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The Collapse Of Betting On Irish Racecourses

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Replies: 112
By:
Kelly
When: 17 Aug 16 19:08
Piecing together the jigsaw leaves me to the belief that the bookie "layers" have become mainly arbers , taking mug money at short odds and reinvesting it on the exchanges at bigger odds , guaranteeing profit .  Certainly fits in with my observations on activity in the "ring" on the few occasions I have been on track in last number of years .  Cant blame them for making a living , but surely it flies in the face of the concept of bookmaking/ laying licensing considerations . They are supposed to be the market makers , not the market followers .

The whole process needs reviewed , but nobody cares as far as I can see , and the basis for returning SP's also needs scrutiny . Ultimately the only thing that will force action is falling attendances when punters realise there is no point in going on course with a view to getting value .
By:
monarch
When: 17 Aug 16 19:10

Aug 17, 2016 -- 5:06PM, CALLING CARD wrote:


true monarch but are ya not stretching it a bit saying to win a monkeydara, tracks , tockey , jimmy hayes. baker. coffey , dinny gould, john carey , cummins , mcgrane , mcdonnell all work there and in my experience a monkey would not put the fear of god in any of thembut i agree midweek has shot its bolt big time


Maybe just a bit, but know of occasions it has happened. Mostly  at brutal midweek meetings where attendances have fallen through the floor. Agree there is still bookies there willing to take the punter on to a certain degree. Their becoming more and more of a rarity now though. Real shame.

By:
kavvie
When: 17 Aug 16 21:21
a guy standing might lay say an 1/1 fav for a monkey on the machine,just to take a position.the taker might be the lad beside him.. some might think thats not happening frequently buts it is..the whole thing is a house of cards
By:
shaneee
When: 17 Aug 16 23:32
punters are not stupid anymore. gone is the day when you can lay 2 monkeys and its 3.25/3.5 on machine. walk into any betting ring in ireland and people are on their phones comparing betfair prices and prices on the boards. how is there such a discrepency between english and irish markets in the minutes leading up to a race? some of the irish meetings are pathetic not even €30,000 matched with 6 minutes to post. there is no incentive to go racing in ireland too the midweek meetings.
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 18 Aug 16 01:57
backing live bookies prices on irish racing where horses are 10/1 or bigger is pure robbery.......compare them to betfair and there is average 5 points diff for 10/1-20/1 and usually 10 pts bigger for those 20/1 or bigger.
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 18 Aug 16 02:06
the fixed odds betting model is dead.......it cant fund racing...........irish racing is propped up by the tax payer and uk prize money is patethic.........Qatar has now come in to save the group 1 prize money in UK......and to think the fixed odds layers now wont take proper bets...........the whole thing is a joke...........it should have been a tote monopoly on course, off course and on line from day one..........fixed odds betting should never have seen the light of day......
betfair exchange is good but do we really need it?..........the answer is no. a strong tote market like they have elsewhere would do fine.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 18 Aug 16 12:15
The Irish Tote has never made money and contributes nothing to Irish racing.

If you gave them a monopoly they would still lose.
By:
monarch
When: 18 Aug 16 12:25
Did a group of bookies not set up a new association a couple of years back? Think with the intention of trying to improve things in some way or other. Not sure who even headed it up. Or anyone any idea what if anything happened with them after?
By:
CALLING CARD
When: 19 Aug 16 14:18
yes Monarch the PBA they are called, the set up came about after a rift within the INBA over the election of a commitee.
PBA ARE MADE UP MAINLY OF RAILS BOOKMAKERS WHO CONSIDER THAT AS THEY TURNOVER THE MAJORITY OF FUNDS ARE ENTITLED TO RUN THE ASSOCATION.
probably a fair point in truth, the small bookmakers held a coup d'etat at an agm and swung power in their favour
i think the rift healed and a new assoc was formed , i stand to be corrected though.
brain dead i agree a tote monopoly is an option but not at 25-30% takeout
at least when u have a bet at fixed or bog you know ur potential return
have a look at the tote returns and their take from pick 6 pools etc unreal , i am sure all bookies on/off course would love a 30% margin
By:
kavvie
When: 19 Aug 16 14:32
people talk about the "tab" in australia as a good model but the take out there is big also.having said that its v popular there with hugw turnover and its fed into a lot of pubs..
By:
CALLING CARD
When: 19 Aug 16 14:36
Kavvie thats the whole secret , in france there are betting cafes.
surely with a licensed lotto terminal in most shops a weekly bonanza race could be run with a jackpot
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 19 Aug 16 15:25
" I agree a Tote monopoly is an option but not at 25 - 30% takeout "

Calling Card understands betting so its hard to credit how he could pen that sentence.
They aren't making money with that takeout so would just lose more with a smaller takeout.

