The Collapse Of Betting On Irish Racecourses

I am not certain Pa there exchanges really suit the average joe soap, with bookmakers offering BOG and of course you have the 4.5% reduc then on top of that from bf, i think you are best off with a bookmaker if you can get on that way. Football there is no contest tbh.

I agree that an on-course Betfair type betting would be best.
The Tote take too much out.  The bookies take out more.
The only people who will bet with the bookies are holidaymakers.
The result is poor racecourse attendance as the shrewd bet elsewhere.

Rocket , I shall not be replying to your rubbish anymore after tonight , I had backed this animal @ 2/1 and 15/8 7/4 with plenty of others and was finishing up when near the end of the line I spotted this clown going 15/8 asked for a 100 was told it was now 7/4 with him I said I'll take that ,he said its now 6/4 ,I said ok I'll have the 6/4 , he refused the bet ..Horse got beat , robbing a bookie , that went out with the grave robbers ffs...

With Irish racing the exchange is now following the bookmakers and has been for a good while.

Paddy Power i know have critics here but in general they have been quite innovative in regards their off course business.
Since this merger i am quite stunned that there doesn't appear to be a single change made,maybe "betfair" themselves are still running it as they were up till the merger,is it possible PP are happy with the way the exchange is at the moment? There was a time when the "exchange" was supposedly going to rule the world so to speak,that train has been well and truly shunted down a dead end imo.

Sorry Wonks but if you seen 2/1 and backed it and i know you're not a big bettor why go and back it at 15/8 again? Your story is falling apart.

Pa, I have no doubt that PP have took total control , under Betfairs watch it was always better, in fact 99.9% of the time pricewise , now day after day you'll find better sp than on here..

You really are a gobshyte , read the thread again , I had taken all the 2/1 15/8 avaiable along the line it went 7/4 ,this clown was GOING 15/8.God why do I bother.

That doesn't show though Workrider, the very least they could do would be give them the benefit of their advertising department, you kinda get Nelly and the "royal box" but this (i hope phonetically right) Beeetfaaair,tap,tap,boooom rubbish is desperate.

Think it took a while for the premium charge to really kick in as well WR, on the American golf the two main market makers (Eddie the Eagle and Knight Rider) took a view,they won (and lost) big, both gone as priced out,the markets there only now follow the books also and poor out if you want a bet mid round, you are again looking at the books first call.

Ha you took all the 2/1 will ya wake up ya clown, fgs man stop pretending you are something you're not, you're not a big gmabler you're a 50's man, sometimes maybe a little bigger sometimes maybe a little smaller. You backed a horse at 2's you seen money coming in for it, it went 7/4 with one lad going 15/8 you went up and tried to back it and you were rightly knocked back. Wonks you put €50 on a horse in Sligo and i put it down for you and i could tell you were sweating over it. Give it a rest Mr Byrnes

it should have been a tote monopoly guys from a long time ago owned 100% by racing authorities with the addition of an online exchange owned by same org as well...........bookies and off course fixed odds betting have done nothing for racing..........they wont allow u to win anyway so it operates something like a tote. whole thing has been a waste of time.
any meeting that attracts big crowds now do so for entertainment reasons...........it has nothing to do with betting........the day that on course bookies are gone will be a happy day. the model is dead.

Pa, I'm not backing as much on here as I have done in the past because of the prices been offered . I find it iritating  looking at the difference now compared to the recent past when Betfair ran the show , have a peep at some of the s.ps been returned  and compere them with Betfair for the next week or so . I'm sure you'll be surprised...

Apologies for going slightly off topic.
I'm suspicious there isn't even a slight link though, i can't fathom why nothing seems to be done by PP for the exchange and yet we are bombarded with pushing their shop side of things.
I well believe that WR,get a reduction factor,drifter,and commission on top, the bot driven markets are now so tight on here, getting very poor "value" in Irish racing and golf in particular.
Taking Bannf as an example no problem getting 6/4 with a book at the moment,would you really want to take the £30 at 2.54 on here?
Rant over,it is a bit of a bugbear,i can't understand why nothing is being done, i only want "jam" on it some of the time.

PP must be looking in and trying to mess with me head,this minute they just went 13/8!!

no mention of intrepid prince gamble , one man shortened it from 20/1 to 7/1 on track
collected the loot in a rucksack and fooked off home to Athgarvan to divvy up
i say he thinks on  course market still ok

It seems CALLING CARD left his calling card but he does however make my point.
Intrepid Prince opened up 8/1 in the betting shops and shortened to sevens,nothing dramatic there.
They managed with their delayed shows to conceal what now appears a monstrous gamble.

The Curragh betting ring is in the wrong place for a start but its still relatively strong.
If you want to get money on at a top price its funnily enough the new entrants you go to.
Some of the old reliables are a shadow of their former selves.

The Thurles betting ring seems smashed,what used to be a bustling vibrant square is now a moribund T with lots of men buried in computers facing the wrong way.

