Thistlecrack & Cue Card

Different owners, bonus will not come into it

I'm with DJ...I think if the bonus is in play they won't clash, even though Thistlecrack's age is a factor in the decision.

Don't think tizzard quite has the pull over his owners that mullins does, therefore I doubt he'll have the defining say.
If thistlecrack is near faultless between now and march I'd be amazed if he doesn't run in the gold cup.


Ps great to have the very knowledgable dj back on the forum I'm sure even his detractors will agree

You were doing very well Mince till right at the end,and the evil little wippet that you are came through . Paul sacked Joe because he simply wasn't good enough,lets leave it at that . DJ seems to be under the impression that Thistle's owner should stand aside and let CC have his way, what he fails to understand is,they feel their horse is good enough right now to go for the Cup, as the season progresses that might change,they'll also take into consideration that a NOVICE won it last year.The RSA has destroyed more good horses than any other race apart from the GN. They would be insane to even think of going down that route .DJ lets ask the question ,if you owned Thistle and he was doing fine coming to Xmas would you stand aside and let CC have his own way, Thistle is the next biggest earner in that stable,to ask a owner to step aside and let another horse take your horses thunder never mind its cash is simply stupidity of the highest order.This is the same CC who FELL in last years CC.

On that same note,the only threads that seem to suit you , are ones filled with hatred ,you brought a interesting thread down in a couple of sentences .

Un De Sceaux could easily win the Champion Chase if Douvan doesn't run in it, indeed, Frank. If Douvan were to run in the Gold Cup, I'd say there would be a fair chance that could throw the Thistlecrack owners.

I'd say had Mullins not been in the throws of it with Gigginstown, he might well have definitely fired Douvan at the Gold Cup, I wonder if the Gigginstown thing, losing Vautour and with Annie and Faugheen yet to appear, he might just think I'll pocket my Champion Chase with Douvan.

If Un De Sceaux is right, he is clearly the second best horse after Douvan.

One thing you could say about Thistlecrack, he has never beaten a real top-class animal, he has beaten his rivals in such a way that has set him apart, but never beaten a real one.

Douvan's style of racing is more relaxed, his jumping more secure and I'd say most people would favour him over Thistlecrack. I'd say Thistlecrack would be mightily effective at 2 miles over hurdles as well, never been campaigned there but he just got wicked strong and pacy after his novice hurdle season to the point they can now do anything with him. With the hurdlers in the UK so weak, and given how well he jumps hurdles, i'd have gone down the Champion Hurdle route for a crack at a unique double.

Douvan beats them all if they go for it, like WPM says they have nothing can work with him, in that yard!

price Douvan up if he runs in the Gold Cup lads, suppose we can't say for sure whether he'd stay (he would!) but say Will Mullins announced tomorrow morning he'd be aimed at it, I'd say he'd be no bigger that 6/4, 7/4 max.

I wonder does the fact Douvan probably goes for the Gold Cup in 2018 have the biggest impact of all on what connections of Thistlecrack do. Cue Card has his frailties in the context of a Gold Cup, the 15' winner might not be the same horse; no new outstanding young horse from Gigginstown or any of the big trainers; it could be construed a weakish year.

Kauto Star should've done a Champion Chase/Gold Cup double having fallen when Newmill won that in 06', it is possible and these good jumps horses like Faugheen, annie power and Vautour are capable from 2 to 3 miles.

Would love to see WPM go for it, not sure if this makes sense but i would also see it as him sticking it to O'Leary!

There is zero chance that the conservative/practical WPM will run Douvan in the Gold Cup this year.

He said it wouldn't be fair to run him in the TC on seasonal debut ,no way he'll run him in Mallow and then Kempton - hence no GC.

I hate to talk disparagingly about the deceased and a triple festival winner but I couldn't understand how people thought Vautour wanted the test of a Gold Cup when he got oustayed over 3 miles on a pancake track

Kauto Star was a complete one of freak. It's extremely rare to have the speed to win graded races and the stamina to thrive on a GC test. There is an awful lot of waffle talked about when translating form (over a variety of distances) that is multiple classes below graded form. You see it on the flat also horse wins a 12 furlong maiden, then automatically it's optimum distance is 12 furlongs when it steps up in class, not the case it just has so much in hand that it would win regardless. Usain Bolt would beat Wonky over most distances.

Best Mate (winning pointer at Lismore) was second in the supreme novices hurdle to Sausalito bay but how long was he campaigned at the minimum distance? He never ran over the minimum trip again. Surely there is a considerable disparity in how a 2 mile chaser and a Gold Cup horse is trained and if a considerable amount of time is spent campaigning over the minimum trip then surely it becomes more difficult to alter.

This is a critical point for me, a horse's racing style becomes accustomed to a certain distance. A horse is like a match, they only have a certain amount of energy to expend. Douvan has raced 10 times over a maximum distance of 17 furlongs in Ireland/UK (probably 14 races by the end of this year), 3 miles 2 furlongs around Cheltenham would be some culture shock. Apart from his obvious brilliance and relaxed running style what makes you believe that he would thrive on such an endurance test.

