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Send.in.the.clowns
25 Jul 14 21:08
Joined:
Date Joined: 20 Feb 12
| Topic/replies: 710 | Blogger: Send.in.the.clowns's blog
Lets be honest nepotism at its finest. He has just given El Salvador the most braindead ride I have seen. Horse probably would never have won but it stays 2m 5f ffs - the only way it could win was to make it a stamina test - yet he gives fav an easy lead.

He is useless and would not get a ride at another yard.
Pause Switch to Standard View The Boy Joseph
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Report Ozymandius September 15, 2014 7:59 PM BST
I guess the problem with considering it all as a circle, for the straights which, are a big part of the track, the horse 5 length out runs the same distance as the horse on the rail.  I think.
Report frank60 September 15, 2014 8:01 PM BST
A gallent
Report frank60 September 15, 2014 8:02 PM BST
A gallant effert all the same Vubiant, well done
Report Send.in.the.clowns September 15, 2014 8:10 PM BST
Well done Frank
Report Vubiant September 15, 2014 8:10 PM BST
Good point Ozyma -but even if one divides my approximation by 10 it still gives one a few lengths extra.
Then again TGG also spent some time towards the middle /outer part of the course so that narrows it down a little more. It would be intriguing to get a valid calculation for how far each horse really ran.

If Australia had won by a neck or so -people would still have been surprised
given the general assumption that he would have confirmed the York form ( the race conditions being virtually identical) or even increased the margin a little since AOB said he wasn't fully wound up for York.

If however he covered a few lengths extra and carried a lb more -maybe he's still the moral winner ?
Report frank60 September 15, 2014 8:16 PM BST
My sentiments exactly. Vubiant....but not much consolation for the punters who took 30/100Sad
Report irish_guy_13 September 15, 2014 8:21 PM BST
The fact is the horse loss by jockey error, end off. Travelled too wide, kicked too soon, overweight and no idea where his main rival was at any stage. plus the horse is not half as good as they built it up to be, every year they come out with more superlatives  about another horse. It's boring.

Money making stallions is their objective and this horses value took a big dent until he proves otherwise in the mating barn.
Report Vubiant September 15, 2014 8:21 PM BST
Indeed frank -it must have been a wrenching Acca buster on a busy racing day when lots of punters bundle up the shorties.
My other thought was -if only one more runner ran -what an e/w bet TGG would've been for singles or multiples !
Report irish_guy_13 September 15, 2014 8:28 PM BST
same time for free eagles race can anything be read into that?
Report The Gotchee September 15, 2014 8:33 PM BST
There is too much pressure being put on Joseph. Pressure to ride at a weight 3 stone below his natural healthy weight and pressure every time he rides one of the stable superstars. The mental and physical strains are not good for the young lad. He should go to college and get an education rather than put himself through all that torture.
Report frank60 September 15, 2014 8:40 PM BST
The old e/way Thieves bet Vul ,i seem to remember Keen leader putting this type of bet over a period of 4weeks or so about 4years ago on an almost daily basis with the object of making a profit by the end of the 4weeks, IF memory serves he had a nice profit at the end of the it.
Report frank60 September 15, 2014 8:45 PM BST
interesting irish guy did,nt know that, free eagle was eased near the finish, It would be great if TGG,free eagle and aussie could meet before the end of the season.
Report kincsem September 15, 2014 8:47 PM BST
turning for 3 furlongs = 660 yards half circumference
turning for 3 furlongs = 1320 yards circle circumference
turning for 3 furlongs = 210 yards circle radius

turning for 3 furlongs running wide 5 yards = 215 yards circle radius
turning for 3 furlongs running wide 5 yards = 1351 yards circle circumference
turning for 3 furlongs running wide 5 yards = 675 yards half circle circumference

extra running wide 5 yards is about 15 yards  (675 yards - 660 yards)
extra running wide 5 yards is about 3 lengths

Confused
Report one to note September 15, 2014 11:53 PM BST
Re times of the two 10f races on sat -   different tracks were used
Report irish_guy_13 September 16, 2014 12:09 AM BST
thanks
Report kavvie September 16, 2014 12:53 AM BST
just a word about coolmore hyping up horses    camelot would have won the triple crown and would prob have been retired as a superstar only for a drugged horse beating it.australia would have been a dual derby winner and champion stakes winner only for (admitted) jockey error.so when they hyped up them 2 at least they wernt too far out?
Report neill d September 16, 2014 1:54 AM BST
Apologies for being so negative here but I just don't see it. Like everyone else, I thought Australia would win last Saturday but even had he achieved that feet in itself, my jaw wouldn't have exactly hit the floor. I think it is a symptom of the malaise that Irish Flat racing now finds itself in, that anyone was that excited about that card to begin with. With the number of Group 1 races around in the modern era, being a treble group 1 winning 3yo is no thing really. Any horse with a mid 120s rating could have done what Australia did this year. The Irish Derby is pretty worthless now sad as that is to say, either won in a canter by a 'star' or hotly contested by worthy but pretty limited horses by Group 1 standards.