WILDMAN
i will answer two quotes for you
per other thread no i don,t employ and Easter European ladies , 50 % of my staff are IRISH and are working for me over 6 years, i do employ Indians and Filipino however.
i dont understand your religion point sorry
No UNFORTUNATELY i wasn't not the lucky rucksack man but did avail of some 8/1 when told .
u however are quite correct most layers now either clerk the bets or have their arse to the customers buried into the Machine

The exchanges are swallowing up gamblers money in greater amounts and faster than ever before. Hence we see empty racecourses and betting shops countrywide. The only people at racecourses are people who bet for fun and non gamblers who never feel the "need" to bet. The exchanges are the worst invention for punters who end up losing fortunes of money in a less entertaining service

There are a number of problems.

The racecourses get money too easily and some dont need customers. Galway Listowel Leopardstown and Punchestown keep the show on the road. Some of the smaller ones do make an effort. The non-triers harm racing and there are fewer suckers nowadays who are prepared to have their pockets picked. The holiday crowds at the likes of Galway dont mind as they just see losses as holiday expenses. Some of the cr@p written about the Charles Byrne affair makes me sick especially those who say its great - supposedly good for racing and the bookmakers being taken for one!!!??? The bookies get their money back eventually but the ordinary punter and racing lose out in the long term. We would all be much better if subsidies were done away with.

I tend to stay at home myself and watch and back the races i chose .the race is there in front of me and having a few  A/Cs includeing betfair i suppose its fair to say iv gone lazy where going out to racing is concerned, i admire foremites like W/R who go racing a great deal , A good thread with some excellent posts.

theres no value on course anymore,all the cowardly bookmakers have been staring at oddschecker and betfair all morning and anything that looks like its been nibbled at early prices is "chalked up" at a much lower price than it will have been available at overnite or early morning even though none of the oncourse guys have laid a dime.once at the races most of the bookies are now just effectively arbers,not willing to lay any bet unless they can have it back on the machine..not sure wot davy hylands m o is any more? was always good to see him bet to his opinion.i dont go racing much now but when i do i tend to place my bets online or in the shops before i go so at least securing some value.at the races ill just have a few beers and enjoy the day,refusing to give the cowards my few quid.sad but true.

Davy still doing his own thing Insideinfo,still willing to take a bet ,at Naas awhile back he was highlighting how Baddies were shortening up every fav, they have a massive representation on course now ,at the Curragh on Sun I had a bet with one of them , the horse was 13/2 when I placed my bet , yet when I looked at my docket he'd only given me 6/1 ,he corrected his mistake , point is this is happening all to often with this crowd , I would advise anyone having a bet with them to check their ticket BEFORE leaving the pitch...

good to know davy still going strong workrider,hes definitely one of a kind! i can rem him on occasion shouting out " big stuff only" or words to that effect and chasing the 2 quid punters at busy meetings in order to accommodate those wanting a proper bet.sean grahams who i used to have alot of respect for seem to have gone to the dogs,their rep usually has his head stuck in the computer instead of shouting out prices to the punters when ive saw them at the races recently.re your experience with ladbrokes on sun,the horse in question had probably went from 17/2 to 8/1 on the machine lol

Surely we are all bookmakers now ourselves, we can either work the price out or we cant.

I went to Galway for the first time in 23 years on the Monday. Didn't have a bet, just went for a nosey. Trading prices on here is the way.

Workrider, you state Davy H still going strong i doubt judging by his demeanour at The Curragh last weekend .
He was our friend for years laying allcomers , i remember one evening at ROSCOMMON when the tote bailed him out as he could not pay out.I hear his pitch at Leopardstown for sale ,

Well I had a 200 bet with him the other day at Naas , would much rather have a bet with him than his brother , hes never turned me away ,and yes I did hear he was having difficulties ,Davy is a bookie in the truest sense unlike his brother .

speak as you find is my motto fair dues thats not too bad, i trust it lost or you would be still there trying to get paid
if ur a regular racegoer you will notice NO other bookies hedge with him nowadays
Francis is and always has been a twopence bookmaker, we all know to stay well clear with any  bet of substance

how does francis pay expenses?they are fairly steep these days or is he exempt due to his shop steward job?!?

he gets circa 30k per annum from HRI and as he wouldn't spend xmas he survives

In my hayday I bankrolled a bookie Calling Card ,he would arrive at the track with the price of a couple of drinks in the scatchel, nobody checked in those days , I got out when I told him that a jockey really fancied one in the bumper and left him to go and back it , I took the 5/1 and arrived back to the pitch only to discover that he was going 5/1 w/o the fav ... I kid you not , end of my backing him, horse won by 10lts btw. Davy is worth giving a chance , I'd say hes not the only one on a downer .

jesus wept, that was some setup ha.
how long ago was that? i am sure you have noticed that there has been a very bi shift in the demograph of the ring whereby the traditional Dublin based bookmaking families have all but disappeared. Farrells Fannnins Hannigans Martins Gernons Griffins etc i was shown a photo of the Leopardstown ring in the early seventies some old faces long since gone.
I agree totally Davy is sound but his demise is typical of the modern on course layer.
they are dropping like flies,
when was the last person to come into the game?

