LEOPARDSTOWN

Nice summary.
After backing Papas Way last time couldn,t go near it again,seems to sulk if he is hassled and looks one paced enough to boot.
In the 6th was quite taken with Tribal Path last time, not too often an aw horse handles heavy,think it will again try to lead all the way and whether he will last is another story.
Surprised Tramore is on, desperate day in Cork and will surely be tough going there.

JOHANNES A NON RUNNER AS PREDICTED , HARD TO RUN WITH A BROKEN LEG

Very good write up! Jet Setting has been smashed up small money at 20.00 in 7.2! Might be hard to peg back from the front but price gone now

This yard seems to have a gamble most weeks Trident...

Breeding suggests Alice springs wont go in the ground! Connections were worried about her on yielding at Keeneland last backend. I cant believe shes evens!!

Mighty Legend 5's bol

3rd ?

I am laying True Solitaire.

Described by the yard as 'Only a rat of a yoke' before Galway last year, I have my reservations about what progress he may have made over the winter. DKW obviously has his string well forward, but this I feel is one to take on.

Backed Idaho in the 3.50.

True Solitaire

"He's a tough cookie that was very consistent all season. All being well, he'll reappear in the 2,000 Guineas Trial Stakes at Leopardstown and we'll go from there with him. I can see him getting a mile-and-a-quarter and he'll always be well suited to a sound surface."

Bolger's filly in the next is a ridiculous price, will handle the ground, step up in trip will suit, has race fitness and is a game little filly.

Ceol Na Ghra at fancy prices e/w in a field of nine

Also Tribal Path in the 4-55, 2nd & 4th have come out and won since

Well done gamble landed Im HAPPY!

but price gone now...18's into 9/2 then 11/2 at the off.

welds is very nice..

anyone else getting problems trying to post? log in problems or saying your not allowed to post?..ive had to rest my chrome book lots of times just to post on betfair? not on any other sites?

Yes, logging in --- changed my password just in case, and saved it separately to new computer.

Harzand --- Smullen - "Not suitable to Epsom (horse too heavy), Doncaster LEGER confident of a big run".

HARZAND stuck to his task really well to grind down Idaho and win the Group Three Ballysax Stakes in Leopardstown.
Dermot Weld's Gallileo colt was scrubbed along in sixth of the seven runners well over two furlongs from home.

He was then hard driven by Pat Smullen but began to stay on strongly coming to the last furlong. At this stage Idaho had set sail for home under Colm O'Donoghue but they were picked off by the resoluteHarzand inside the final 150 yards. Harzand, the 2/1 favourite, won going away by a length and a quarter.

Aidan O'Brien's Idaho was returned second at 8/1 with stablemates Beacon Rock and Cook Islands well back in third and fourth respectively.
Dermot Weld said: "It was a nice performance by him. He's a progressive big colt - a nice big horse.
“They went a very good gallop for the ground and he came home very well. It was a really good trial, the best trial run in Ireland this year.
"I love the way he switches off and is very relaxed. He's still green and has a lot to learn. Pat said he quickened in two strides.

“We'll see how he comes out of the race and make a decision in the coming weeks. He's very effective on that ground.
“I'd worry about him on very firm ground but good ground is not a problem. I think he'll prove very soon that he's not confined to testing ground. He's a good-actioned horse.
“As the year progresses he'll make a lovely horse. The best is yet to come. He'll progress gradually and is not the finished article.
“He's crying out to go a mile-and-a-half.”

Pat Smullen said: "He showed a lot of quality there because I couldn't tactically go the pace in a very good, strong gallop early. I just was tactically caught for a bit of speed early, lack of experience probably as well.
"I had to sit and suffer and then wait for a little bit of racing room on the turn. As soon as I met the rising ground I was never in any doubt, whether you would believe that or not, but I had never any doubt that I was going to get the horse in front then because he stays extremely well and he was always going to get to the line.
"It was run at a very true pace, there was no hiding place today and that brought out the best in our horse.
"I think he is too big and heavy to go around Epsom. He could make into an Irish Derby horse but personally I think he could be a Doncaster Leger horse. I think he has got all the qualities to win that race.
"I think he will be alright on a sound surface but we would never want extremes in that he would never want it firm. Nice ground I think he would be fine. He's a good fluent-actioned horse but he gets through that ground well but I definitely think he would be better on nicer ground. "

This was the third race of Harzand's career. He won his maiden in Cork after a fifth place on debut in Gowran Park.

Cracking little thread and e

Cracking little thread and e

Sorry.

Cracking little thread and everyone that voiced an opinion was fairly astute(and happy ).

Harzand was very likeable alright and made light work of the raise in class,not beyond the bounds of possibility Pat could be wearing that hat indeed.