2007    Soldier of Fortune    Seamie Heffernan    Aidan O'Brien    Magnier / Tabor / Smith    2:36.02
2008    Frozen Fire    Seamie Heffernan    Aidan O'Brien    Tabor / Smith / Magnier    2:31.96
2009    Fame and Glory    Johnny Murtagh    Aidan O'Brien    Smith / Magnier / Tabor    2:30.87
2010    Cape Blanco    Johnny Murtagh    Aidan O'Brien    Smith / Magnier / Tabor    2:28.68
2011    Treasure Beach    Colm O'Donoghue    Aidan O'Brien    Smith / Magnier / Tabor    2:33.26
2012    Camelot    Joseph O'Brien    Aidan O'Brien    Derrick Smith    2:43.96
2013    Trading Leather    Kevin Manning    Jim Bolger    Mrs J S Bolger    2:27.17
2014    Australia    Joseph O'Brien    Aidan O'Brien    Smith / Magnier / Tabor    2:33.19

That is a worrying recent roll of honour.

The Irish Champion Stakes (outside of Coolmore/Irish participation) if you look closely, also may well be a race in decline.

I thought the weekend was a bit of a bust myself, Free Eagle (a ballsier trainer would have had him in the Group 1) and Fiesolena (human story, poor enough Matron stakes really, would have loved to have seen Avenir Certain in this) being the bright spots. Gleneagles and JFK are good maybe brilliant horses, but the quality of the fields they are facing leaves a lot to be desired. British and French trainers seem intent to follow their own programmes, we aren't attracting them over and the lopsided nature of the power balance here means there are too many knock-over group races. Why can't they get Hannon to chance Ivawood at a seventh furlong with a full month to the Dewhurst or Middle Park? Why is Mark Johnston's Eshtidkaar rated 113 and with the Group 2 Superlative Stakes at Newmarket under his belt, running in another Group 2 at Doncaster last Saturday? Why is it that Ascot's executive can attract Animal Kingdom and Black Caviar while we can't get Brisish 2yos to cross the Irish Sea for our premier 2yo Group 1? The ground could be gone in October after all.

The horses that contested Arc trials day were eminently more interesting as a Group than those that took in our Champion Stakes. We had two (with hindsight) decent mid-twenties horses pulling a mile clear of exposed older animals exceedingly fortunate to have won Group 1s last season and this, Al Kazeem(poor year) and Mukhadram (poor jockeyship).

The media all week were killed dead telling us how we should support last Saturday as a day to showcase Irish Racing, and they get their crowd. However, there wasn't one race truly befitting of the occasion that this was supposed to be. TGG turned the tables and we got a good race in the end, but I wouldn't travel to watch Australia v The Great Gatsby before last Saturday and I still feel the same now. Neither Ascot or Longchamp would be happy with that Champion Stakes field for their showcase race so I don't see why we should be as overjoyed as everyone seemed to be at the weekend. Sport at its core is about competition and members of the Leopardstown executive, on radio all week, extolling the virtues of going to 'see' Australia last weekend..... would do better going away and trying to attract a better quality of entrant from abroad. We deserve that much.
Report Vubiant September 16, 2014 10:46 AM BST
Stonking great post -should be on the front page of the RP.
Report pa lapsy September 16, 2014 11:10 AM BST
Very good post(small flaw with Eshtidkaar though).
Slow to knock the weekend myself Neill,good attempt,no crystal ball for entries so no fault,clash with Doncaster and Longchamp no help but hard to find a slot. If the cards were swopped around it would have been better(in hindsight) imo.
Report callitasucit September 16, 2014 11:26 AM BST
They were a mile out with Camelot Kav. He didn't beat one horse that Famous Name would not have been favourite to beat.
Report kavvie September 16, 2014 12:15 PM BST
agree totally  callit but they nearly pulled it off as a triple crown winner...?  the opposition was awful for g1 all the way but his cv would have said"triple crown" 8f 12f and 14f
Report RoyalAcademy September 16, 2014 4:35 PM BST
Excellent post neill, like you find it hard to enthuse about irish flat racing as it seems it operate in some kind of bubble. I'm surprised the bubble survives with so many pricks inside.
Report Roger De Bris September 17, 2014 5:57 PM BST
One of the best posts I've read on here in a while neil d.