its all about phones ...many peeps go racing with their drink money ...any betting is on the phone: BOG double result ...its a no brainer

1991 was the year  , J Farrell was standing in HX last night , although hes working for Baddies oncourse ,Eddie Hannigan is also working behind the sence for Powers I think ,J Fanning is still going strong, the others Gernon and Griffins did a stint are the recent Galway festival and can still be seen on the p2p circuit . You are correct though,many changes taking place .

yeah youn Shamo works the dogs and help Dara Fitz at the big meetings, i meant Oliver Charlie and Micky Fanning not jinxy Jim
I AM SURE A LOT OF LESSER BOOKIES WOULD WELCOME A TANKER NOW

Of all the changes in racing the demise of the betting ring is the most stark. Many other Dublin based bookmaking families no longer operating on course. Meehans, Mulligans, Rogers, Durkins and sure there are others. Not forgetting Skellys from Limerick. Joe Donnelly timed his exit perfectly. One clever man.

History has shown that many bookmakers have been buried by their own relations and in most cases their sons .
If that didn't happen then their sons failed to carry the baton passed on to them, and in many cases their offsprings were given quite a head start.
Maybe it's a case of their protégés getting things too soft in the halcyon days and were unable to grind out like their fathers before them.
Not for a moment am I saying that Joe Donnelly wasn't a very clever operator , but it was more timing than anything else that he decided to pack it in. He had no family who showed any interest , had been a bookie for 40 years , it was no longer anywhere near being his main income , and I assume he could see that his assets were nowhere near as valuable as others thought . Bookmaking was a job to Joe, but he wasn't passionate about it, far from it in fact. Joe played people and had  absolutely no interest in  horseracing.
There were some tremendous bookmakers down through the years, men of great charisma , men with bottle. There were great characters too, guys who played with a smile , and quite often with very little money .
The game is unrecognisable now , the fun has gone out of it for both the punter and the bookmaker .

I can't for the life of me remember where his betting office was in Cork City,i know he had one,was it before hacketts at the top of Shandon St.?
Know he bought the old Victoria hotel in Patrick St and think he has bits on the opposite side of the street as well,rich man from property dealings afaik.

Pa, he had a shop on the left hand side of the front entrance to Queens Old Castle, i'd  say there's a Turkish barber there now, and he had one up in Mayfield, just off the Old Youghal Road.

Des Fox the best and bravest I ever saw.

I agree with Jimeen about Joe Donnelly being a player of people and would have also agreed with him only being interested in money except he owns two promising horses.
He has two or three horses with Willie Mullins,that mare that won in Tramore,Bellewstown and Galway looks a Cheltenham winner to me.

Thanks Jimeen, as you say it i,ve only a vague recollection of it but no doubt you are right, funnily enough i've fond memories of another at more or less at the back of the Queens Old Castle,(Thomas Curtins sky blue painted shop at corner of Washington/South Main St with think it was a Simon(had dogs) and Liam Gibney(florist now or until recently).
Talking about the sons getting a good start i was a bit disappointed to hear Cashman son(Kevin? who was sound enough) was driving a cab now,couldn't care less with the other fella Paul who i had the misfortune of meeting in relation to a disputed bet.

Pa, is that the same Cashmans that used to sponcer the dog racing ?

Yes WR,Liam.

Serious thread lads, really interesting.

Noticed that Sailors Warn was running the other day in England. Is he still as involved as he was, or has Premium Charge here wrecked it for him?

Used to have a string of horses that suggested a fair aul income and seemed a nice man from the interviews I saw and read of him at the time.

The horses are going the same way as the dogs. You lose count the times you go to a layer for, say, a ton at 4's only to see it cut to 7-2 before your very eyes. WITHOUT HAVING LAID IT. The exchanges have ruined the game, especially for the clever punter. The "bookies" are laying horses at bottom price, due to their TOTAL reliance on Betfair. No wonder decent punters are falling by the wayside.

As for that clown Francis. Guy should not be allowed stand. Go up to him waving 2 20 notes and the fool trembles. A total embarrassment to himself. What is the point of him going racing????

I find myself in total agreement re that waster ,should have his licence revoked .

Pa, thats incredibly sad , they were a top outfit.I shudder to think whats happening futhur down the pecking order .

They are gone a couple of years now WR, they had maybe 10? shops around city and suburbs, never moved with the times and their shops were depressing and the epitome of a place for losers. I had the feeling their staff wages revolved around how well the shop did which in turn they didn't want anyone winning,only conjecture that is.
On the other side of the coin in their earlier days they did a lot for local football teams and always put prizes into draws and suchlike.
The bet dispute i had with them and i don't know what people would make of it but wonder was it me?
I used to do placepots a lot at the time and i was on some run with them getting fair few pots for a few months up to the bet.
3 meetings in winter, Plumpton,Fontwell and the usual AW one Southwell'
I wrote Plumpton,Fontwell on the top of the slip correctly but put Lingfield down for Southwell.
The numbers of the horses (ie 14 race 4) could only mean the slip applied to Southwell.
How would you settle it, i realise i was at fault and could have just received stake back but sometimes a punter makes a genuine mistake as well.