Right before I go and get politely pissed
backed 3rd horse in the first but didn't really like his attitude , winner looks special
2nd  race a below standard 2000  guineas trial ,Fav is a pony by Oasis Dream so has no scope , winner can progress to maybe a group3 horse.
3rd The highlight of my day , as predicted Jet Setting made all and danced up .......
ballysax stakes never lets you down first 2 are very nice colts
5th Poor uncompetitive renewal Papas way is a sulker. Winner could end up a group horse
6th Race a very nice race, Fastidious an eyecatcher for me
best wine till last Laganore strode majestically past his rivals close to end a very nice and rewarding days racing
on another note
I have went racing the last 3 days
Wexford Friday , miserable weather with only 22 joe rooks in attendance 3 of whom called a halt midway. I was alarmed by the small crowd
Gowran yesterday , Wexford seemed busy in comparison 9 yes 9 bookmakers . I had a bet in the last race just to ticket check the best bookie in attendance Dara Fitz had done less than 100 bets on the day . hardly viable
Leopardstown today you could play football in the betting
what is wrong with people,we all moan about online and betting shops not laying but people wont go racing.#
I have never been cut back over the last 3 days and had a couple of tidy investments
I can see it develop like WOLVES on a Friday nite with 3 to 6 books in attendance and then full rings on big days
by the way I hope everybody Jet Setted today

There is virtually  no incentive to go racing nowadays.
Third world facilities will not be tolerated in this day and age, and as for betting with bookies, bar it's a real short priced horse, then you are taking a lesser price than you would if you were on an exchange . On course bookies are helping kill the game as they helped kill the greyhound game.

mincer you always are keen to bash racecourses and on course bookies, please expand how specifically they are responsible for the low attendance figures and lack of atmosphere.
I fail to see the correlation between 10-12 London greyhound stadiums closing and the trackside bookies been responsible.
I agree horses at 5/1 or over are at least 10% better odds to small stakes on the machine but not to each way bets or medium stakes.
you know quite well how difficult it is to get on with the Firms in the morning when their overpaid oddscompilers make a rick
agree that thurles et al are poor facilities but Leopardstown is good ,
be interested in your reasoning

A gem of a thread.

Calling Card gives as good a summary as you are ever likely to see.
Loads of hidden gems in it too.

The ever reliable Pa Lapsy puts up the nicely priced Tribal Path and adds the negative about Papas Way.

Trident agrees with Calling Card about Jet Setting.

Callitasucit puts up a lay of the odds on True Solitaire.

Koikeeper comes with another cogent reason to lay True Solitaire.

Goretski also puts up Tribal Path.


Mincer on whining is nothing new,presumably he has found a way of evading the premium charge.
His main concern when racing are toilet facilities and food and comfort for his Alsatian.

cheers Wildman , mincer is the Alsatian me thinks , needs somewhere to **** his leg
agree totally a great thread
no bitching whining or moaning
I am only interested in interacting with people who want to share knowledge/opinions
we can then agree disagree with each other in a civil manner
ante post tip. if ground stays soft for the Newmarket guineaS Blue De Vega will take some beating
fire brigades needed lately on walshes hill,
pa lapsy good backup to your suggestions
speith collapsing is refreshing toooo

You couldn't see Speith collapsing but you knew as soon as Westwood and Dustin Johnson saw the leaderboard they would collapse,three putting their favoured method.

Fair point to Mincer about each way betting and how little you can get on at these big prices.
Also agree with you about the man with the irritating laugh,he will bet you.

Calling Card
On course bookmaking is very difficult nowadays, margins are exceptionally tight and turnover is at an all time low. The demise of the betting ring is mainly due to these two reasons. The characters have gone from the game, the ones who had a go , the ones who backed their opinions with cash and also the ones who backed their opinions without cash.
Have a look at what's left now, bar a handful , the ring is made up of charisma free no marks. Plenty of them are basically intermediaries . Why would anyone want to have his bet on with an on course bookie only to see him recycle it on the net.
The reference to the greyhound industry was really to do with bookies fleecing punters for years with huge margins , it was a situation that people tired of , and now every greyhound stadium bar Shelbourne is deserted. People got sick of it and they have got sick of having their bets with people who very often hedge back into cyberspace to make a small profit .
Long gone are the days of punters putting their wits against bookies, now it's the bookies trying to eek out a living by penny pinching and flimping whatever customers they have left.
Who in the modern day ring would equate to the likes of Davey Meehan Sean Graham Terry Rogers Jack Rogers Malachy Skelly JP and David Hyland in his heyday, nobody is the answer.
The game is in some state when Yellow Jim is one of the stalwarts , a man of zero significance.

An intelligent post from mincer .  Dont go racing on course myself much nowadays  , and I have not been to the dogs since Dunmore closed many years ago . Bookies helped the demise of the greyhounds , used to go to Tralee while on holidays , maximum price 2/1 on every dog ( and some shorter) in a 6 dog race .

Sometimes 4 bookies at our only track left in Belfast/ district , occasionally only one or two ( reportage from one of the two ) .  Far cry from 200 "on the outside " when Celtic ( first track in Ireland ) and Dunmore were in their heyday in the thirties and forties .

I went to Shelbourne every night when I worked in Dublin as I lived close by .  Good markets then even on wet nights . Attendances of thousands were the norm at weekends , particularly if there was decent GAA activity in the capital . Gone forever though those days , wont be back .

