No Solos For Willie Mullins In England.

Would never stay 2m6F.  I place layed it and backed the second fav without fav and still lost on the race!

In no way are they trying to fool the handicapper.

If he went in front today he would have been beaten 20L plus

You miss the point Littleman , running him over a distance to far , therefore getting him dropped a few pounds , drop him back in distance , pop him off in front , hey presto...

Still the drought continues,the english trainers don't run away they take him on,they are not afraid of the handicapper.

Now you know why he wants more races in Ireland for him to gallop his horses whilst picking up decent prize money.

They should have less of these races might stop all these heavy odds on shots.

Ah he could have taken that race had he pleased really, Annie Power, Fly, Faugheen, Un De Sceaux or Vautour all would have hacked up in that, the latter two could have done before going chasing. His training style doesn't lend itself to handicaps, beyond unexposed horses, one has to lose to win and that is of no interest to Mullins, he simply moves them on. Of high priority to Mullins is extending his  Irish dominance to the championship races at Cheltenham, he is a great trainer of novices, maybe the best ever, he needs a Champion Chase and a Gold Cup, and every good horse he has is treated with that aim in mind, the same with AOB with the Guineas and derby, the man doesn't mess around. It could be said that a few of the fellas who are supposed to be rivalling him here, who actually can really train, are too small minded to see the bigger picture. I'd have much more admiration for Willie's MO than for one of the most preeminent Irish trainers sending horses over to Perth, Ger Lyons won't keep a horse rated under sixty, our flat trainers take great races all over the world,  some of their National Hunt peers could maybe learn from that. The ferry over to Perth, for a would-be top trainer is like going up to the swankiest bar in town and counting out the coppers to make up the price of a pint.Ya shouldn't be seen doing it!!

Elliot has a lot of owners with poor animals though Neill. He does what he has to, to make it pay for them. Give them a day out and a winner. He is a top trainer, but doesn't have the wealth of talent that WPM has, or anywhere next nor near it.

My uncle had a horse years ago with Tony Martin years ago, Rahinine Melody. She won quite a few chases at Perth, she couldn't win over here. Owner happy,...buys more horses. Elliot learnt from Martin, and has done well to.

I would say Elliot also enjoys 'working the programme'. It shows a skill and attention to detail that many others could learn from. I certainly wouldn't say he is small minded.

It's a funny one though Callit, there is great skill in what both Elliot and Martin do, if you said to me they were 2 and 3 in the country in terms of  raw NH training talent, I wouldn't disagree, but I wonder does the schemer element put off a few of the really big owners, guys that might be like Ricci but don't even have a horse yet. Ireland is ripe for another big owner. I mean the likes of Ricci or Potts who couldn't afford to be associated with even a hint of controversy given their professional lives. It is a bit like Harry Redknapp, great at what he does, but he'll never manage England or Manchester United. martin in particular limits himself because of how he is perceived.

The above post is a bit of a maybe, but you'd just wonder why nobody has come through to rival Mullins.

Yeah, its definitely a possibility alright. Ricci came out of nowhere, so maybe there is another potential big owner lurking out there. If he went with the Irish scene, and Elliot didnt get any of the distribution, it would be worrying for him.

As good as Mullins is, and the added bonus of having Ruby, I doubt anyone who had plans to be as prominent anbd successful in the game as RR would send their string to Mullins. Un de Sceaux got the poor mans treatment all of last year, and that would certainly be a worry for anyone sending a good one there.

If I was buying something half decent, I would have Elliot as my first port of call. He isn't as tarnished as say Martin(perception wise), and has proved a very good target trainer. Also very fair to his owners. 

It would be superb for Irish racing if someone did come along to rival Riccis purchasing power, as all the eggs are in the one basket at the moment.

Elliot may have a star on his hands in the shape of yesterdays bumper winner. He has been very impressive in contrasting races on this last two runs. Made for chasing, I would hope he will be hurdling by Christmas. He is one to keep on side.

Willie Mullins is well aware of the mild criticism about his training of chasers and responds to it in yesterday's Racing Post.
I think this criticism is unfair and think he is a great trainer of chasers.

There are some fair points on this thread about the horses he trains and he is not generally looking to train handicappers but he has still landed some monster punts in handicaps.
He doesn't get them handicapped himself some other trainer does that job,Willie then gets the horse and improves it two stone,Thousand Flowers being the best example.

All the big owners seem to want WPM. Gigginstown held out far many years but eventually got involved. Surely with the amount of money owners and quality horses available it is understandable handicappers are not his thing. His space and time is limited. The NH game is very lopsided at present and there surely is space for another rival set- similiar to the role Dermot Weld fills on the flat.

Remember a few years ago Willie took a few castoffs and they were landing massive gambles.