Wildmanfromborneo, I can remember Des Fox vaguely and I'm not disputing he was brave . From what I hear of him he was indeed so and a decent man to go with it. I do know one thing for certain though and it's this, when Des did come out to play , there would have been times where he was getting a bit of help , and that's always welcome when you are putting your neck on the line
In the bravery stakes , there is no doubt on my mind who the winner was , and it was the day a man went down the book with that Mullins horse in the bumper in Punchestown, that took some bottle . I'm not condoning the act but it deserved the iron cross if they were awarding them.

That could only be true of a few races yet Fox took them on every race.

I don't really get the reference to standing a Willie Mullins bumper horse,I know they seem to win most of them but what was exceptional about this Punchestown race.

Is their a Confederate reference there or am I being too cryptic ?

Nobody takes them on every race willdmanfromborneo, and if they did they wouldn't be around for too long.
The bumper I'm referring to is almost a part of folklore at this stage. A bookie who ultimately met his Waterloo in listowel later that year , taking on all comers whilst surrounded by members of HRI who were asking him to stop.
The best bottle I've ever witnessed by a country mile.

A certain song was associated with the Confederate States it was called  I WISH I WAS IN .........

You can also be said to be Whistling ........ when you are wasting time.

That gentleman was a fellow countyman of mine although from the wrong end of the county,cycling stronghold I believe.

Jimeen was that a man from the Clonmel area that should have been awarded The George Cross Medal?

That was the very man Gemini . As I said earlier you would have to have a bit of sympathy for the punters involved . The whole matter was handled disgracefully by HRI. It was the final nail in the racecourse bookmakers coffin and the notion of not being paid by the racecourse bookmakers was completely alien to any normal every day punter. Now not alone was there no double result , there was a chance you mightn't get paid at all . It wouldn't have cost a fortune to put it right , particularly with the wastage that is prevalent amongst the horse racing governing bodies.
It seems perfectly alright for a man to be paid a six figure sum to collect holding cards but not ok to pay ordinary punters a much lesser amount .
But back to the bravery , and yes it was an act I've never ever seen the like of. The pressure that the man must have been under can only be imagined. A medal the size of a manhole was well deserved

Characters like him will never ever grace bookmaker pitches again, in fairness to him you would pay the entrance fee alone in to see what he going to do next, no one like him in the ring nowadays, place full of keyboard warriors with no opinions in the world, bar the man with the hat smoking the pipe

Yes the man with the pipe who is a very nice fellow as well I might add, is willing to put his money where his pipe is. The only problem is the fumes from that said utensil has been known to be quite toxic to his punters over the years. There have been plenty who have come in contact with it and not been the better for it.
He's another man who is willing to pick his battles, and isn't often unarmed either.

One of the odest betting rules I learnt was if you were looking for the best price on a horse you fancied and found yourself outside of The Pipes stall you no longer wanted to back it.

He has to be the longest betting in the ring by some amount,must be over fifty years doing it.
He will bet you what you want but you have to play at his prices.

Very true Jimeen. Some sons who started in pole position didnt last too long. Maybe the hunger or smarts werent passed on. Toughest of games i'd say if you're not clued up or willing to learn.

JIMEEN good to see you back and yeah Whistling D performance laying the bumper horse at Ptown was mesmeric and John St hovering around too.
the ring is now reduced to an assortment of rag and bone merchants led by the Yellow umbrella mob. Paul the Pox and the Muinteoir are from the same county as Dixie but different gray.
take out Dara Fitz and Tracks from Tipp tomorrow and you wouldnt bet a washer on
ya may make a comeback Workrider and Jimeen pitches are cheap
Champagne bookies like Rossie Brian and Textbet  John thought it was easy peasy

Bookmaking has changed dramatically in Ireland since their emergence from the shadows of the twenties .  The first notable bookmaker in Ireland as far as I know was Jim Rice from Belfast .  He dominated betting in Northern Ireland on course and off course for twenty years plus , having a string of offices mostly in Belfast , and before "legalisation" around 1960 . Also stood at the big meetings in England . Betting shops in the south in that era were dire establishments , Kilmartins the urban sample  , and punitive tax gave the punter no chance .

I lived in Dublin in the early sixties , and the southern betting shops were in the ha'penny place compared with thriving offices in the North . There was also partial treatment of northern vs southern bookmakers in relation to licences in the south ( no southern bookies were attempting to bet in the north , would not have survived probably) , but Sean Graham had to resort to betting via a southern bookie as a front for years until he was eventually allowed to bet in his own right .  He then dominated the ring , and built up a string of shops from nothing  , family still operate across the north and a few in south and Scotland , but not the force or craic which used to abound therein .

Barney was building an empire of shops , being a shrewd businessman ( and boxing empressario ) as Ladcrooks found out , but he was never a huge force on course , albeit his shops were well run and very busy . Came out of the ruck with the ball though , with a big smile on his face , fair play to him . Some of his family are still involved with another big bookmaking firm in the north . 