Mincer
excellent thought's
i agree absolutely about the dog bookmakers taking the piss for 50 years 2/1 the field the norm. in fairness the Ted H came along it weeded the chaff out very quickly in Shel Pk
provincial tracks suffered badly with the foot and mouth and narrow minded bookmaking.
Horse Racing , while i agree that we have nowhere near the characters of yesteryear , the guys you mention were legends along with the Mulligans Paddy Meehan etc.
Did the advent of the machine and guys trading off the bookmaker accelerate the demise, bookies decided i can trade myself.
Most licence holders today stay behind the joint with a dolly bird or a guy accepting the bets while they trade away.
IN 2012 when i returned to Ireland to retire i wrote a letter to both Racing Publication about the general demise of betting and racing industry which was not printed .
I will attempt to post it here ,
When u mention characters who rememember's Sonny Molloy and multiplied odds double's. Johnny Murray or Tom Hallahan
Cheers Mincer for your thoughts

35 SEAVIEW
                                ARKLOW
                                CO WICKLOW
                                14TH SEPTEMBER 2012

DEAR EDITOR
I FEEL IT IMPORTANT TO LIST OUT SOME POINTS OF INTEREST WHICH HAVE COME TO MY ATTENTION OVER THE LAST FEW MONTHS VISITING IRISH RACECOURSES SINCE MY RETURN FROM THE UK. I HAVE CARRIED OUT LIMITED RESEARCH AND AM OPEN TO CONTRADICTION ON SOME MATTERS.
FIRSTLY LET'S BRING INTO FOCUS THE GOVERNING BODIES OF IRISH RACING. IS THERE A NEED FOR BOTH THE TURF CLUB AND HORSE RACING IRELAND.I UNDERSTAND THAT THE INTEGRITY SERVICES ARE PROVIDED ON A DAILY BASIS BY TURF CLUB OFFICALS AT OUR RACECOURSES AND THAT HRI ADMINISTER ENTRY, DECLARATION NAMING AND REGISTRATION SYSTEMS. COULD THESE BODIES NOT BE AMALGAMATED UNDER ONE BODY AND SOME DEADWOOD BE PRUNED FROM THEIR FOLIAGE.
WHEN COMPARING HRI/IRISH RACING FEES STRUCTURES WITH THE UK I SEE THAT THERE IS A LARGE VARIANCE IN ENTRY FEES A 12 FURLONG MAIDEN AT LISTOWEL COSTS €112 TO ENTER ALONG WITH AN ADDITIONAL €28 IF DECLARED, THE PRICE FUND FOR THIS RACE IS €14000 IN COMPARISON, A SIMILAR EVENT AT CHESTER WITH A £6500 (€7800) ONLY COSTS £15(€18) TO ENTER AND RUN.
WHILE WE RACE FOR A LARGER PRIZEFUND IT COSTS 10 TIMES AS MUCH TO RUN.
RIDING FEES ARE SIMILARLY APPROX 20% LESS IN THE UK.
PRIZEMONEY HAS DROPPED ENORMOUSLY SINCE 2004 , WHEN THE AVERAGE RACE PRIZE FUND FOR THE LOWER GRADE RACES WAS €12000 COMPARED WITH THE RECENT 47-65 12F ALL AGED HANDICAP AT GOWRAN WHICH WAS DIVIDED LEAVING ONLY €3850 AS FIRST PRIZE MONEY FOR EACH DIVIDE AND LOW AND BEHOLD THERE IS A DEAD HEAT SO ONLY €1925 BEFORE JOCKEY AND TRAINER ETC DEDUCTIONS . IN THE UK THE ADVERTISED FIRST PRIZE IS NETT OF ALL DEDUCTIONS.2 YEAR OLD MAIDENS SEEM TO HAVE INFLATED PRIZE MONEY . AT LEAST 90 % OF ALL 2 YEAR OLD MAIDENS ARE WON BY ONLY 6/7:  STABLES AP O BRIEN JS BOLGER JM OXX K PRENDERGAST DK WELD  D WACHMAN GM LYONS. THE OWNER BASE ENJOYED BY THESE POWERFUL IS NOT RELIANT ON AN EXTRA FEW GRAND IN PRIZEMONEY AND ARE ONLY TRIALLING POTENTIAL GROUP OR CLASSIC HORSES. GM LYONS T STACK PD DEEGAN ANDY OLIVER AND A FEW OTHERS RACE 2 YEAR OLD COLTS MAINLY  HOPING TO SELL TO THE LUCRATIVE HONG KONG MARKET. HIGH OCTANE A RECENT GOWRAN PARK WINNER WILL MOST LIKELY BE SOLD LIKE THE TRAINERS  MARCH ON ROME WHO WON LAST YEAR AT LIMERICK. ANDY OLIVER OWNERS  MUST HAVE GOT A LARGE PRICE FOR FIRST CORNERSTONE AFTER HIS WIN AT TIPPERARY. MY POINT IS THAT IF A TRAINER/OWNER OUTSIDE THE GOLDEN CIRCLE CAN WIN A MAIDEN THEY WILL GET VERY WELL REWARDED WITH A  SALE AND DONT NEED INFLATED PRIZEMONEY.