You won't hear any of that on RTE. No, everything is great. Hype it up, bring on all the executives to say how brilliant everything is.

Personally, I thought it was a joke that they could only attract 7 runners for the Champion Stakes. EMBARRASSING.
Report wildmanfromborneo September 17, 2014 7:15 PM BST
I like Neill D but his post is typical of a man who doesn't like flat racing.

What horses did Neill D expect to come.

The racing was top class on both days,we had good two year olds,stayers and sprinters and some great handicaps.
We had great crowds and a great atmosphere.

I watched the racing from Leopardstown,I think Joseph rode to instructions,great viewing.
I went to the Curragh again great racing,a special weekend.
Report neill d September 17, 2014 7:25 PM BST
Thanks lads, the short prices in the Champion Stakes & National stakes irked me Wildman. Plus the Matron was missing Esotorigue, Integral and sky Lantern who I think are probably the 3 best in Europe. It was the two Hannon horses (thanks Pa) in the National Stakes.

On the Champion Stakes front, I think we are struggling to attract the really great older horses from abroad, I mean the likes of a Zarkava, A Treve, Orfevre or a Frankel. The heavyweight, top echelon horses that run are nearly always STS, New Approach, Australia on Saturday. Yes we can get a Snow Fairy or Nathaniel, Ouiji Board et cetera..... but I don't think our Champion stakes was ever at any point in the plans of Treve at the start of the year, Frankel was the same, and I think that is a problem because we should aspire to be the best.

It was a great weekend in a lot of other ways and maybe I should moderate my tone a little as i wasn't there and didn't contribute, but TGG V Australia wasn't an exciting proposition to me at the time.
Report neill d September 17, 2014 7:29 PM BST
*The tip top horses that run are always Irish is what i mean to say.
Report Send.in.the.clowns September 17, 2014 8:23 PM BST
wildmanfromborneo
wildmanfromborneo 17 Sep 14 19:15 Joined: 30 Nov 10 | Topic/replies: 15,068 | Blogger: wildmanfromborneo's blog
I like Neill D but his post is typical of a man who doesn't like flat racing.

What horses did Neill D expect to come.

The racing was top class on both days,we had good two year olds,stayers and sprinters and some great handicaps.
We had great crowds and a great atmosphere.

I watched the racing from Leopardstown,I think Joseph rode to instructions,great viewing.
I went to the Curragh again great racing,a special weekend.

pmsl
Report The Gotchee September 17, 2014 8:28 PM BST
I wonder how many would have attended if HRI hadn't spent €200,000 publicising the event? Added to that how many free tickets were given out?
Paddy Power were giving 4 tickets to anybody with an online account. I think the event was somewhat contrived because HRI have  responsibility for a €60,000,000 prize money budget, in the main funded by the tax payer, so they had to create a good impression.They did but at what cost?   
I went to Leopardstown and it was a wonderful occasion with a great atmosphere. One thing I did notice was the amount of visitors from the North of Ireland and the UK. A lot of people over for the Greyhound Derby were in attendance but had to leave before the big race to get to Shelbourne Park.
Report Tolmi September 17, 2014 8:29 PM BST
Fascinating that the head of the HRI said in his Irish Field interview that the Irish Derby was"always an interesting race"

