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From the start I've always thought that the set-up concerning the League and All Ireland was wrong. I can't think of another organised sport where anything other than a league system is used to establish the champion team. The best team proves its credentials by being consistently good over the long term. Then as an adjunct a Cup knockout competition is usually attached to bring a different type of colour and the excitement of shocks ,giant-killing results etc...plus should the league winners win the cup as well they copperfasten their right to be hailed as the top team. The dismissal of the league in GAA as only a warm-up 'blooding 'exercise for the AI makes no sense to me.
Then to pile farce on nonsense -the GAA bring in the qualifier/back door system. So we see the spectacle where a team has to play a team it has beaten before a second time .So we see where Cork ,who beat Waterford in the Munster final, now have to play them again ..and if they lose -it's the second result that counts as decisive. Why should that be ?
What if e.g. a team that won the first match had the bad luck to have 2 star players injured and unavailable for the second match and lost -how would that be any way fair ?
Since we're stuck with this ridiculous arrangement -I would suggest that the result in a rematch situation should be on the aggregate score .
Then to pile farce on nonsense -the GAA bring in the qualifier/back door system. So we see the spectacle where a team has to play a team it has beaten before a second time .So we see where Cork ,who beat Waterford in the Munster final, now have to play them again ..and if they lose -it's the second result that counts as decisive. Why should that be ?
What if e.g. a team that won the first match had the bad luck to have 2 star players injured and unavailable for the second match and lost -how would that be any way fair ?
Since we're stuck with this ridiculous arrangement -I would suggest that the result in a rematch situation should be on the aggregate score .
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Would have to disagree Vubiant. look what Tipp were doing to the rubbish under league conditions this year, for one.
Champions League and World Cup in football are knock-out competitions. Leagues often favour flat-track bullies, Champions League and World Cup knock-out stages are where it is at in football; top players delivering on the big occasion when needed most. It demands character, not this Stoke on a wet Tuesday night bullsh*t. What top player has ever ever failed to fill their boots against lesser teams? none, leagues 99% of the time only serve to tell us what we already know, the only exception would be European Super League in soccer.
The best teams having been winning the World Cup and champions League in recent seasons as well.
Uncompetitive leagues, which is what the Gaelic Football league would be with only 4 competitive teams, are utterly tedious with top players filling their boots against rubbish.
Alex Ferguson had many fine teams that had great success in league competition, but it is indisputable that his best team was the 08' Champions league winning side followed by his Champions League winning side in 99'.
Prime Barcelona put up their best performances in their Champions League winning years as well, 09' and 11'.
The GAA also does not have the fanbase to support a sustained league competition, as the super 8's will show next season. there are also the club players to consider, who get royally fcked over.
Champions League and World Cup in football are knock-out competitions. Leagues often favour flat-track bullies, Champions League and World Cup knock-out stages are where it is at in football; top players delivering on the big occasion when needed most. It demands character, not this Stoke on a wet Tuesday night bullsh*t. What top player has ever ever failed to fill their boots against lesser teams? none, leagues 99% of the time only serve to tell us what we already know, the only exception would be European Super League in soccer.
The best teams having been winning the World Cup and champions League in recent seasons as well.
Uncompetitive leagues, which is what the Gaelic Football league would be with only 4 competitive teams, are utterly tedious with top players filling their boots against rubbish.
Alex Ferguson had many fine teams that had great success in league competition, but it is indisputable that his best team was the 08' Champions league winning side followed by his Champions League winning side in 99'.
Prime Barcelona put up their best performances in their Champions League winning years as well, 09' and 11'.
The GAA also does not have the fanbase to support a sustained league competition, as the super 8's will show next season. there are also the club players to consider, who get royally fcked over.
NFL, NBA, Ice Hockey in the US, all conclude with a cup competition, have a final.
Ask Federer would he rather be world number one after winning 10 ATP wheelbarrow jobs in Dubai, or would he rather win a knock out Grandslam?
Race to Dubai? my bollocks, its all about the standalone majors in Golf.
Asking teams to peak 38 times a season to play rubbish is actually competition that has it wrong I'd have said. Watch Lukaku hit 30 goals this season mostly against botton half teams, and then watch how Sergio Ramos or Vincent Kompany handles him when it actually counts. League competitions alone fill TV schedules and create a ball of useless irrelevant statistics and false achievements to my mind.