TURF CLUB AND THE CURRAGH RACECOURSE COMMITTEE LOOK AFTER THE CURRAGH TRAINING GROUNDS. THERE IS A CHARGE LEVIED ON ALL HORSES IN TRAINING WITH TRAINERS WHO HOLD CURRAGH LICENCES AT A RATE OF €350 PER QUARTER PER HORSE.
WE REGULARLY SEE TRAINERS FINED FOR NOT RETURNING HORSES IN TRAINING. AT NEWMARKET THESE CHARGES £100(€120) PER MONTH CHARGED MONTHLY WORKING OUT 14 % CHEAPER IF A HORSE IS IN TRAINING FOR A 12 MONTH PERIOD AND EASIER TO PAY FOR THE OWNER AS ITS MONTHLY.
WHEN HRI ADMINISTER THE ENTRY SYSTEM AND PUBLISH THE WEEKLY RACING CALENDER AND FORM BOOK THEY PUBLISH EVERY 3 MONTHS A FORFEIT LEVIED ON ALL HORSES IN TRAINING WITH TRAINERS WHO HOLD (DEBTOR) LIST. THIS MAKES FOR INTERESTING VIEWING AS QUITE LARGE AMOUNTS CAN APPEAR. WHY ARE ENTRIES ACCEPTED FROM PEOPLE WHEN THEIR ACCOUNT IS IN DEFAULT AND HAS HRI ANY RECOURSE IN COLLECTING THESE BAD DEBTS. ON A SIMILAR POINT MOST TRAINERS WILL REVEAL THAT THEY ARE OWED SUBSTANIAL AMOUNTS OF MONEY , HAVE THESE TRAINERS ANY RECOURSE WHEN LOSING AN OWNER WHO LEAVES BEHIND AN UNPAID BILL AND MOVES HIS HORSE ELSEWHERE, SURELY HRI SHOULD WHEN NOTIFIED OF THIS CHANGE SHOULD LIAISE WITH THE PREVIOUS TRAINER TO CHECK  IS EVERYTHING IN ORDER BEFORE TRANSFERRING A HORSE INTO ANOTHER TRAINERS NAME.I HAVE NOT ENOUGH KNOWLEDGE ABOUT ITM'S RECENT DEBACLE WHEREBY MICHAEL O HAGAN WAS PROMOTED AND DISMISSED FROM OFFICE ALL WITH IN A VERY SHORT SPACE OF TIME TO COMMENT OTHER THAN TO ASK HOW DID THIS HAPPEN.
THE FIRST THING I NOTICED WHEN RETURNING TO IRISH RACECOURSES WAS THE VAST REDUCTION IN BOOKMAKER NUMBERS.
A BIT OF BACKGROUND RESEARCH REVEALED THE FOLLOWING
LICENCING: WHEN A BOOKMAKER APPLIES FOR A LICENCE HE MUST FIRST ATTAIN A TAX CLEARANCE CERT  , THEN A CERTIFICATE OF PERSONAL FITNESS FROM A LOCAL SUPERINTENDANT FOLLOWED BY A STATE LICENCE AND ONLY THEN A PERMIT FROM HRI TO BET. THE BOOKMAKER PAYS A FEE OF 5 TIMES DAILY ADMISSION AS RENT FOR HIS RACECOURSE ALONG WITH .5% OF TURNOVER BY DIRECT DEBIT MONTHLY TO HRI. HE MUST ALSO HAVE IN PLACE A CASH DEPOSIT TO COVER POSSIBLE NON PAYMENT OF THESE FEES.HIS POSITION ON TRACK IS KNOWN AS A PITCH AND THESE ARE REGULARLY SOLD BETWEEN BOOKMAKERS , EACH TIME A SALES IS CONDUCTED THE RACECOURSE RECEIVES A FEE EQUIVILANT TO 25% OF THE SALE VALUE WITH A MINIMUM OF €500 PAYABLE BY THE PURCHASER BEFORE COMMENCING BUSINESS, IF A BOOKMAKER DECIDES TO JOIN THE RING AT THE END OF THE LINE HE MUST PAY A FEE OF 10% OF THE ANNUAL PICH FEE FOR THAT RACECOURSE(5 TIMES DAILY*NUMBER OF MEETING /10).JUST TO CLARIFY I UNDERSTAND THAT A PITCH IS A RIGHT TO RENT A CERTAIN POSITION WITHIN THE BETTING RING FROM THE RACECOURSE ON A DAILY BASIS.IF THERE IS A MOVEMENT OR CHANGE IN A RING A SENIORITY LIST ORIGINIALLY COMPILED IN 1945 IS USED TO DETERMINE PITCH POSITIONS.HRI COLLECT A PRINTOUT OF TURNOVER FROM EACH BOOKMAKER AFTER EACH RACE TO COLLATE THE TAX/LEVY DUE FROM THEM AND PUBLISH TURNOVER FIGURES.MOST BOOKMAKERS WITHIN THE RING USE THE RDT BETTING SYSTEM LINKED TO **** AS PROVIDED BY TRAXX.IT THIS SYSTEM ALLOWS BOOKMAKERS TO HEDGE DIRCTLY INTO **** OR LAY BETS FROM **** , THESE FIGURES APPEAR SEPARATELY ON THE HRI PRINTOUT, HOWEVER THESE HEDGING BETS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO REDUCE TAXABLE TURNOVER IN THE SAME WAY HEDGING BETS WITH OTHER BOOKMAKERS ARE.
NOW A FEW OBSERVATIONS