Dessie Fox taught in a school in the seventies with some of my friends ( still ) on the Ravenhill Road not far from the rugby ground  , but he was I suspect a shrewd punter and he built a great on course business until he was one of the biggest ( and most fearless ) layers in the ring from late seventies until his shocking death .

I only heard bits and pieces about the southern bookies , Terry Rogers was a character but I don't think I ever had a bet with him , I did have bets with JP when he appeared , and I watched him grow into the superstar he now is , but his fortune is only founded on bookmaking , not derived from it .

Powers have evolved from I know not where , the inspiration coming from a manager I ran across ( friendly ) occasionally , mainly in Tralee , he knew his onions and chatted to punters among other gifts he undoubtedly had . Obviously shrewd business people , well marketed , but I now spend little time in any of their offices north or south .

On course simply does not exist any more , some on here would try to convince you otherwise , but the sad fact is that the exchanges and internet have changed the scene forever . I have benefitted personally from the revised scene , but it is a completely different operation from the days of yore , and not as much craic even if you can turn a few bob in profit . 

Throughout Ireland , south and north , there have always been some classified as bookies , but a lot sailed close to the wind and very often required "tanking" on entry to any meeting . Loads of characters , but not built to last in my book . Not sure where the next twenty years will lead to .

Powers had a shop or two in most towns in the South in the 60s and would have been the biggest shop player in those days.

They were a Waterford/Tramore family.

The Power girls were always a cut or two above those employed by the locals.

Think the Powers person I met a few times was Kenny , that name rings a bell somewhere in the memory . That would have been in the late eighties I think .  But like all the high street bookies nowadays , the bean counting accountants hold the strings , punters are not allowed to win , and if they do you maximise the publicity so that everyone thinks its easy ( just like everyone who visits casinos in the movies is always lucky) .  Catch as catch can applies more than ever these days .

Kelly, That would have been Stewart , the guru of sport , now more that likely to be found searching for his own guru in some Indian ashram...

Clerked briefly on the track for a couple of years, mainly festival meetings (would have done listowel, tramore and a couple of punchestown festivals). Would have been when the poop was just starting to hit the fan around 2007/2008. Even aside from the impending recession which was just starting to hit you could tell the ring was a shadow of its former self (going of the stories i would have heard from some more senior bookies/clerks). Remember remarking to a few bookies in a pub in tralee one night that they would have to up their game and at least offer double result or maybe the occasional "2nd to FAV" specials to keep punters interested. Was firmly laughed out the door. Then, as now, they have showed very little initiative to improve their lot. All they basically do is whinge and moan without realising THEY caused the problem, not the punter.

Many fine points there Monarch.

a lad was working yesterday in tipp told me ring is almost dead. no big punters .most of the business is done on the machine..bookie v b****..

Aug 17, 2016 -- 10:08AM, kavvie wrote:

a lad was working yesterday in tipp told me ring is almost dead. no big punters .most of the business is done on the machine..bookie v b****..

Small meetings have become an absolute joke. You'd struggle to get a bet on to win say 500. All they are now is fodder for the offices. Yesterdays meeting at tipp being a prime example

true monarch but are ya not stretching it a bit saying to win a monkey
dara, tracks , tockey , jimmy hayes. baker. coffey , dinny gould, john carey , cummins , mcgrane , mcdonnell all work there and in my experience a monkey would not put the fear of god in any of them
but i agree midweek has shot its bolt big time

Piecing together the jigsaw leaves me to the belief that the bookie "layers" have become mainly arbers , taking mug money at short odds and reinvesting it on the exchanges at bigger odds , guaranteeing profit .  Certainly fits in with my observations on activity in the "ring" on the few occasions I have been on track in last number of years .  Cant blame them for making a living , but surely it flies in the face of the concept of bookmaking/ laying licensing considerations . They are supposed to be the market makers , not the market followers .

The whole process needs reviewed , but nobody cares as far as I can see , and the basis for returning SP's also needs scrutiny . Ultimately the only thing that will force action is falling attendances when punters realise there is no point in going on course with a view to getting value .

Aug 17, 2016 -- 11:06AM, CALLING CARD wrote:

true monarch but are ya not stretching it a bit saying to win a monkeydara, tracks , tockey , jimmy hayes. baker. coffey , dinny gould, john carey , cummins , mcgrane , mcdonnell all work there and in my experience a monkey would not put the fear of god in any of thembut i agree midweek has shot its bolt big time

Maybe just a bit, but know of occasions it has happened. Mostly  at brutal midweek meetings where attendances have fallen through the floor. Agree there is still bookies there willing to take the punter on to a certain degree. Their becoming more and more of a rarity now though. Real shame.

a guy standing might lay say an 1/1 fav for a monkey on the machine,just to take a position.the taker might be the lad beside him.. some might think thats not happening frequently buts it is..the whole thing is a house of cards

punters are not stupid anymore. gone is the day when you can lay 2 monkeys and its 3.25/3.5 on machine. walk into any betting ring in ireland and people are on their phones comparing betfair prices and prices on the boards. how is there such a discrepency between english and irish markets in the minutes leading up to a race? some of the irish meetings are pathetic not even €30,000 matched with 6 minutes to post. there is no incentive to go racing in ireland too the midweek meetings.

