sim type hands b4 so didnt check this one kk in their suprised in a 9 seater prob just AA as i said, i guess thats the diff when 1st is more buyins to win
Report Rowland Browning November 13, 2009 5:19 PM GMT
i defo fold mavis's hand
Report FFsmd November 13, 2009 5:21 PM GMT
I would assume that as shorty is sat out,then folding is a bigger premium as he will never play a hand by choice even if hes delt AA or will not call in situations when he has *****left but should.So his road to recovery is rocky to say the lest.
Report FFsmd November 13, 2009 5:27 PM GMT
Just ran it sng whizz gives you QQ+
Report Six of Clubs November 13, 2009 5:35 PM GMT
i agree with mavis
Report FFsmd November 13, 2009 5:40 PM GMT
Cant help myself, so checked a few ranges,as although its fine for him to ship any2 not all players do.

if we give him 50% it changes to kk+
and 40% to just AA so in these situations obv dont assume all players know to ship any2
Report Mavis "Hacksaw" Handbag November 13, 2009 9:49 PM GMT
no, but this player deffo does ship any 2, he was playing way loose when we were still on 2 tables and seemed a bit monkey tilt ish actually, just a hyper aggro maniac lol. i quite like that style tho!

he'd already been open shoving the past few hands hence his stack.

quite a close one here then, i guess what with everything considered, it's so marginal it probably hardly matters what you do in the long run. it's not exactly gonna happen very often is it, you'd need like 1000 situations to see any sort of difference anyway!

Maybe it's better to assess the tiltability of losing/winning - if ur gonna tilt if u lose then fold, if u really don't tilt then call cause u like standing up for urself!

Oh btw obv I called and lost to 94o or something but I think that was pretty obvious!
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