I wonder is it that kind of ability to detach himself from reality that justifies his exorbitant salary?
Report wildmanfromborneo September 18, 2014 12:22 AM BST
Maybe his instructions were you are riding a champion don't get into trouble by going up the inner,stick to the outside and when you swing in remember the further out you are the former the ground.
Report wildmanfromborneo September 18, 2014 12:23 AM BST
That should be " firmer the ground "
Report Roger De Bris September 18, 2014 1:35 AM BST
Why in God's name did they switch tracks mid-meeting at Leopardstown from the inside to the outside from the Fiesolana race onwards???
Report one to note September 18, 2014 4:19 PM BST
When Sea the Stars won they used different tracks so as to have fresh ground for the Group I races and they have continued to do this since then.
Report brain dead jockeys September 20, 2014 6:13 PM BST
the issue with the ride is why was he so wide for the whole race?...........on a track like leops it is not uncommon for horses to be held up out the back and to go wide at the FINAL turn..............the problem with joe is he was 5/6 wide at EVERY TURN..............the camera shot from behind the horses after the far side bend was the telling shot...............what in gods name was joe doing out wide that far out..........there was an acre of empty space between him and the grey gatsby...........it was a ride of total incompetance and arrogance............he was ridden like a 1/5 shot in a novice chase.............no respect for the opposition whatsoever. the horse got a very hard race.
AP o'brien needs to stop hyping up his horses.............so you think, camelot and australia have been hyped up like no horses in the history of the game..........."never had a horse like him, "best we have had"............."amazing, unbelieveable"...............the form book says otherwise, im afraid. so you think was a very good horse but he got beat 5 times while trained in ireland. camelot was only a half decent group 1 winner...........he won the worst 2000g on record and a very poor derby............he couldnt beat encke in the leger and his form as a 4 year old confirmed this. they were way off in their assessment of him. australia is a good 10f and 12f horses...........maybe a very good one.............but far from a great one.
if kingman was trained by ap o brien he would be his best ever...............gosden stoute and cecil let their horses do the talking...........b doyle need to do the same.
Report Clerkmore September 21, 2014 1:40 PM BST
Joseph has obviously not watched a 400m race at the Olympics and noted that the outside lane gets a good start on the inside.
Report Send.in.the.clowns September 22, 2014 4:48 PM BST
http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/plans-to-honour-worlds-best-jockey-announced/1723451/top/#newsArchiveTabs=last7DaysNews

gulp
Report Send.in.the.clowns October 4, 2014 4:11 PM BST
aloft got him bang out of trouble there at Newmarket, terrible ride
Report Dan Chipowski October 5, 2014 2:27 PM BST
Gleneagles demoted to third in France, Joseph whacking away with the left hand whilst the horse hangs across. Plain
Report punchestown October 5, 2014 2:31 PM BST
Should have swapped the stick alright,harsh demotion I thought as he was the best horse in the race and a suspension would have been enough.
Report mrcombustible October 5, 2014 3:18 PM BST
Ryan would have won on it
Report irish_guy_13 October 5, 2014 3:20 PM BST
he did win on it, just lost his head again.
Report The Gotchee October 5, 2014 7:02 PM BST
Joseph should be the Liam Ward and/or the Tommy Murphy of the Ballydoyle operation. When Ryan Moore is available USE HIM. I thought Magnier was supposed to be a clever fellow?
Report quay_street October 5, 2014 11:45 PM BST
Maybe it is a package deal; you can't have one without the other.
Report Send.in.the.clowns April 6, 2015 3:40 PM BST
Shocker on Aetna
Report roadrunner46 April 6, 2015 3:44 PM BST
what do expect, the guy is a giraffeHappy
Report itcanbedone April 6, 2015 3:44 PM BST
Made a b0ll0x of it alright.
Report DECALEC April 7, 2015 1:16 PM BST
and the easterberys were glad to get him,they should of watched the ride he gave ALBEN STAR in the curragh last yearCrazy
Report frank60 April 9, 2015 11:09 PM BST
THE link between Aidan O'Brien and Ryan Moore strengthened on Thursday night when it was confirmed the former British champion jockey will be frontline rider for ­Ballydoyle this season 

Speaking at Tipperary, O'Brien said: "Ryan will be riding our main horses this year and Joseph [O'Brien] will be riding other horses when the weights allow him to. Seamie Heffernan and Colm O'Donoghue will also be involved as in the past.

"I'd imagine that if he wants to, Joseph will continue to ride over hurdles."

Weight difficulties which he has been battling for over a year have curtailed 21-year-old Joseph's start to the ­season and the former dual Irish champion missed the opening day of the Irish Flat campaign at the Curragh, ­riding instead over hurdles for the first time at Limerick.

He resumed on the Flat at Cork last weekend where he rode at 9st 5lb, and he was in action over hurdles again on Sunday and Tuesday.

Moore will ride at Leopardstown on Sunday when his mounts will include Investec Derby favourite John F ­Kennedy in the Ballysax Stakes.

He has ridden for O'Brien on many occasions in recent years and has enjoyed several Group 1 successes including Ruler Of The World in the 2013 Derby and the 1,000 Guineas on Homecoming Queen in 2012.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 9, 2015 11:47 PM BST
I think that's terrible sad.