backing live bookies prices on irish racing where horses are 10/1 or bigger is pure robbery.......compare them to betfair and there is average 5 points diff for 10/1-20/1 and usually 10 pts bigger for those 20/1 or bigger.

the fixed odds betting model is dead.......it cant fund racing...........irish racing is propped up by the tax payer and uk prize money is patethic.........Qatar has now come in to save the group 1 prize money in UK......and to think the fixed odds layers now wont take proper bets...........the whole thing is a joke...........it should have been a tote monopoly on course, off course and on line from day one..........fixed odds betting should never have seen the light of day......
betfair exchange is good but do we really need it?..........the answer is no. a strong tote market like they have elsewhere would do fine.

The Irish Tote has never made money and contributes nothing to Irish racing.

If you gave them a monopoly they would still lose.

Did a group of bookies not set up a new association a couple of years back? Think with the intention of trying to improve things in some way or other. Not sure who even headed it up. Or anyone any idea what if anything happened with them after?

yes Monarch the PBA they are called, the set up came about after a rift within the INBA over the election of a commitee.
PBA ARE MADE UP MAINLY OF RAILS BOOKMAKERS WHO CONSIDER THAT AS THEY TURNOVER THE MAJORITY OF FUNDS ARE ENTITLED TO RUN THE ASSOCATION.
probably a fair point in truth, the small bookmakers held a coup d'etat at an agm and swung power in their favour
i think the rift healed and a new assoc was formed , i stand to be corrected though.
brain dead i agree a tote monopoly is an option but not at 25-30% takeout
at least when u have a bet at fixed or bog you know ur potential return
have a look at the tote returns and their take from pick 6 pools etc unreal , i am sure all bookies on/off course would love a 30% margin

people talk about the "tab" in australia as a good model but the take out there is big also.having said that its v popular there with hugw turnover and its fed into a lot of pubs..

Kavvie thats the whole secret , in france there are betting cafes.
surely with a licensed lotto terminal in most shops a weekly bonanza race could be run with a jackpot

" I agree a Tote monopoly is an option but not at 25 - 30% takeout "

Calling Card understands betting so its hard to credit how he could pen that sentence.
They aren't making money with that takeout so would just lose more with a smaller takeout.

A Tote monopoly can only work in new markets,punters in Ireland are used to bookmakers so unlike France won't tolerate a lesser service.

wildman
its the costs that are crippling the nanny goat not the margin
vastly overstaffed and very inefficient

Tote Ireland (no 2015 figures available) crow about rising turnover but it's exclusively from overseas operators betting into Irish markets (incl placepot)with miniscule margins to the Tote. Turnover increased by almost 11% in 2014 but gross margins fell from 12.5% to 11%.

They effectively broke even in 2103 and 2014 (on turnover of almost 60m!!!!) and there's possibly hidden subsidies they do not have to pay such as head office costs or facilities at the track. They returned just 109,000 to all non HRI tracks on their "reward" system. They sponsor a few races, but this is Peter robbing Paul. Tim Higgins a rather elusive figure and they have no presence in the media. Even the Boils jackass makes some mark.

The tote monopoly horse bolted many years ago but I never once heard anyone in authority say we need to take on the Paddy's of this world with their bleeding dry of the populace for the sake of the "markets". Only radical policy changes would ever solve the taxpayer subsidy conundrum. The tax on non-resident operators seems to be working but horse racing an ever-declining slice of that pie. Semi-state means semi-stupor.

Taxes could be levied on sales, stallion fees etc. The Wildenstein dispersal will be a huge benefit for Goffs in October and November but it will be tax neutral save for 12.5% on the Goffs profits. We do have a very vibrant industry outside the racecourse but the "haves" assiduously avoid helping the "have nots". The scandal of TV money exclusively going to the pockets of racecourses and not prize money is some joke. Best to rely on the workriders of this world to keep the small man in business. The fudge on stallion fees saw off that negative publicity brilliantly.

Anyone know if johnny dineen is still on the go? Havent gone racing in ireland in a while so don't know.

tote monopolies in HK, france, japan and australia are about 15-20% i think!............no one is advocating a tote monopoly of 25%........making nasty comments about tote ireland is just plain stupid...........the only way an effective tote can operate if it is something like a monopoly so stop making stupid comments that they contribute nothing. how are they supposed to compete with paddy powwow offering early prices, money back as a free bet if second etc. this forum is supposed to be for adults, not children.
how can anyone advocate the existing model be maintained when irish taxpayers are paying for the prize money and Uk prize money is patethic.............the firms dont take real bets anymore.........they wont allow successful punters in the door.
racing in hong kong, japan and australia is top notch (allthough aus does have on course bookies)..........they get huge crowds and have great prize money........they dont have the integrity issues we have and dont have debates every year about how the bloody game will be funded.