WHY DO MOST BOOKMAKERS HAVE TWO LAPTOPS SET UP AT THEIR PITCH?, MY OPINION IS THAT THEY ARE TRADING ON BETFAIR AND NOT RETURNING THESE BETS FOR LEVY PURPOSES.A SELECT NUMBER OF BOOKMAKERS ONLY PRICE THEIR BOARDS FOR MAYBE 1 OR 2 RACES PER DAY BUT ARE SEEN BEAVERING AWAY ON THE EXCHANGES.,,,
AS ALLUDED TO EARLIER TRAXX.IT PROVIDE SOFTWARE SUPPORT TO THE MAJORITY OF IRISH BOOKMAKERS ON A DAILY BASIS AT AN AVERAGE CHARGE OF €25 PER DAY. THIS COVERS THE INTERNET CONNECTION TO **** AND PROVISION OF DAILY RUNNERS.ON MONDAY LAST AT GALAWY A WALK AROUND THE RING REVEALED THAT MAYBE 48-50 OF THE BOOKMAKERS PRESENT WERE USING THAT FACILITY.THIS AMOUNT TO A DAILY INCOME OF €1200-1250 FOR THE COMPANY. ARE TRAXXIT A LICENCED SOFTWARE PROVIDER AND DO THEY HOLD A CONTRACT WITH THE ASSOCATION OF IRISH RACECOURSES TO CONDUCT BUSINESS  AND IS THE DAILY FEE A REFLECTION OF THEIR INCOME.THE REMAINDER OF BOOKMAKERS USE EXANTE SOFTWARE WHICK IS LINKED TO BETFAIR AND THE SAME QUESTIONS APPLY.
THERE IS A LONGSTANDING TRADITION OF BOOKMAKERS USING TIMBER BOXES AND TIMBER FRAMES TO STAND UPON AND SUPPORT THEIR LAPTOPS ETC.. THESE ARE RENTED ON A DAILY BASIS FROM 3 OR 4 SUPPLIERS IN THE COUNTRY ON A REGIONAL DIVISION.THE DAILY COST IS USUALLY €20 .AGAIN ARE THESE PEOPLE LICENCED AND ARE THEY PAYING A FAIR FEES TO CONDUCT BUSINESS TO AIR?.40 BOOKMAKERS YIELDS AN INCOME OF €800 DAILY.IF A PUNTER OF BOOKMAKER HAS AN ACCIDENT WITH ONE OF THE PIECES OF EQUIPMENT PROVIDED WHAT IS THE POSITION REGARDING LIABILITY.AT A RECENT NAAS MEETING PUNTERS WERE USING SPARE BOXES TO GAIN VIEWING.THE INBA HAVE AN INSURANCE SCHEME IN PLACE FOR THEIR MEMBERS WHAT ABOUT THE BOX PROVIDERS???.
BETTING RINGS IN GENERAL.
IS IT TIME FOR A DRASTIC REVIEW OF THE BETTING RINGS IN GENERAL IN ORDER TO BREATH SOME LIFE INTO THEM
WITH NO RESERVED ENCLOSURE IN PLACE IS THERE A NEED FOR A RAILS AT THE CURRAGH LEOPARDSTOWN ETC?.TO GAIN A VIEWING POSITION AT THE CURRAGH LAST WEEKEND YOU HAD TO BE 15 STEPS INTO THE STAND PAST THE WINNING POST IN ORDER FOR VISION NOT TO BE BLOCKED BY UMBRELLAS. IF THE CURRAGH IS REDEVELOPED IN SOME SHAPE MAYBE A COUNTERSUNK BETTING RING OR 2 STRAIGHT LINES PUNCHESTOWN WOULD BE BETTER.
TOTE
WHEN FRENCH MONEY INFLATES TOTE POOLS WHAT MARGIN ARE TOTE IRELAND RECEIVING ON THIS TURNOVER??
WHAT DO THE TOTE PAY TO AIR ON A DAILY BASIS FOR USE OF RACECOURSE FACILITIES AND ARE THEY CURRENTLY IN PROFIT AND UPTO DATE WITH THEIR PAYMENTS.
IS A HIGH STREET PRESENCE NEEDED TO BRING TOTE PRODUCTS TO THE GENERAL BETTING PUBLIC OR MAYBE SHOPS THAT ARE LICENCED BY THE NATIONAL LOTTERY COULD BE ALLOWED TO TAKE BETS ON A DAILY BASIS USING THE LOTTO TERMINAL OR A SIMILAR MACHINE A BIT LIKE THE FRENCH BETTING CAFES.MAYBE THE OLD SWEEPSTAKES COULD BE REVIVED USING THESE TERMINALS ( THE LOTTO CURRENT HAS A DAILY MILLION EURO NUMBERS GAME)BUILT AROUND A WEEKLY LARGE FIELD HANDICAP WITH NUMBERS BEEN RANDOMLY SELECTED BY THE HUB .THIS MIGHT BRING PEOPLE TO RACING THAT DONT SEE THE LOTTO AS GAMBLING PERSAY.LETS NOT FORGET THE VIEWING FIGURES THAT RTE ACHIEVED WHEN THE CURRAGH DERBY WAS MOVIED TO A SATURDAY EVENING PRIMETIME SLOT. THE RACE COULD BE RUN DURING THE WINNING STREAK PROGRAMME IN SUMMER .IS THIS A BETTER OPTION THAN ALLOWING FOBTS INTO HIGH STREET OFFICES.
BETFAIR
THERE ARE A MULTITUDE OF INVISIBLE LAYERS ON BETFAIR , THESE ARE UNLICENCED A LEVY OF THEIR PROFITS RACE BY RACE NOT DAILY WOULD YIELD A HEALTHY DIVIDEND.
RACECOURSES
THIS IS 2012 AND CHARGING €40 IN DERBY DAY IS A JOKE.€17 FOR A SATURDAY EVENING MEETING A LIMERICK UNREAL. SURELY MOYGLARES RECENT GATE SPONSORSHIP SHOWS THE WAY FORWARD.
ANYWAY THESE ARE MY OBSERVATIONS ON A VERY UNHEALTHY INDUSTRY