I feel sorry for father and son.
Report frank60 April 10, 2015 12:01 AM BST
Sad but Inevitable Wildman.
Report Racingqueen April 10, 2015 12:12 AM BST
some great posts about last years champions stakes above. HRI are utter filth. A old boys club. I'd personally love to see public funding cut for racing in this country. it simply doesnt deserve what it gets off the exchequer
Report TellTheKing April 10, 2015 1:31 AM BST
Widman why is it sad? It's actually best for all concerned:

Joseph - He has had a brilliant time of it and it was an inevitability that he couldn't carry on for much longer
AOB - He has first call on a far superior rider and the wife can't continue to be badgering on Joseph's behalf while also mending the difficulties which surfaced with The Boss due to Joseph's mistakes
Coolmore / Ryan Moore - Natural extension to what is already a mutually beneficial relationship
Racing Public - Gets to witness the best rider in the world on our courses on a weekly basis

The truth is if Joseph wasn't born into the family he was he would probably be struggling to get spins in 6 and up maidens at p2p's. He is simply too big. If you were being harsh you could say he has stolen a career though that would be unfair given the level of effort he has put into his weight thus far.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 10, 2015 9:36 AM BST
Most of the top jockeys now seem to be born into it including Joseph's replacement.

Ludicrous to say he would be struggling to get rides in point to points.

Joseph OBrien has a phenomenal record for one so young,he's improving all the time as a rider.

Its sad because his father had to break the news to him,sad because even were he to get his weight down his job is gone.
Report TellTheKing April 10, 2015 10:14 AM BST
There's a world of difference between being born into it for Joseph and for Ryan Moore. The truth is if Joseph was born into any other family he wouldn't even hold a Flat licence at this point. Everyone knew this was coming and he has managed to build up a brilliant CV in a short period of time. Ryan Moore hoisted himself up by his own talent. Them two are operating in different stratospheres in terms of talent before weight is even brought into it.

He's a decent horseman but he is quite limited as a rider and has been exposed as same time and time again. The constant wasting can not have been any help either. He still has a desperate whip action and, on admittedly a small sample size, he has an awful sit over jumps. He'd make Robbie Power look good.

If Joseph has any scintilla of a brain (and I imagine he does) he gives thanks every day for the opportunities he has been given, ones he wouldn't have gotten anywhere else.
Report Santry April 10, 2015 5:28 PM BST
Given Josephs height his weight problems were only get more difficult and I think this is the right decision for Coolmore and for Joseph himself long term.
Report neill d April 10, 2015 7:38 PM BST
What will be interesting will be what Ryan says after one of the big guns is turned over. "Not good enough", hopefully he can find a few more syllables than he has been, might take a leaf from McCoy.
Report frank60 April 10, 2015 9:21 PM BST
JFK HAS ONLY 2 TO BEAT IN THE bALLYSAX ON SUNDAY, Ryan should be able to muster a few  syllables after j.f.k wins Neill, rumour has it he has been taking voice Lessons from LesterTongue Out
Report Send.in.the.clowns April 13, 2015 8:25 AM BST
Some ridiculous gushinh praise wildman, he is/was an average jockey at best- who got a huge number of fantastic rides. "phenomenal" record it clearly wasnt
Report Kelly April 13, 2015 11:11 AM BST
Joseph is no Snaafi Dancer . He has had a very succesful career to date on the flat , but with a natural weight of about 11 stone approx ( relative to height etc) it was always going to be difficult to compete at international level with the best in the world for any length of time .  Not sure about him over hurdles to date , its a different ball game to the flat .

Reckon this will be a season of change for Joseph , good luck to him anyway , he is a nice lad and he is still very young .
Report frank60 April 13, 2015 11:34 AM BST
Send in the clowns-, he is/was an average jockey at best- who got a huge number of fantastic rides. "phenomenal" record it clearly wasnt--i would think with the money involved the owners would not have trusted Joseph even if he is Aiden,s son, the reality is  that Joseph is a very fine jockey.
Report punchestown April 13, 2015 11:59 AM BST
I think he's an excellent flat jockey with weight problems nothing more or less.

I do have worries though on the evidence of what we've seen so far on his ability to switch over,early days yet but he has a lot of work to do.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 14, 2015 12:00 PM BST
He has a phenomenal record,I can't think of any other jockey in history with a better one.

Lester Piggott was the best flat jockey I ever saw and there are similarities.

Both tall,both born into racing stables,both had racing on both sides of their family,both had weight problems.
But at the age of 21 their respective careers were different.

Lester Piggott had not yet been champion jockey and had ridden one classic winner,the Epsom Derby on Never Say Die.

Joseph OBrien has won two jockey championships and four English classics,including two winners of the Epsom Derby.
Report TellTheKing April 14, 2015 12:10 PM BST
Fred Archer definitely amassed an equal if not better record early I would say.