John Dineen i think had packed in bookmaking before it completely collapsed on its face, although the last time i was at the Chelts festival 2015, he was making a book there, in fairness to the man, he formed his own opinion and went with it unlike the keyboard warriors nowadays who consistently wont lay a bet unless is bigger on the computer screen..

firms might eventually take over the whole thing. makes no diff for irish racing.........the prices beamed into the shops are beyond patethic......anyone backing show prices >5/1 on irish racing need their head checked. some rip off.

In any debate about betting in various parts of the world , national characteristics enter into the equation . American racing to me is soulless , due mainly to fact that virtually all the tracks are left handed and dirt , so one track is no different from another essentially . Something must work though in USA , because the prize money is excellent .

Have been to the races in Hong Kong , they have the Hong Kong Jockey club running the racing ( and some say having a big influence in that jurisdiction ) .  The takeout is probably between 15 and 20% , odds displayed pre race show pools before deduction ( just to fool the punters I suspect ) , I did not consider having a bet when I figured out the situation . The Chinese are regarded as mighty punters , but I think most of the betting there is off course ( in the shops run by the Jockey Club , and I think they also cover other sports such as soccer ) . Also they bet on a multiplicity of different markets on each race , and jackpots etc . Don't think it would suit the most of us .

Racing in Australia is well organised , but compared with us it is at the expense of the punter ( same comment applies anywhere there is a "state" monopoly ). The Tab takeout is I think between 10 and 15% , there are bookies but they bet to Galway and Dundalk overrounds . Been to 2 meetings in Australia , they are cheap for entry , which includes a race card giving all the runners and form for every race meeting that day in Australia . There is a race every 6 minutes somewhere which you can bet on with the Tab,  it resembles an open air betting shop . I got the impression that a lot of those attending the track were more interested in the "away" meetings than what was happening in front of them . Enjoyable experience though , again I had minimal bets  , but it did resemble our type of racing set up.

Irish Tote is a tuppeny halfpenny operation , for a variety of reasons . Someone should take the bull by the horns and organise an Irish state run exchange replacing the Tote  , but for goodness sake pick the management properly and keep the shysters out of the picture . The bookie scene is by all accounts dead , most of them are  exchange driven operators .

Continental Europe has lots of nations running racing to various levels , French being dominant . No bookies there though as far as I know .

Our racing is the best in the world ( GB included in that ) , for variety and competitiveness  , the bookies have to date been a big factor in the popularity of racing . We all like a  dynamic pricng structure model though  , bookies were doing that for centuries at no charge other than their over round . Now they more or less just follow the exchanges .  Eventually something sensible will emerge to suit the majority . If it doesn't , attendances and the industry will fade.

a tote by design can only operate when its has something close to a monopoly cause when a punter places a bet when price is 4.0...........the pool needs to be big enough to stop it going to 2.5.........so there is no point in criticising the irish tote when the market here is deregulated and there are fixed odds shops everywhere.......
i went to australian racing every satuarday for several years..........there overrounds are not galway types......they are signifcantly better than irish and very close to british and they have to take a bet....otherwise they are told to eff off by the regulators........off course cash betting is of course tote monopoly...........the markets are strong and u can have a decent bet on a satuarday meet without the price moving much

kelly, u then went on to praise our racing..........yes we have great racing, well bred horses running on the best racecourses in the world.........of that, there is no doubt but there is no point in praising the variety on offer to the punter (which is reducing due to shops being run like blue chips and knocking back punters) when the whole bloody thing is paid for by the tax payer in ireland............how long can that survive?..........and in uk the prize money group racing aside, is third world stuff............way behind america, france, hk, jp and aus............yes countries with tote monopolies............AGAIN, HOW LONG CAN THAT SURVIVE...........group 1 racing in UK is paid for by UAE and Qatar.............the money for jumps is shocking...........that is a consensus now.........even willy mullins said that about cheltenham..............UK AND IRELAND DO NOT HAVE A GUARANTEED FUNDING SYSTEM............IE TOTE MONOPOLY...............this has huge ramifications for integrity cause connections can only make it pay by pulling strokes, the prize money is poor...........im not sure the next generation will be punting on this stuff

american racing is unique in itself........dirt racing is not good for horses......i do watch it though, they have a great pattern system, big races on every week and they run their horses, dont rap them up in cotton wool. of the major racing countries, their tote has the biggest deductions, i do believe track casinos fund a lot of the prize money and not just tote betting..........

Australia are beginning to let the devil in.........online companies like bet 365 are allowed to operate which is a huge mistake by the aussie authorities........they have very good racing (horses not as good as ours) but their prize money is superb.........they are off their heads allowing punters to bet off course with online companies..........it will do nothing for their racing.

Hk and japan will never allow non tote betting and so they should not........they get huge crowds and their prize money is off the charts.

this remark will be beaten down but the first step for irish and uk racing is to make on course betting a tote monopoly.........get rid of the books.........then get rid of the fixed odds betting in the shops.......its the only way the game can be saved here in the long term..........online will be impossible to sort out.......a diff story........leave as it is. the big crowds that go racing in ireland and uk dont go for betting anymore........they go to get pissed.............thats a fact..........ALL the big punters are on here.