A sports person can show consistency by coming back year on year and winning the big competitions, not by beating Burnley and Huddersfield or smashing a below par field off somewhere hot and sandy.
Ask Federer would he rather be world number one after winning 10 ATP wheelbarrow jobs in Dubai, or would he rather win a knock out Grandslam?
Race to Dubai? my bollocks, its all about the standalone majors in Golf.
Asking teams to peak 38 times a season to play rubbish is actually competition that has it wrong I'd have said. Watch Lukaku hit 30 goals this season mostly against botton half teams, and then watch how Sergio Ramos or Vincent Kompany handles him when it actually counts. League competitions alone fill TV schedules and create a ball of useless irrelevant statistics and false achievements to my mind.
A sports person can show consistency by coming back year on year and winning the big competitions, not by beating Burnley and Huddersfield or smashing a below par field off somewhere hot and sandy.
What a barrage of examples there neill d -I don't think I can possibly match your encyclopaedic knowledge and capacious memory and won't try.
Just a few points to try to get myself up off the canvas after your ferocious onslaught...
- many of the exx you mention where there is a knock-out element at least have a league structure foundation to do some winnowing out
-Dealing with your 'Stoke on a wet Tuesday night' scene is precisely what demands character of a team ..i.e. meeting different kinds of challenge and conditions and grinding it out where necessary
-Not entirely sure about comparing team and individual sports -I was concerned only with the team aspect
-I appreciate it won't happen ,but if a serious league structure were to come into being in the GAA -of course it would need careful planning wrt to how many sections ,when start and finish ,how mesh with the club sector etc.
-whatever about that there are imbalances in the AI provincial set-up-with 4 unequal groups of 5,6,9 and 12 -at least in football.
Plus in hurling -e.g.in Munster depending on the draw some teams need to win 3 matches to be provincial champions and others only 2.
Many of the points you made are compelling and unanswerable and I cede you the victory so to speak.
You did not address my point about the qualifier system rematch issue -do you have any thoughts on that ?
Just a few points to try to get myself up off the canvas after your ferocious onslaught...
- many of the exx you mention where there is a knock-out element at least have a league structure foundation to do some winnowing out
-Dealing with your 'Stoke on a wet Tuesday night' scene is precisely what demands character of a team ..i.e. meeting different kinds of challenge and conditions and grinding it out where necessary
-Not entirely sure about comparing team and individual sports -I was concerned only with the team aspect
-I appreciate it won't happen ,but if a serious league structure were to come into being in the GAA -of course it would need careful planning wrt to how many sections ,when start and finish ,how mesh with the club sector etc.
-whatever about that there are imbalances in the AI provincial set-up-with 4 unequal groups of 5,6,9 and 12 -at least in football.
Plus in hurling -e.g.in Munster depending on the draw some teams need to win 3 matches to be provincial champions and others only 2.
Many of the points you made are compelling and unanswerable and I cede you the victory so to speak.
You did not address my point about the qualifier system rematch issue -do you have any thoughts on that ?
I should probably have prefaced what I was saying with "this is what I value", really, Vubiant, and while I would say what you'd suggest is inherently fairer because everybody gets the same, I just love the cut and thrust of knockout competition!
I'd prefer the Championship hurling to be knockout, Vubiant, and for the league to run concurrently and have the whole lot wrapped up by mid August and let the club lads get on with it. Inter county hurlers wouldn't play club league so the club guys could play that off. The championship gates, atmosphere quality of game would go through the roof. I agree cork having to do it again with Waterford is nonsense.
The time players put in, its unlikely I guess and they look to be driving where the thing is going. I've never understood the devaluing of the league myself.
The wet night at Stoke thing is not a different type of challenge, but an inferior one and the Arsenal teams for example, that failed there, failed on the big night when it was.
I'd prefer the Championship hurling to be knockout, Vubiant, and for the league to run concurrently and have the whole lot wrapped up by mid August and let the club lads get on with it. Inter county hurlers wouldn't play club league so the club guys could play that off. The championship gates, atmosphere quality of game would go through the roof. I agree cork having to do it again with Waterford is nonsense.
The time players put in, its unlikely I guess and they look to be driving where the thing is going. I've never understood the devaluing of the league myself.
The wet night at Stoke thing is not a different type of challenge, but an inferior one and the Arsenal teams for example, that failed there, failed on the big night when it was.