Missed Lester's time but given Joseph isn't even the best rider in his family I think mentioning the two in the same sentence amounts to heresy.
Report p_r_e_m_i_e_r__f_a_n_t_a_s_y April 14, 2015 12:15 PM BST
I like Joseph (nice lad and decent flat jock) but comparing him with Lester?? I am too young to have seen Piggott but if what is said about him is true there is no comparison
Report wildmanfromborneo April 14, 2015 12:29 PM BST
Some might claim I saw Fred Archer riding,not true.

I read a book about Fred Archer as a young man and have admired him ever since and would recommend everyone to read it,riveting and sad.
I'd say your right too Tell The King but that kind of makes my point,we have to go back to the greatest jockey of the nineteenth century for a comparison.

Now for my hot headed friend of course there is a comparison and the one here is a factual one not a matter of opinion.
At their respective times in their career Joseph OBrien has a far better record than Lester,it doesn't make him better but is worthy of comment.
Report p_r_e_m_i_e_r__f_a_n_t_a_s_y April 14, 2015 12:36 PM BST
Oh dear, can Wildman not reply to me at all without having a dig ?? I suppose it is better than the usual just making things up about you

And he calls me hot headed, hmmmmmmmmm
Report Kelly April 14, 2015 12:39 PM BST
I grew up with Lester , figuratively speaking . In the old days before exchanges were an option , and punting relied on different factors than nowadays , first thing you looked for in the days racing was Lesters mounts . And if it wasn't Lester , it was Scobie Breasley . Both the punters friend .

Lester was the best ever , Cauthen possibly next best ever with natural talent . Seldom if ever saw them miss a trick ( excpet for Petite Etoile infamously ) .

Joseph would be the first to admit he is no Lester . Lester also rode a bit over hurdles early in his life , before he discovered the cigar diet . Unfashionable nowadays that .  Just hope it works out for Joseph , but he knows horses inside out just like his Da who was not as good a rider as any of his chidren ( despite being champion amateur on occasions Aidan ) .

Influence from the dam side of the family may have kicked in there .
Report wildmanfromborneo April 14, 2015 12:41 PM BST
Nothing was made about you,you revealed it to the forum.

There is a science you should know about,its called profiling.

Its in the news now as racial profiling is no longer allowed.
Although when all the terrorist attacks on planes are done by Muslims,its not racial profiling to keep a lookout for swarthy males attending flight school  its actually a description of the suspect.
Report paulie wallnuts April 14, 2015 12:44 PM BST
Wildman has a  spare half hour and is on the look out for a barney......Joseph O  Brien is a bang ordinary jockey who has never ever won a race he wasnt well entitled to.....and has fired away plenty......there are 20 jockeys at the moment at least his equal and most of them are better.....
Ryan Moore would lose him as would many others.....if and when he does pack up then he'd be no loss.....there has never been a first jockey at the stable who is so limited.....not since the days of Vincent O Brien even......
Report p_r_e_m_i_e_r__f_a_n_t_a_s_y April 14, 2015 12:45 PM BST
Just because you watched a few episodes of Criminal Minds does not make you qualified for a job in the BAU - you no zilch about me or 99% of those on this forum I would imagine
Report paulie wallnuts April 14, 2015 12:48 PM BST
Exactly premier fantasy.....he's constantly profiling people.....telling me i had daughters.....and intimating that he knew exactly who i was which he doesnt......he may well know people that i know but he sure as hell doesnt know me.....
Report TellTheKing April 14, 2015 12:48 PM BST
Wildman I only picked out a name who would have had a comparable record at a similar age. It would be unusual for one so young to be projected into the position Joseph attained so direct comparisons are hard to find. If you are looking at all Flat riders Joseph surely doesn't compare with Kinane, Smullen or Murtagh (and they are just three Irish riders that I have seen). This doesn't even touch on the likes of Richards, Eddery, Cauthen or Shoemaker.

Joseph would be left in the ha'penny place when compared to any of the racing greats.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 14, 2015 12:50 PM BST
I know plenty about you,I know you are short tempered prone to brood and live alone.

I know you think you are an expert on dogs and attend every Saturday night,you have a mundane job and despite your inflated idea of yourself haven't the confidence to try your hand at backing dogs for a living.

Paulie your latest post is probably accurate but it doesn't change the fact that Joseph OBrien has a phenomenal record,the point I was defending.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 14, 2015 12:55 PM BST
I  suppose I have to spell it out.

Joseph OBrien wouldn't be on anyone's list of good jockeys,would rank low in the list of Irish champion jockeys but that doesn't change his record which is phenomenal.