How do you propose to get rid of the bookmakers ?

We had a glimpse of it in Leopardstown some time back,it was a fiasco.

Once punters have bet with bookmakers they won't accept a Tote monopoly,that's why you can't go back.
Even with a monopoly I think the Tote would still lose.

" all the big punters bet on here "
Not true.
Punters don't like this we make up our own rules,cancelling bets when it doesn't suit,snaffling accounts and applying ludicrous charges on someone who has the temerity to win.

bdj , do the Aussie bookies return any kind of SP ?  I assumed that they had no need to return an SP because the TAB did that job essentially . The meetings I was at there was no queue for the bookies  , but I guessed that they only catered for certain punters who did not want to push the price down on their horse by having a substantial bet on the TAB .

As a lifetime punter I want the bookie model to continue , I hate betting unless I know the odds  , and it is very seldom I bet at SP . But I fear bookies as we knew them are a dying breed , largely because punters like transparency and the ability to "get on " such as offered by the exchanges  . But if the bookies wont lay people , the exchanges will ( commission and volume available factored in ) .

wildman......how do we get rid of theM........i have no knowledge of the law and betting regulations etc, all i know is will the tax payer fund racing forever?...........because the evidence is there for all to see............BOOKMAKERS, ON COURSE/OFF COURSE CANNOT FUND RACING.........it can only be funded properly by a tote monopoly.
getting rid of bookmakers will have no impact on punting.......99% of punters lose.........it all ends in tears.........after a few years they will not know the difference

Kelly, the bookies do return an SP...........next days paper will have SP next to tab prices.........when i was there, the internet was in its infancy so i assume now the sp will be next to tab returns on betting sites.

The exchanges don't lay people,they match bets and have a no risk commission based profit.

The Sportsbook lays bets,not sure they are as fearless as some think.

I was at the Curragh today,dreadful weather,tiny crowd but at least one big punter,he drew as well.

Maybe it was Ana but a long time since I seen such an eye catcher as Wild Irish Rose in the first,have a look and note.

the oncourse bookies will eventually dissappear..........i dont see how they can make a living.........i dont know what will happen then......shops take over.........who knows

my experience from australia illustrates how a high street tote monopoly has no impact on the popularity of racing.........the tabs there were busier than offices here.........of course people do forecasts and other exotics but guys will have a punt on win only also.........some guys just do place only betting on tote and try to get a certainty up every satuarday.......the pools are strong and deductions about 17%.......at the course i used to bet with the books but i wasnt pushed about it.......i would still have gone racing if there were no books............the integrity down there is way ahead of ours.........u cant change tactics on a horse and not get questioned.......if u do a non jigger,u will get 6 mths minimum.............

Will the Tote pay double result.    No.
Will the Tote do BOG.                   No
Do Tab do any of these things ?

Do Betfair pay double result.   No
Bo Betfair do BOG.                 No

I've always looked on it as an unequal fight but its like a joust with the school bully,you nail him with one beaut in the full knowledge that retribution will be swift and sharp but oh what joy in that brief moment.

the funding and integrity of racing is the issue. its like asking premier league football players to play for 200 quid a week so we can watch for free and then expecting them not to gamble on the outcome.........
racing is about paying jockeys good money because they risk their lives......they earn peanuts here compared to the other major racing countries. owners and trainers deserve a better return also........and i want to believe what i see in front of me.........i dont take gambling very seriously, but i love racing. i hate to see major stables fiddling with their horses because the authorities dont pull them in. this is all due to not having a tote monopoly.
we will have to disagree on this one lads. but there will be a major shake up at some stage........maybe a minister will pull the plug on the handout some day.

Everything is grand until it APPEARS you look as if you got stung ie a 1.02 tote dividend on a 7/4 placed chance or a 1.6 on the win,it is a customer lost,as said above it is betting in the dark,a punter simply has to know the odds they are prepared to strike a wager.

Aug 20, 2016 -- 4:32PM, gemini01 wrote:

John Dineen i think had packed in bookmaking before it completely collapsed on its face, although the last time i was at the Chelts festival 2015, he was making a book there, in fairness to the man, he formed his own opinion and went with it unlike the keyboard warriors nowadays who consistently wont lay a bet unless is bigger on the computer screen..

Have to say when i was betting on course he was probably the best. Seen him at cheltenham last november meeting and he was still going strong. Some man to work a race. Would take buckets of money if he formed an opinion

FALLON back in the UK and riding out for Haggas, so much for the theory that he was behind O Callaghans strike rate .
23 books Saturday and 35 yesterday, i had a bet with a rails book maker in the last and per the ticket received he had only taken 120 bets that day . jesus hard to make it pay for him.
how do they get away with running a Derby second so unfit ffs, schooling ground

Why you bother going to the expense of time and money of standing on course and clicking on here, when you can lay on your couch and send a robot out to trade the horses, if you think you have a technical or fundamental edge.