                        YOURS
                    CANICE  MORAN

above it a letter i wrote in 2012 , name and address not correct of course
great post Mincer i will pick up on some things later

Some salient points there indeed Calling ,bet the response is still in the mail....

Times change.

People forget how little information we had years ago,no Betfair no morning prices.
If you wanted a decent bet years back you went to the racecourse.

I remember getting a tip for a bumper horse in Naas,a team of us travelled.
We waited outside Sean Graham's stall for him to price the bumper,we were packed tight with a mixture of punters and bookies runners.
He chalked up 20 then 16 next 4 then a surge,four monkeys ticket 61,800 to 2 down to pal,price rubbed 7/2 another flurry of bets.
Our horse was number 16,we were hoping for double figures.
As he priced he laid,four horses had already shortened by the time he got to our beast,he chalked a six,there was a surge he then put a line alongside it and and added a four,an audible groan followed,I walked away in disgust but one of our team strangely enough called Pa had three grand on it.

After the betting settled the horse went out to 5/2 and was beat.

We now here about percentages but what percentage was Graham betting to,no one really cared.
We now are betting into no profit books and the result is pretty much the same.

My own experience of laying on here gave me a new found respect for bookmakers,I was picking my lays,they have their lays picked for them.

The on course bookies back in the day bled racegoers dry. Betting to 160-170% was standard practice and most punters didn't even notice.I had a conversation with 2 prominent bookmaker brothers (on course and 3 shops)one night and I brought up the subject of overrounds. They didn't know how to work out the percentages and what's more they didn't care and were shocked that I'd expect them to know.They just looked at the board of the bookie beside them. They were reared in a mansion on Aylesbury Road (now an embassy) paid for by punters.
When the pitches in UK were opened up to the free market the Irish bookies fell over themselves in the rush to buy. Money was no object, the UK bookies couldn't compete. The whingeing they did for years after about how they couldn't make UK racing pay was a joy to behold.
Things are much better now but the racecourse atmosphere is lacking. With all the SIS money they have is there really any need to charge 15/20 euro entry fee these days?

I'm not a real "Pa" Wildman,the "Lapsy pa" is a Cork expression to descibe someone with a bit of a "want" in them,apt enough as feckneejit was already taken.
In response to Calling Card which were good points but is the country ever going to get better?
Too many people are near the poverty line and struggling,with ATR and televised pictures in the shop there is little need to go to the course.
I understand the kick of the cash betting and the bobs in your pocket but in an awful tough game, a punter has to give himslf some chance of trying to get the best value for his buck,the act you mentioned the two computers says it all.

Its all about percentages nowadays , firstimevisor . And the bean counters who hold sway in the multiples .  Any "traditional" bookie who might aspire to being an old style "layer" is easily put in his box at board meetings or the like by figures presentation , and the ability to win at every turn has been tuned into by all bookies , massively aided by computing power .  We have to accept them as business men now , as against sportsmen who happened to finish on a different side of the fence to punters .

Thing I dont like about the new "arrangements" is that they wont lay any punter who they have detected knows what he is doing and can sniff out value . And they identify serial losers and no hopers and encourage them to continue betting .  This  despite alluding to problem gambling solutions , so how do you allow some guy to lose 1.75 million , not an Arab sheik with bottomless pockets ( although one of the biggest allegedly was taking million pound bets daily from someone in that part of the world , reportedly he lost in excess of 300 million , hadn't a clue , but oil prices per barrel presumably were much higher than nowadays ). 

And the apologists / front men who pop up on our screens telling us about offers and big bets laid and "why would you bet with anyone else" .  Simple answer to that one , "because you wont even lay me 25p , below minimum stake , go away .

Went racing in Australia some years ago , Saturday meeting on the Gold Coast . 3 Aussie to get in ( less than "1.50 or 2 euros , and included a racecard with runners etc for most of that days meetings all over Australia . The big percentage takeout  paid for that , question is do we want that . Hong Kong Jockey club have a huge say in the economy / running of their part of the world , takeout of 20% or more per race .

Bookies increasingly react to "local " situations , BOG only in certain shops ( adjacent to feared competitors ) , stake limitations , small print ( staff dont even know about these and rail when asked ). But spare us the smiling front people and banner ads offers which only apply in some circumstances . And please tune into and play our non sporting activities where we cant lose , we wont ever close that account even if we bar your sports betting .

My first experience of the new electronic boards  in England was at Sedgefield a few years ago , I wanted to have £300 on a 3/1 shot , The first bookie refused point blank ,then I went next door and the horse had gone from 3/1 without a bet been struck into 11/4 ,I walked a little futher down the line and it was now 5/2 and I still couldn't get on ,it ended up 2/1 and as sure as hell Nobody and I mean nobody had a bet ,I was first out of the blocks and had first call on the 3/1. I ended up having no bet I was that angry. The horse fell at the last,when I arrived home I went onto the main forum and blasted the bookies on here for their actions . Each and everyone of them denied it could happen , we know the truth today, some even suggested I had gone to the wrong layers ,we see it day after day now on course here , prices disappearing while bookies just stand there without ever having taken a bet . I'm heading to the Uk for a weeks racing next week , at least this time I know what to expect...