In his defence he could point out that had he not these weight problems he could have improved.
Lester was far from the finished article when he was 21,he just got better and better.
Report p_r_e_m_i_e_r__f_a_n_t_a_s_y April 14, 2015 12:56 PM BST
I know you are short tempered prone to brood and live alone. wrong


I know you think you are an expert on dogs and attend every Saturday night nearly correct, I attend most Saturday nights (with some Wednesday and Thursdays thrown in)


you have a mundane job and despite your inflated idea of yourself haven't the confidence to try your hand at backing dogs for a living.
wrong, job is alright and I did just gamble for a living for a number of years until circumstances changed (somebody you suck up to on here can vouch for that)


poor effort in all honesty, the only thing you where close to getting right was I go to Shelbourne a lot of the time, hardly took a genius to guess that
Report TellTheKing April 14, 2015 12:59 PM BST
Wildman I don't think I have ever seen anyone argue with Joseph's record. It speaks for itself. Who are you defending it against?

Any discussion on him is around his exalted position in relation to his talent / weight issues.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 14, 2015 1:11 PM BST
I said his record was phenomenal on this thread,Send In The Clowns said it wasn't.

By the way I wouldnt put Gordon Richards or Willie Shoemaker in any list of all time great jockeys.
Report Kelly April 14, 2015 1:51 PM BST
Richards and the Shoe have to be in list of all time greats , Top 10 a reasonable catchment sample . Not sure where they fit on the ladder , possibly mid table .  Gordon won so many jockeys titles and the Shoe rode so many winners .  People might denigrate Sir Gordon because he only rode one Derby winner ( Pinza) and that at the end of his career . He was expert at nicking lengths at the start , knew all the moves and the courses inside out --no starting stalls then . Shoemaker showed his ability / class when he rode ( occasionally) over here , but he wasn't a world jockey like Lester was . Too many rich pickings at home , no need to travel .  American syndrome .
Report frank60 April 14, 2015 2:35 PM BST
Lester was the best. After that a photo between a hole- host of them.Maybe Sir Gordon Richards 2nd best   the first to ride 4,000 winners and the leading rider in British flat (Thoroughbred) racing for 26 of his 34 seasons (1921–54). His career total of 4,870 victories was a world record, broken by Johnny Longden of the United States on Sept. 3, 1956. He was the first jockey ever to be knighted.

Richards first led British jockeys in victories in 1925. In 1943, when he established a British single-season record of 269 winners, he exceeded Fred Archer’s career total of 2,749, a record for British riders. On May 4, 1950, Richards rode his 4,000th winner. In 1953, a few weeks after he had been knighted, he scored his only triumph in the Derby. He was more successful in other leading stakes races, winning the St. Leger five times and the 2,000 Guineas on three occasions. After being injured twice in races (May and July 1954), he retired as a jockey and became a trainer of racehorses (1955–70) and a racing manager thereafter. His autobiography, My Story, was published in 1955.
Report Racingqueen April 14, 2015 7:43 PM BST
Wildman has a  spare half hour and is on the look out for a barney......Joseph O  Brien is a bang ordinary jockey who has never ever won a race he wasnt well entitled to.....and has fired away plenty......there are 20 jockeys at the moment at least his equal and most of them are better.....
Ryan Moore would lose him as would many others.....if and when he does pack up then he'd be no loss.....there has never been a first jockey at the stable who is so limited.....not since the days of Vincent O Brien even......


spot on.
Report wildmanfromborneo April 14, 2015 8:44 PM BST
Gordon Richards and Bill Shoemaker had similar riding styles both rode with a loose rein.

Richards big race record was abysmal and his huge numbers were to do with longevity,not in the top ten in my opinion.

Bill Shoemaker rode Hawaiian Sound in the 1978 Epsom Derby,he allowed him bowl along in front but let him roll off the rail allowing Greville Starkey fly up the rail on Shirley Heights.

He rode the same horse in the Irish Derby again letting him bowl along on a loose rein but looked very weak in the finish,another not in my top ten.
Report Rocketfingers April 14, 2015 10:32 PM BST
I remember one March a couple of years ago putting O'Brien to be champion jockey circa 4/1 iirc, Wildman quickly scoffed at the idea, he was later to regret such a narrow minded post hence is obsession with the masked man since.
Report kavvie April 15, 2015 9:20 AM BST
im watching racing 40 years(sadly!)  best two i seen were lester piggott and mj kinane.   the joseph thing is over now.i think he was a 7/10 rider.seems a very nice lad and who wouldnt have too the opportunitys if they were offered.i dont think hes gonna make a success of national hunt to be honest...
Report Kelly April 15, 2015 2:01 PM BST
On the basis that there is only one 10 rider out there at present , your mark for Joseph is probably not far off the mark , kavvie .