I remember one at Naas in a hurdle, cant remember the horse...punted off the boards and hacked up. Agree with Wildman

I presume you mean thousand stars wildman,You're 100% correct with that horse,

How many horses has jp had with mullins?Only one i remember is Arbour supreme,Hasn't has many others has he?

Ye can certainly understand why.

As far as I know, WPM and JP don't really get on.

Its not that they don't get on its just Willie Mullins likes to make all the decisions,he runs horses as if they were all his own.

Another aspect is Willie Mullins does not like gamblers,this goes back to the days of the Silver Bachelor
He remembers the roaring when a gamble didnt come off,he remembers the constant demand for winners,demand for " information "

Willie Mullins also rode for Barney Curley when that man landed some spectacular punts in bumpers,his easy going style and ability to take defeat made it seem there was no gambling going on.

McManus only got into the stable by buying Arbour Supreme.

Willie Mullins has an aversion to gambling and never gambles,which is why I have always maintained that if he ever figured out how much was being made by some stable insiders he would look for a cut.

Barney Curley does not have an easy going style as anyone who has seen him lose the plot with Luke Harvey and John Mc Cririck will testify.

Also if Monica Dickinson could return from the dead and post on here I would be fairly sure she would put you straight fairly quickly on your belief that he can take defeat well.

Its only when he feels wronged that he loses is cool.

Although seeing most of those bumper horses won and were well ridden might have had something to do with his calm demeanour.

He had a monster bet on Wayward Lad in Dawn Runs Gold Cup,took like a Christian,congratulated all around it was only later others discovered how much he lost.

I was referring to the Robin Goodfellow episode.I always found it fascinating the difference between his reaction to GB's ride on that and the way he campaigned his own horses.

Graham Bradley rode Robin Goodfellow,Curley backed it and claimed it was stopped,took his complaint to the authorities and they done him for bringing the game into disrepute.

Bradley's later conviction makes Curleys claim interesting.

I fully accept your observation about the double standards.

It was the during the night phone calls to the trainer I meant.

It was the during the night phone calls to the trainer I meant.

He behaved dreadfully that time but that was because he thought he was wronged.

It was hypocritical.

Just throwing this out, Willie Mullins last horse to win a handicap in England away from Cheltenham festival was Hedgehunter in 2005 Grand national, He's ran 60 since then and 7 have managed a place.

Well throw it right back in, and don't be spouting nonsense

Go find one then, Prove me wrong, I have all night.

Willie Mullins UK Handicappers (away from Cheltenham) since the beginning of 2006

0/60 | 0% S/R -£60.00 BFLSP – Win & Place 7/60 | 12% S/R

Fact is he could win as many chases in the uk as he desired if he wanted to improve that strike rate

Did you find any yet to show I was talking "Nonsense" ?

Its a nonsense argument, and if you can't see that, then oh well...

The thread was to do with WPM poor results in England,
I put out a fact about his handicap results in England,
You said it was nonsense,
I asked you to prove it wasn't,
You have now said it's a nonsense argument,
It was a fact not a argument from myself,
Dismissing someone because you can't dismantle their point is also very weak,
Enjoy your evening Mr Pop.

It was nonsense what you were implying by stating that fact, absolute tripe in fact.

Numbers deal in absolutes, As the thread was about WPM poor strike rate in the Uk I thought I'd present some numbers.

"Fact is he could win as many chases in the uk as he desired if he wanted to improve that strike rate"
^^^ Example of what tripe actually is, A guess preceded by the word fact to give it some validity in the posters mind.

Once again enjoy your evening Mr Pop.

Ya just fail to see the bigger picture, when ya come out of the fog, come back to me!

Feel free to explain this big picture, I'll stick the kettle on.

Lets simplify this for you in baby steps, what are the 2 biggest festival meetings in Uk each year?

Aintree and Cheltenham I would say, would you agree?

Naturally I'd agree, Continue.

Aha, fantastic! Progress!

So naturally its his strike rate at these meetings you should be referring to when talking about his uk strike rate seeing as that is where he aims all his best horse at every year...

Comprendez?

The thread was to do with his poor strike rate in the UK, I was highlighting how bad it is away from Cheltenham.
I understand where you are coming from though, Should I incorporate his Cheltenham performances into the statistics for future reference then ?

I think it would give a truer reflection alright, wouldn't you?

Well for what it's worth he's had 5 Cheltenham festival winners in handicaps in the last 9 years.
Shall we add those ?

Why not...!

I may be some time.

I'll stick the kettle on!

A vast improvement on where we started.

Been busy today so only got round to crunching the numbers in the last hour, Have done all WPM UK runners at all venues in all classes of race since 1/5/06.

wins 38, Runners 326, WSR 11%, LSP -46.69pts.