...put to them in Champions League.
There have been some great battles for the league and it can be enjoyable watching great teams put on clinics as well, showing they can beat all kinds. Football (soccer) has the balance right between leagues and cups imo
There have been some great battles for the league and it can be enjoyable watching great teams put on clinics as well, showing they can beat all kinds. Football (soccer) has the balance right between leagues and cups imo
I agree with the OP
In GAA the All ireland championship is essentially a cup competition to decide who are the national champions !!
They whole structure is so outdated... it has hardly been changed in 135 years...
In GAA the All ireland championship is essentially a cup competition to decide who are the national champions !!
They whole structure is so outdated... it has hardly been changed in 135 years...
Think the weather has to be a factor,really only 4 months or so of what should be decent,maybe the league is sacrified for the supposedly bad weather?
Very much against the "back door" system as well,it often gives a beaten team an advantage in that they play more,you would have to be cynical and say whoever thought that up that it was for money reasons.
Slightly off topic but ties in with the last point and my main gripe,is 10 minutes extra time should be allowed if a draw,is it fair for people to travel again? It wa schronic watching last Sundays match and that ref playing for the draw.
Very much against the "back door" system as well,it often gives a beaten team an advantage in that they play more,you would have to be cynical and say whoever thought that up that it was for money reasons.
Slightly off topic but ties in with the last point and my main gripe,is 10 minutes extra time should be allowed if a draw,is it fair for people to travel again? It wa schronic watching last Sundays match and that ref playing for the draw.
Obviously never been to Thurles on Munster Final day ... Never been to anything better.
Is it even in doubt that money rules the gas now a days. The biggest disgrace is Galway playing hurling in Leinster. Plenty of decent Wexford hurlers could now have a medal to show for their work if that farce had not been allowed.
It should be open 32 team draw. The provincials except Munster hurling and Ulster football mean zero.
It should be open 32 team draw. The provincials except Munster hurling and Ulster football mean zero.
The back door does nothing for me.
The league is a winter sport.
The players are still amateurs.
I would prefer a tiered system similar to the FA cup with the early rounds beginning near the end of the league programme and the seeded counties joining in the later"rounds" after the league finals in a open draw format.
I still want All Ireland quarter finals and as the premier trophy.
The league is a winter sport.
The players are still amateurs.
I would prefer a tiered system similar to the FA cup with the early rounds beginning near the end of the league programme and the seeded counties joining in the later"rounds" after the league finals in a open draw format.
I still want All Ireland quarter finals and as the premier trophy.
As great as provincials finals can be,they are pretty much over now.
intresting thread. the recent(relatively)change of structure in the league had enhanced it hugely and i think its slowly becoming more relevant as teams are playing other teams of similar standard and it makes for good close games. as for the championship,the provincial system is outdated and unfair in the extreme to a huge number of countys. take clare,tipp,limerick,or waterford footballers for example.they know that the other 2 teams in munster have been consistently top 6 since the gaa began.and due to the urgings of that most enlightened clare man robert frost who brought in seeding they would have to beat both to win munster.then with the back door ,more than likely meet one of them again if you progressed.so its near impossible with a small population of players in the 4 dual countys..and this super 8 thingy year will be a disaster.. and as for hurling i agree with vubliant about cork having to beat waterford twice but thats the way it is at the moment..as for aggregate scoring thats a ridiculous idea. the "leinster" hurling championship also is farcical with teams from the 4 provinces competing(galway.antrim,and kerry as well as the natives!!).but no one seems to think theres anything unusual about it,so we are where we are with it..best games in the world but sadly a lot of structural and admin problems..
The back door has certainly devalued the provincials in hurling. I think the provincial championships should either be scrapped or alternatively incorporated into an early season league which might see Munster teams in one group and the rest in the other(hurling only). This could decide provincial champions, an overall league champion and provide eight teams (four from each group) to progress to All-Ireland quarter finals. This would make the league competitive down to the final games with advancement at stake. The All-Ireland series ties could be played over three week-ends in July and August.No replays and all games to be played in Croke Park with quarterfinals on the same weekend in double headers. All teams play the same number of games and when you lose you are out. This would also free up more time for successful counties to play off their club competitions. The grass-roots club hurler in a successful county is the big loser under the current system. They train all summer, playing games of little significance and then have their club championships run off over a few weeks in probable inclement weather in October.
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