We have seen a succession of good young ( apprentice) riders appear nearly every year recently , but when their claim and newness wears out they tend to slip back into the 6/7 mould .

I wonder are the jockeys akin to the soccer "starlets" who clutter up our screens every day but eventually prove to be just ordinary . England are the best at soccer locally at present , none of them would have got on the 1966 team  , which was nearly 50 years ago .

Likewise in the jockey scene , Lester was the best for nigh on 40 years until his ( first ) retirement --and he suffered a 6 month ban , allegedly largely due to the influence of one other jockey mentioned earlier in despatches . Scobie pushed Lester hard early in Lesters career , and  Pat Eddery did keep Lester up to his work , and Cauthen was brilliant . They were all riding for the best stables though , and the scene has changed with free lancing more prevalent .

Joseph's future long term probably will not be flat , weight considerations etc , interesting to see how they will figure it out , which they will , they are clever people . And good luck to him whatever way the ball hops .
Report RoyalAcademy April 15, 2015 3:03 PM BST
Dermot Weld employed one of the world's greatest jockeys in MJK and Pat Smullen served his apprenticeship and time until he was ready to take over the Rosewell mantle. I daresay he has improved significantly over the years - as one might expect - from having a consummate professional boss and riding very good horses in the best races. It might be surprising that he is not in more demand internationally but he never hit it lucky in a global race (a la MJK & Carroll House) and also was never very well known in England or France. Still time to dominate internationally but time running out.

What happened in Ballydole?

Aiden ousted the best jockey in the world (our world!) at the time and gave the gig to his teenage son who had just started shaving.
Report workrider April 15, 2015 5:48 PM BST
Royal it was a case of Johnny walking , not ousted ...
Report olddesperado April 15, 2015 8:52 PM BST
Caught the tail end of an atr interview today and i was surprised how much detail he had on everything he was asked about concerning all the horses at ballydoyle.
Chip of the old block perhaps,

Seemed a likeable fellow and perhaps a training career might suit him better than getting broken up over jumps .
Report frank60 April 15, 2015 9:23 PM BST
I got that feeling myself Odd, a nice interview he even sounds like his Dad.
Report RoyalAcademy April 16, 2015 10:05 AM BST
Johnnie Walker workrider?

hardly!
Report workrider April 16, 2015 6:52 PM BST
Trust me on that Royal ...
Report pa lapsy May 2, 2015 8:07 AM BST
Bit surprised to see him in the guineas at 9-0,he must have been on fresh air the last few weeks.
Report kincsem May 2, 2015 8:40 AM BST
wildmanfromborneo
He has a phenomenal record,I can't think of any other jockey in history with a better one.
Lester Piggott was the best flat jockey I ever saw and there are similarities.
Both tall,both born into racing stables,both had racing on both sides of their family,both had weight problems.
But at the age of 21 their respective careers were different.
Lester Piggott had not yet been champion jockey and had ridden one classic winner,the Epsom Derby on Never Say Die.


If you drawn the line today Joseph O'Brien is 21 years, 10 months with four English classics.
At 21 years 10 months for Lester Piggott that would be September 1957 and Piggot then also had four English classics: Never Say Die (1957 D); Crepello (1957 2000); Crepello (1957 D); Carrozza (1957 O).
You could say Joseph O'Brien had his four English classics by June 2014 at age 21 years and 1 month.

And of course at that age neither Joseph O'Brien or Lester Piggott had been English champion jockey.
Report kincsem May 3, 2015 4:08 PM BST
Last in the 2000 Guineas and last in the 1000 Guineas.  Not a good weekend for Joseph.
Report cacique May 7, 2015 10:06 PM BST
any news how kate harrington broke her collar bone last weekend/
Report cacique May 7, 2015 10:12 PM BST
the boy Joseph is tap tap tapping her isn't he??
Report Vubiant May 8, 2015 12:22 AM BST
I might be wrong here but I think it's the horses Joseph was riding that finished last in the two Classics.
Of course if he was a better jockey they might have finished second last -but ,again, I could be wrong there too.
Report neill d May 8, 2015 9:28 AM BST
Thought she was going out with Patrick Mullins, no?
Report TellTheKing May 8, 2015 10:02 AM BST
Wrong Katie Neill
Report neill d May 8, 2015 10:17 AM BST
Oh right! Is the other famous one, so? I'm trying to think which other ones there are!
Report Clerkmore May 12, 2015 3:30 PM BST
I think at Joseph must feel that Ol' Man River is better than he showed at Newmarket. That is twice this season that he is doing 9 stone to ride him.
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