If we want to look for a profitable angle I'll keep working away, Suspect I'll end up at Novice Hurdlers at Graded class though.

Sorry 1/5/05, Now running Graded class only results.

keep it going mate,..ive had this argument with snap and big willy,..the facts speak for themselves...326 runners..38 wins..but gutfeeling,..could you sort out his runners wins outside of Cheltenham racecourse?...his runner in the tingle creek Saturday has to be a lay on the figures surely?..but law of averages?

I could mate, Going offline in a bit though, Had a hell of a day but will bang up all % breakdowns tomorrow evening, I may even do his Irish numbers to show how vast the gulf is between home and away.

I think he would be about minus  £107 over the season here ...dreadful returns to a £1 stake ...

thanks gut,..see you tomorrow

Be surprised if it's that high WR

What are we trying to get at here lads?It's obvious his strike rate in handicaps in the UK is poor,
Does that make him a bad trainer?or a bad planner?if not then whats the point of these stats?

i was wondering the same, CR!

We are proving the veracity of the opening post.
Its not just handicaps he has a bad record in,his runners are not given the solos they get at home.

Agree with Chelts and Ozy. His poor win rate in handicaps in UK has more to do with the fact he runs his horses more honestly than most other trainers (which is not difficult) and also the English handicapper assumes that WM is like most other Irish trainers. Anyway Gut there's not really much point in telling us how much we would lose following any particular trainer or jockey. Now if you could tell us which ones we could make a profit on that would be much better preferably someone who has plenty of runners/mounts where we can trust the stats. Paul Nicholls has not had a chase winner at the festival since Kauto Star in 2009 and Jim Culloty has had 3 winners in the last 2 years. Be aware of the truth behind statistics

So the OP was to do with his poor SR in UK, Some stats to back that up are produced after some debate and now people wonder whats the point of them, If people can't add anything maybe they'd be better sticking to comedy threads or the usual bad mouthing of each other.

Arkle you'll see I mentioned how I'm trying to boil it down to a profitable area but TBH it's not worth my time to show the good/Bad if people are going to come on to bemoan the effort it's taken without adding anything of note themselves.

Can only try and make these threads into something interesting, Maybe I'd be better to just tell people to go have a lie down or slate a jockey/trainer to garner some gold stars.

gut ur work is appreciated by most on here..thanks..

wellsaid kavie..

Appreciate it kav/Tony, Have given the bare bones, Now it's up to others to flesh it out and find the edge, You know where to find me Tony, Good luck for today btw.

this is the thing gut.pros and people that know what they are at, have no interest in yre shoite.but feel free to "crunch the numbers".u swear u are in the big time with gordon gekko.i suppose ther is no harm in you trying to massage yre ego and maybe impress yre fellow mug punters.

lol..says the pro on the forum?

yet again..mr mullins draws a blank outside Cheltenham racecourse??

Bit of a cough in the yard apparently

Posted on here 4 weeks ago that there was a cough in the yard and horses were not right.  Again he brings over horses who wouldnt be in the top 5 or 6 in their division in the yard!  He is only testing the water.

I assume you layed Killultagh Vic and Rio Treasure tony?

I laid rio chelts, tbh I like vic and thought he had a chance especially if ruby did what he did in making it from the front, but I didn't back it cos of the record, I backed the nicholls faller..but I take the reason that there may be a cough in the yard..but whats the excuse for nearly a 100 others not run @Cheltenham racecourse?..just testing the water..a horse that finished 6th in the champion bumper..you're serious willy aren't you?

If he has a cough in the stable its a very selective and predictable one.

Argentino ran dismally in the first race in Navan but funnily everybody knew he was going to run that way.

Blood Cotil ran his race although the combined forces punted the bejaysus out of the winner Wounded Warrior.

Turcagua won the bumper like an odds on should.

In Cork Black Hercules,Felix Younger and Vroum Vroum Mag all won,Westerner Lady was relatively unfancied but still finished third.

At Punchestown Totally Dominant was beaten but 'twas the ground done him and he was a massive drifter,Un Atout got beaten but 'twas the bad mistake done him but Livelovelaugh won the bumper.

Tramore one runner Valyssa Monterg won the first at odds on.

Navan Shaneshill ran his race in the grade 2 hurdle just beaten by an exceptional horse No More Heroes.
Jarry DHonneur another huge drifter but ran some race considering he had blood problems,definitely no cough but one to punt next time.
Abbey Lane was punted in the handicap chase but this lad was ridden like he bursts and I presume that's what happened.
Normal service resumed in the bumper when Bordini won wht should turn out a decent contest.