I used to go racing in England ( courtesy of travel associated with job ), mainly in London area , Ally Pally was still in operation and had evening meetings , Scobie and Lester etc . Not unlike racing in ireland then bookie wise , characters and variety of odds .

Things changed though over the yesrs , went to Sandown one Whitbread day in the nineties , and all the bookies had the same prices . Obviously the shape of things to come , and I guess its the same now all over these isles . Not going to change much , its ground zero now , all the angles have been exploited , and any "opportunities " fastened down . Blame the exchanges and computers if you like , its here to stay .

Where it all finishes is a matter of debate , just hope it does not yield the same result as is evident on the greyhound tracks , once a thriving sporting activity .  Now just an opportunity for male or female "stag" nights out as far as I hear .

Kelly,I was in Shelbourne last Sat ,family birthday , the place was full of French tourists who made it look a lot busyier than normal of a Sat,the bookies have killed the golden goose , having breed, trained, and owned greyhounds for years its only on specials days or if I'm otherwise bored would I go now, a sad state of affairs .

Why do you seem to bracket yourself in the punter category here Kelly when from reading various threads, that is not the case these days.

If you are to be believed and I do have some doubts, then you try to eek out value, via bigger prices against the exchange or extra place concessions.

If Bet365 were going overbroke in a race where they are 1/4 odds on say an 5/1 shot in an 8 runner conditions race on TV that was 6.0 in the win market but 2.0 in the place market, as can happen very often, you would be all over this bet based on what you are saying.

While it really should not matter what the punter is doing with the bet to the bookmaker, I would guess that most people would agree that someone that goes around 10-15 shops for the Masters looking for concessions or goes around the various sites looking for the mistakes and extra place concessions, is not a punter in the true sense of the word and not many have an issue with closing the likes of you down so punters like workrider, callit or wildmanfromborneo, who have opinions and back them, can get accommodated to a greater extent.

Temlett , unless you have been asleep for the last number of years , classifying myself as a punter has not been my agenda since 2002 .  Except that betting large sums might classify me as a punter in the bookies eyes . I am a ( traditional) punter about 3 or 4 times a year , rest of my time is value seeking and betting in running .  Betting in running however does classify me as a punter , as there is no safety net or contra activity .

Unfortunately there are only about 4 shops where I can seek out value due to chain takeovers , but at one stage we had 4 or 5 independents who often took a different view of markets to the "big boys " across the water . The fact that if you want a grand on Day ( say ) at 8/1 to win the Masters meaning you have to visit 10 or more shops says more about the bookies activity than me . Asking for a grand at 8/1 in one shop just would press so many panic buttons you could never go back to that shop . Partly because few of the shops are busy . The last 2 bookies I was in tonight were completely devoid of punters  , around tea time neither of them had a sinner in them when I went in  , and  there were some  decent football matches to bet on on TV this evening  , plus racing from Kempton .

The bookies are perfectly entitled to close down my accounts given that there are no rules governing their activity . I am still entitled to complain about the lack of rules and spurious advertising implying their sporting instincts are to give the punter a fair deal.

And tightening down SP markets , particularly in the big handicap races which attract the occasional punters is tantamount to stealing .

Traditionally punters lose , thats why some bookies lived in mansions in Aylesbury Road , there is no glory for me in being a punter unless you win , acting the big lad is no good unless you win, then you can walk tall . Winning is not easy  , but little and often tends to work on a daily basis if you are prepared to put in the effort .

kelly talks some game but as his selections on here have shown hes more on par with slickster than anyone else and as tolmi showed on the over rounds thread his knowledge of the industry is lacking too

DJ (much missed) forensically dissected him on on a few separate occasion.   It was  akin to watching a man being waterboarded.  There was nothing but long-winded waffle when he was allowed come up for air.

Anyone who cant see the logic of my posts is of no interest to me . It just proves there are none so blind as those who cannot see . I am not a tipster , any betting activity I indulge in has but one goal : profit . I am not in it for the sport ( although inevitably having a bet on any sporting activity heightens the enjoyment ).

The days when some well informed people who were also good judges made a living from betting has gone forever , bookies just wont allow it now . I twigged that early on , some think they can beat the bookies .  They might on a particular day , but at the end of the season if they have had a winning streak , they will be in receipt of a letter/ e-mail which says "dear customer , having reviewed your betting activity with us ..etc etc".

Assertions re knowledge of betting scene are inconsequential , nobody has ever been able to dispute any comments I have made over the years in terms of facts , everybody is entitled to their own opinions , and Ozys comments are as usual , fatuous .

The one and only time Betfair published figures I was ( at that time ) in the top 1.5% in terms of money won in that year . And I wasn't at the lower end of the cut off point. Guess it was a fluke . I changed tack after that though , its better to be a loser on paper than a winner ( just ask those saddled with premium charge ) .

I have been on Betfair since 2001 . Still sane , still active , and happy with it . Reckon I will just keep trucking , the numpties just dont annoy me . Anyone who took the time and effort to follow any advice I have offered will have made money , unless they are an idiot or unduly greedy.