A Tote monopoly can only work in new markets,punters in Ireland are used to bookmakers so unlike France won't tolerate a lesser service.
By:
CALLING CARD
When: 19 Aug 16 15:35
wildman
its the costs that are crippling the nanny goat not the margin
vastly overstaffed and very inefficient
By:
RoyalAcademy
When: 19 Aug 16 16:45
Tote Ireland (no 2015 figures available) crow about rising turnover but it's exclusively from overseas operators betting into Irish markets (incl placepot)with miniscule margins to the Tote. Turnover increased by almost 11% in 2014 but gross margins fell from 12.5% to 11%.

They effectively broke even in 2103 and 2014 (on turnover of almost 60m!!!!) and there's possibly hidden subsidies they do not have to pay such as head office costs or facilities at the track. They returned just 109,000 to all non HRI tracks on their "reward" system. They sponsor a few races, but this is Peter robbing Paul. Tim Higgins a rather elusive figure and they have no presence in the media. Even the Boils jackass makes some mark.

The tote monopoly horse bolted many years ago but I never once heard anyone in authority say we need to take on the Paddy's of this world with their bleeding dry of the populace for the sake of the "markets". Only radical policy changes would ever solve the taxpayer subsidy conundrum. The tax on non-resident operators seems to be working but horse racing an ever-declining slice of that pie. Semi-state means semi-stupor.

Taxes could be levied on sales, stallion fees etc. The Wildenstein dispersal will be a huge benefit for Goffs in October and November but it will be tax neutral save for 12.5% on the Goffs profits. We do have a very vibrant industry outside the racecourse but the "haves" assiduously avoid helping the "have nots". The scandal of TV money exclusively going to the pockets of racecourses and not prize money is some joke. Best to rely on the workriders of this world to keep the small man in business. The fudge on stallion fees saw off that negative publicity brilliantly.
By:
monarch
When: 20 Aug 16 20:53
Anyone know if johnny dineen is still on the go? Havent gone racing in ireland in a while so don't know.
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 20 Aug 16 22:29
tote monopolies in HK, france, japan and australia are about 15-20% i think!............no one is advocating a tote monopoly of 25%........making nasty comments about tote ireland is just plain stupid...........the only way an effective tote can operate if it is something like a monopoly so stop making stupid comments that they contribute nothing. how are they supposed to compete with paddy powwow offering early prices, money back as a free bet if second etc. this forum is supposed to be for adults, not children.
how can anyone advocate the existing model be maintained when irish taxpayers are paying for the prize money and Uk prize money is patethic.............the firms dont take real bets anymore.........they wont allow successful punters in the door.
racing in hong kong, japan and australia is top notch (allthough aus does have on course bookies)..........they get huge crowds and have great prize money........they dont have the integrity issues we have and dont have debates every year about how the bloody game will be funded.
By:
gemini01
When: 20 Aug 16 22:32
John Dineen i think had packed in bookmaking before it completely collapsed on its face, although the last time i was at the Chelts festival 2015, he was making a book there, in fairness to the man, he formed his own opinion and went with it unlike the keyboard warriors nowadays who consistently wont lay a bet unless is bigger on the computer screen..
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 20 Aug 16 22:40
firms might eventually take over the whole thing. makes no diff for irish racing.........the prices beamed into the shops are beyond patethic......anyone backing show prices >5/1 on irish racing need their head checked. some rip off.
By:
Kelly
When: 20 Aug 16 23:27
In any debate about betting in various parts of the world , national characteristics enter into the equation . American racing to me is soulless , due mainly to fact that virtually all the tracks are left handed and dirt , so one track is no different from another essentially . Something must work though in USA , because the prize money is excellent .

Have been to the races in Hong Kong , they have the Hong Kong Jockey club running the racing ( and some say having a big influence in that jurisdiction ) .  The takeout is probably between 15 and 20% , odds displayed pre race show pools before deduction ( just to fool the punters I suspect ) , I did not consider having a bet when I figured out the situation . The Chinese are regarded as mighty punters , but I think most of the betting there is off course ( in the shops run by the Jockey Club , and I think they also cover other sports such as soccer ) . Also they bet on a multiplicity of different markets on each race , and jackpots etc . Don't think it would suit the most of us .