Early days and the better ground may be some mitigation but not looking likely that we'll see a novice hurdler in the same bracket as Faugheen, Douvan, Vautour or Altior this year.

Thought Annie Power's effort when second to More of That was exceptional, although as you say, the habits she learned racing at shorter arguably cost her that day behind a brilliant winner.

I've kind of always been of the opinion that the Vautour of last season wasn't quite the horse of the year before; and was just never right. I was astonished when Cue Card battled past him at Kempton. The horse that won the Supreme Novices as he did, I would concede you are probably negating his best assets asking him to go 3 miles. I kind of discount Punchestown last season as he raced as a bit over the top to me despite staying on, raced as he'd worked all year. Its funny, getting back to Kempton, I expected him to be going easier.

The way Faugheen was when he won the Irish Champion, who knows what he'd do at 3 miles but he equally could be undone the same way Annie power was by More of That; just overracing that bit.

I'm probably a bit of a dreamer with good horses, think they can do anything. From what you've said above, they're probably hindering Douvan's chances the longer they keep him to the relative speed test of 2 mile chasing, he's picking up the habits that undid Annie Power, basically; and they are part of what makes him so good at 2 miles. I guess that was the part I was missing.

I dont think Willie will run Douvan in the Gold cup myself Dj ,i had a look at his last couple of races and he was hard held winning them ,he could be another Kauto Star, but you are most likely right about WPM,   i look forward to see him running over 3miles.  P.S if your right about Douvan running in the Q/M the best price is 4/6 now, he will be at least 4/1 on come Cheltenham time.

Hard to think of a horse that raced over 2 miles for 3 years and then turned out to be a gold cup horse or even a 3 mile chaser.

Frank60, I hope I'm wrong,I'd love to see it being mixed up a bit and not always the pragmatic decision. You'd nearly like Ricci to make a few of the calls for a while. TBF WPM normally makes the calculated percentage call but sometimes you want him to mix it up and go for the juggler.

It's not shaping up to be a vintage NH season currently apart from the Colin Tizzard (to some extent Elliot/Giggy) narrative.

Is there an exciting novice hurdler in Ireland yet?

Death duty of Elliots obviously.

Yeah, Henderson has missed a trick with Altior going fencing it seems. Its kind of funny in that its like he viewed it as a way of staying away from both Douvan and Faugheen, but the English horses being so bad, and Faugheen having not appeared, it has now looked a mistake.

Like WPM is dictating to Henderson in a way. People love a Henderson hurdler (rightly so) and he'd be a strong second fav I'd say 9/4 or 5/2 ish if he'd pissed up in the Fighting Fifth as he would have done

The season has been woeful so far, Leopardstown Christmas week is always fantastic, though, I actually prefer it to Punchestown in many ways.

The narrative of the Tizzard story and the Mullins/Gigginstown split has been more interesting than the on track action in some ways. Elliot/Mullins has the potential to be titanic though, if Elliot has a good Christmas, maybe winning the Paddy Power Handicap, we have a right good game.

Nicholls needs Clan des Obeaux to be good. I'd ask big questions of Greatrex and Pauling for the way One Track Mind and Barters Hill were campaigned over fences. Don't think they have the work horses at home to ready one to throw in at that depth, even if they have figured in good races over hurdles. I'd say Pauling in particular must be absolutely kicking himself.

So Chelt you agree with me that DJ is talking rubbish re Thistle and the RSA.

It's possible connections can change their mind, circumstances can easily lead to change of plan, if he clouts every fence in the Feltham then there's every chance they could change their minds. Failing that if it was trained by W Mullins its target could vary from the Ryanair to the GC to the 4 miler with maybe even a chance of the X country!

You fail to answer the question Chelt, a piece of evasion if ever I saw one ,we are all aware that if the circumstances change he will go another route, but the RSA  surely not . Its okay to stand up for what you believe,DJ won't come rushing in the door to beat you up.Thistle has much to much speed for the RSA .

No Frank,I must ask Gordon the next day,from whats been on the news it seems hes back in light work,as a aside ,BADS of Noels is my one to watch this year as I already stated on a thread awhile back,I've been lucky enough to have backed him the three times he's ran and won this year.He might appear at Leop, though Noel might give him a rest,hes going to be some chaser next year.

Both in the King George , fair play to the Tizzards, cracking people who deserve good horses.
In effect they have saved the race, as now it promises to be one of the clashes of the festive season. It also opens up the Feltham.

It's a great thing for the sport, arguably the biggest clash over jumps since Kauto Star v Denman.

Hope Cue Card wins because he's been a brilliant horse all the way through and came through a tough patch a few years ago, would've probably won a Champion Chase but for prime Sprinter Sacre.

Saved the race is right.