Re my selections on here ( ref TheWasp ) only selections I have put up recently were Bubba in the Masters ( beaten like 88 others in the field , so I am in good company) , and 4 Hail Mary selections at huge odds , all of which showed a profit . And as Temlett avers , I am not a punter essentially , and everyone should by now know that , I strike bets to make profit , and most often trade out , so it seldom matters whether or not my bets actually come up as winners . Twice in 15 years I have put up information I had regarding the prospects of two horses I was backing , both won , nobody said thanks , and the begrudgers complained re lack of time . The school I grew up in , where we got good information re horses ( and dogs) , you did not pass on information until connections had their money on , that is still my mantra  , and I had applied it on here .

Kelly (or anyone who's interested),

Can I ask your opinion please (not a trick question):

Assume I have backed a poke at 251 (for €100) at a major and after a miraculous Day 1 (joint leader) he's down to 34.

What kind of strategies should I consider do you think?

kellys philosophy  trade out at the lowest price matched its that simple

Kelly should respond asked and answered.

Its like a jungle here.
Mincer attacks Kelly in his usual intolerant way.
Ozymandius who has been trying to ingratiate himself with Mincer joins in the attack.
The smell of blood attracts TheWasp who flits in.
Seeing the numbers the passionate about being compassionate RoyalAcademy decides its safe to enter the fray.

It would be great here if everyone stuck to talking about betting or odds or form or anything to do with such even if its about some flies preferring wallpaper to paint or whatever. I cant understand why people have to descend to personal attacks - perhaps it demonstrates a weakness. OK if someone comes on say after-timing its only fair that they get both barrels but this continuous stuff gets on my goat. Nothing wrong with a bit of harmless banter either.

RoyalAcademy decides its safe to enter the fray....................quickly followed by Enoch Powell

Fair point i thought from Mincer originally,it was answered back and well past the time of moving on without the two goons sticking their oar in.
Thread started off with over a hundred views and no replies,when the replies came weren't they very good.
The OP nailed it when he commented on the lack of bitching and moaning on the thread,it was very positive at the time but as regards the part of trying to pool opinions civilally you are up against people that cannot do that but want to be heard all the same.

You looked left,you looked right saw the coast was clear so stuck the boot in.

You didnt want your question answered,you wanted to set a trap and have Ozymandius and company descend in unison praising your entrapment.
Kelly a bit long in the tooth to fall for that.

that's right. I think that Kelly is such an idiot that I have to explain its not a trick question. Give the man some credit Wildman, he strikes me as someone well capable of thinking for himself.

Admittedly, the web brings some odious people on-line and we have to accept that we're stuck with them or just move on. You, on the other hand, are the great charlatan: spouting rubbish you don't believe; just enjoying the power of anonymity. I seriously had to laugh when you called this place a "jungle"; are you getting confused and addled reading about Calais?

maybe you might offer some words of wisdom on the question posed as an unreconstructed "back only" man? I'm seriously interested in replies albeit you have wrecked the question now.

I've stated my views,I don't believe in trading but then I'm not a professional.

RoylAcademy thinks he's enlightened yet his mind is so closed that when someone has differing views he sticks his head in the stand saying its not really so.
Views he doesn't like should be suppressed and anyone holding them are either stupid or they don't really hold those views.

i remember kelly giving the 2 horses on here.i remarked to him at the time about the lack of  thanks etc...they would have been queueing up for a pop if both or either had lost..

Thanks for the verification , kavvie .  You must have a good memeory , it was a long time ago I put those up .

Royal Academy , unlikely I would be having £100 on a 250 shot , thats a liability of £25,000 , and for sure none of the so called bookies we have been discussing would have laid a bet like that without you showing them your passport , your birth certificate , your electricity bill , and verification of what you had for breakfast . Aside from that , if I had a bet like that I would have traded out before the low of 34 probably . I might have kept a bit in hand in the hope of lower odds subsequently , but as one of my mantras is "a bird in the hand" .....

I did have £50 on a 100 shot in the National , only bet , on here, just for interest ( and also arising from previous interest / activity on same horse over last couple of seasons ) . Backed it in running too at 350 , laid back most at between 60 and 110 in running , horse was nowhere , always out the back , lost a few quid overall , but it was the National so not absolutely normal behaviour here . Bookies got none of my money though . I am not that big an idiot .

keeping up the theme of racecourse reports

limerick yesterday.

artificial crowd due to students(not as many as expected).

14/15 bookmakers, all lost. the ppowers rep betting into the market accounted for about 30% of most of the turnover for the cream cookies. this rep bet 5 winners. his only loser was the bumper fav, which helped reel back some of the losses for the men on the boxes. cash punters(deuce or monkey players) almost non existent, the regular monkey/grand man from offaly not present.

from an outside point of view, the sp's returned were a very fair reflection, no complaints on that count.

low level racing in general, Harvey was below me shouting home his  winner from the final flight, twas D Day for that horse. Andy Macs in the 2nd should pick up a race during the summer, and the Giggs bumper winner was the most striking individual from a physical perspective seen all day.

I watched one race from inside the broadcast truck.  Yesterday I can declare with 100% accuracy the time delays as existed from that fixture, as there were a multitude of screens in front of me.In one section of the studio, the live feed, the SIS output, and the ATR output were side by side.
SIS was 4 seconds behind live, ATR was 8 seconds behind live.

my son was there keen and i was in a shop.he rang me just to see where the delay was at.id agree..4 secs is on the small side.id say 4 at least..will they ever be actually live or v close i wonder.?

Anybody else think the ride by D O'R on the AJM winner a bit odd?,looked like he was betwixt and between.

As a  doornail