Racing in Australia is well organised , but compared with us it is at the expense of the punter ( same comment applies anywhere there is a "state" monopoly ). The Tab takeout is I think between 10 and 15% , there are bookies but they bet to Galway and Dundalk overrounds . Been to 2 meetings in Australia , they are cheap for entry , which includes a race card giving all the runners and form for every race meeting that day in Australia . There is a race every 6 minutes somewhere which you can bet on with the Tab,  it resembles an open air betting shop . I got the impression that a lot of those attending the track were more interested in the "away" meetings than what was happening in front of them . Enjoyable experience though , again I had minimal bets  , but it did resemble our type of racing set up.

Irish Tote is a tuppeny halfpenny operation , for a variety of reasons . Someone should take the bull by the horns and organise an Irish state run exchange replacing the Tote  , but for goodness sake pick the management properly and keep the shysters out of the picture . The bookie scene is by all accounts dead , most of them are  exchange driven operators .

Continental Europe has lots of nations running racing to various levels , French being dominant . No bookies there though as far as I know .

Our racing is the best in the world ( GB included in that ) , for variety and competitiveness  , the bookies have to date been a big factor in the popularity of racing . We all like a  dynamic pricng structure model though  , bookies were doing that for centuries at no charge other than their over round . Now they more or less just follow the exchanges .  Eventually something sensible will emerge to suit the majority . If it doesn't , attendances and the industry will fade.
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 20 Aug 16 23:57
a tote by design can only operate when its has something close to a monopoly cause when a punter places a bet when price is 4.0...........the pool needs to be big enough to stop it going to 2.5.........so there is no point in criticising the irish tote when the market here is deregulated and there are fixed odds shops everywhere.......
i went to australian racing every satuarday for several years..........there overrounds are not galway types......they are signifcantly better than irish and very close to british and they have to take a bet....otherwise they are told to eff off by the regulators........off course cash betting is of course tote monopoly...........the markets are strong and u can have a decent bet on a satuarday meet without the price moving much

kelly, u then went on to praise our racing..........yes we have great racing, well bred horses running on the best racecourses in the world.........of that, there is no doubt but there is no point in praising the variety on offer to the punter (which is reducing due to shops being run like blue chips and knocking back punters) when the whole bloody thing is paid for by the tax payer in ireland............how long can that survive?..........and in uk the prize money group racing aside, is third world stuff............way behind america, france, hk, jp and aus............yes countries with tote monopolies............AGAIN, HOW LONG CAN THAT SURVIVE...........group 1 racing in UK is paid for by UAE and Qatar.............the money for jumps is shocking...........that is a consensus now.........even willy mullins said that about cheltenham..............UK AND IRELAND DO NOT HAVE A GUARANTEED FUNDING SYSTEM............IE TOTE MONOPOLY...............this has huge ramifications for integrity cause connections can only make it pay by pulling strokes, the prize money is poor...........im not sure the next generation will be punting on this stuff

american racing is unique in itself........dirt racing is not good for horses......i do watch it though, they have a great pattern system, big races on every week and they run their horses, dont rap them up in cotton wool. of the major racing countries, their tote has the biggest deductions, i do believe track casinos fund a lot of the prize money and not just tote betting..........

Australia are beginning to let the devil in.........online companies like bet 365 are allowed to operate which is a huge mistake by the aussie authorities........they have very good racing (horses not as good as ours) but their prize money is superb.........they are off their heads allowing punters to bet off course with online companies..........it will do nothing for their racing.

Hk and japan will never allow non tote betting and so they should not........they get huge crowds and their prize money is off the charts.

this remark will be beaten down but the first step for irish and uk racing is to make on course betting a tote monopoly.........get rid of the books.........then get rid of the fixed odds betting in the shops.......its the only way the game can be saved here in the long term..........online will be impossible to sort out.......a diff story........leave as it is. the big crowds that go racing in ireland and uk dont go for betting anymore........they go to get pissed.............thats a fact..........ALL the big punters are on here.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 21 Aug 16 00:51
How do you propose to get rid of the bookmakers ?

We had a glimpse of it in Leopardstown some time back,it was a fiasco.

Once punters have bet with bookmakers they won't accept a Tote monopoly,that's why you can't go back.
Even with a monopoly I think the Tote would still lose.

" all the big punters bet on here "
Not true.
Punters don't like this we make up our own rules,cancelling bets when it doesn't suit,snaffling accounts and applying ludicrous charges on someone who has the temerity to win.
By:
Kelly
When: 21 Aug 16 00:53
bdj , do the Aussie bookies return any kind of SP ?  I assumed that they had no need to return an SP because the TAB did that job essentially . The meetings I was at there was no queue for the bookies  , but I guessed that they only catered for certain punters who did not want to push the price down on their horse by having a substantial bet on the TAB .