If there is a cough its a selective one and one that never surprises them.

Tony i know the pecking order there and trust me this horse is nowhere near the top.  The bumper for the most part is a crap race where very few top class horses emerge!

Wildman believe what you want.

I take your point about the pecking order bigwilly,but surely hes no back number?..especially over further?

You got to hand it to Willie Mullins when he gets a cough in the stable it only affects the ones crossing the Irish Sea.

Only one of his horses has coughed,that was Argentino and everybody knew beforehand that he was going to cough

Fairyhouse today proved yet again no cough there.
Five runners yielded four winners.

Uradel let him down for the nap hand but his defeat was hardly a surprise to those who watched him getting beaten in Navan.

iT MUST BE THE ENGLISH AIR WILDMAN

The fact that they don't run scared is another reason Frank , most of the Irish lads are terrified of their h/cap marks if they let one loose and it gets near one of his...

wellsaid Wildman,..i  made the point that it has to be more to it than just they run well at Cheltenham..but don't at other courses...

Tony you are not talking about the same horses. He runs the good ones at Cheltenham. It should be easy enough to understand.

^^What Arkle said,It's not rocket science surely.

no its not chelts,..I get your point..he runs the better horses at Cheltenham,..but he has such a poor record elsewere cos the ones that don't run at prestbury..are back numbers...?

Yes tony,That's pretty much it in a nutshell,By Mullins standards these horses are back numbers,in most other yards they wouldn't be.

fair enough...I know you don't mean EVERY ONE OF THEM?.would you back champagne fever @Kempton?

Well his record away from Cheltenham would not put me off whatsoever thats for sure,i think he has a good a chance as any horse in the race,Do you fancy him yourself tony?or is it Mullins record away from Cheltenham thats putting u off??

couldn't touch him chelts..and like you I rate the animal..but also im not sure 3 m is his trip?..although if your going to get it you,ll get it there..but the main reason is his record with his runners outside prestbury..

Fair enough tony,i think this beast is made for 3 miles plus,He'll get it standing on his head imo,
sure to be a cracking race,looking forward to it.

you may be right, as isaid if he gets it it,ll be there..im looking forward to boxing day..i could be going to sedgfield or wetherby(don't know yet) but even if I don't..great days racing ..lep and limerick also..down royal..although its never on live t.v..

Too much racing to keep up with on Stephens' day (as its known in ireland )
i'll just be following the top class stuff,All the rest i'll have no interest in (betting wise and just watching)

Tony check your whatsap ..

12 meetings on the 26th, most be something there for all racing fans

Thurles Sunday three runners,two winners.

Bosman Rule got beaten but it wasn't a cough that beat that beast.

This selective cough he has must only be in the departure lounge at Closutton as it only affects the ones racing overseas.

Sadly I have to agree with Walnutt re this fellow , likes like he is useless , surprised Willie has not got rid of him ...A horse with no trip its becoming obvious ...

Sure we know he is useless.  Any horse from Mullins stable that takes as long as he did to win a bumper is no good!

.

mr mullins has another poor day outside prestbury..byside another long odds on shot..(proberly the best horse we have seen in a while)

I've laid it for the C/hurdle Tony ,a must lay at 6/4 ,todays race was piss poor and told us nothing we dont already know...

I disagree mate, the race was not great ..your right, but he has a engine..wether that's good enough to beat the new one..jezki..we,ll see..but cf didn't stay..back to 2m or 2/1/2..still best horse in the race for me

Think this horse is the real deal lads,you can't knock it's Juvenile form and to have the stamina to win over 3mls in bottomless ground to skipping around Kempton today over 2 miles and Ascot and the ultimate test at 2mile 5 F at Cheltenham marks it down as a serious player.

I think Ruby will sap the finishing kick out of the Twiston horse in March.

I shall be laying this lad for bits and pieces till Cheltenham...Not saying hes not the real deal , just that he has never really been tested by any of the big guns ...He looks the part alright , but its a long way till march ...At that price he just has to be a lay...

Idont know if we will see Faugheen before Cheltenham but he well maybe a lay at these odds.  If the Hurrican wins at leoperstown will he run in the champion/?

I'd be surprised if they run HF at Cheltenham unless we get unusually easy ground (which we haven't got in ages) as it patently needs it easy these days when against Grade 1 opposition to slow the others down,I think Faugheen would be good enough to get Ruby to desert HF if they run it at Cheltenham imo,but if it was bottomless at Cheltenham

Will Willie win the trainers championship over there?

Its much harder when trainers take him on.

I don't think he will win the trainers championship over there.

A few bubbles bust today, up for review, morning run, bellshill, shaneshill,vroum vroum mag and djakadam having a spill. Limini looks a festival winner all the same