As a lifetime punter I want the bookie model to continue , I hate betting unless I know the odds  , and it is very seldom I bet at SP . But I fear bookies as we knew them are a dying breed , largely because punters like transparency and the ability to "get on " such as offered by the exchanges  . But if the bookies wont lay people , the exchanges will ( commission and volume available factored in ) .
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 21 Aug 16 00:56
wildman......how do we get rid of theM........i have no knowledge of the law and betting regulations etc, all i know is will the tax payer fund racing forever?...........because the evidence is there for all to see............BOOKMAKERS, ON COURSE/OFF COURSE CANNOT FUND RACING.........it can only be funded properly by a tote monopoly.
getting rid of bookmakers will have no impact on punting.......99% of punters lose.........it all ends in tears.........after a few years they will not know the difference
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 21 Aug 16 01:01
Kelly, the bookies do return an SP...........next days paper will have SP next to tab prices.........when i was there, the internet was in its infancy so i assume now the sp will be next to tab returns on betting sites.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 21 Aug 16 01:01
The exchanges don't lay people,they match bets and have a no risk commission based profit.

The Sportsbook lays bets,not sure they are as fearless as some think.

I was at the Curragh today,dreadful weather,tiny crowd but at least one big punter,he drew as well.

Maybe it was Ana but a long time since I seen such an eye catcher as Wild Irish Rose in the first,have a look and note.
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 21 Aug 16 01:04
the oncourse bookies will eventually dissappear..........i dont see how they can make a living.........i dont know what will happen then......shops take over.........who knows
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 21 Aug 16 01:11
my experience from australia illustrates how a high street tote monopoly has no impact on the popularity of racing.........the tabs there were busier than offices here.........of course people do forecasts and other exotics but guys will have a punt on win only also.........some guys just do place only betting on tote and try to get a certainty up every satuarday.......the pools are strong and deductions about 17%.......at the course i used to bet with the books but i wasnt pushed about it.......i would still have gone racing if there were no books............the integrity down there is way ahead of ours.........u cant change tactics on a horse and not get questioned.......if u do a non jigger,u will get 6 mths minimum.............
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 21 Aug 16 01:30
Will the Tote pay double result.    No.
Will the Tote do BOG.                   No
Do Tab do any of these things ?

Do Betfair pay double result.   No
Bo Betfair do BOG.                 No

I've always looked on it as an unequal fight but its like a joust with the school bully,you nail him with one beaut in the full knowledge that retribution will be swift and sharp but oh what joy in that brief moment.
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 21 Aug 16 01:36
the funding and integrity of racing is the issue. its like asking premier league football players to play for 200 quid a week so we can watch for free and then expecting them not to gamble on the outcome.........
racing is about paying jockeys good money because they risk their lives......they earn peanuts here compared to the other major racing countries. owners and trainers deserve a better return also........and i want to believe what i see in front of me.........i dont take gambling very seriously, but i love racing. i hate to see major stables fiddling with their horses because the authorities dont pull them in. this is all due to not having a tote monopoly.
we will have to disagree on this one lads. but there will be a major shake up at some stage........maybe a minister will pull the plug on the handout some day.
By:
pa lapsy
When: 21 Aug 16 01:48
Everything is grand until it APPEARS you look as if you got stung ie a 1.02 tote dividend on a 7/4 placed chance or a 1.6 on the win,it is a customer lost,as said above it is betting in the dark,a punter simply has to know the odds they are prepared to strike a wager.
By:
monarch
When: 21 Aug 16 16:26

Aug 20, 2016 -- 10:32PM, gemini01 wrote:


John Dineen i think had packed in bookmaking before it completely collapsed on its face, although the last time i was at the Chelts festival 2015, he was making a book there, in fairness to the man, he formed his own opinion and went with it unlike the keyboard warriors nowadays who consistently wont lay a bet unless is bigger on the computer screen..


Have to say when i was betting on course he was probably the best. Seen him at cheltenham last november meeting and he was still going strong. Some man to work a race. Would take buckets of money if he formed an opinion

By:
CALLING CARD
When: 22 Aug 16 12:15
FALLON back in the UK and riding out for Haggas, so much for the theory that he was behind O Callaghans strike rate .
23 books Saturday and 35 yesterday, i had a bet with a rails book maker in the last and per the ticket received he had only taken 120 bets that day . jesus hard to make it pay for him.
how do they get away with running a Derby second so unfit ffs, schooling ground
By:
rock piper
When: 23 Aug 16 23:47
Why you bother going to the expense of time and money of standing on course and clicking on here, when you can lay on your couch and send a robot out to trade the horses, if you think you have a technical or fundamental edge.
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