How about McCoy on Binocular in 2009, surely the best horse lost that day kavvie?

but a great ride from bg on punjabi..took to the sting out of binocular to an extent..it worked

i backed binocular in 2010 so im glad from a betting point of view..he would have been 6/4 in 2010 if he had won 2009..inches etc!!

I can't agree that he gave him a bad ride in 2009.He was in a perfect position turning in but the horse hung fire until running on again in the last 100 yards.Remember this was a horse that had the flat speed and there was no way Mc Coy could have expected him to take as long as he did to pick up.

I also seem to remember he was criticised for hitting the front too soon in the 2008 Supreme.

I'd say you could be right about 2008 being in his mind kavvie.I think he was perfectly happy turning in travelling well in behind 2 hard ridden rivals.I'd imagine don't get there too soon was what was going through his head.

Just seen on the main forum, Binocular retired.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion tolmi, I just disagree, in hindsight McCoy should've kicked on earlier like he did the following year.

Binocular (FR) 8/1C    4    10-13     Nicky Henderson    143    *    *    »
A P McCoy
   
In touch, tracked leaders 4th, challenged 2 out, slight lead soon after and still just ahead last, headed final 110yds but kept on well for 2nd (tchd 9-1 in places and 10-1 in a place),

Kept on well for 2nd, and 4+L's back to the third horse, suggests to me the horse got home alright just that Captain Cee Bee was just superior on the day.

I'm in agreement with you callitasucit.

With regard to the kept on well comment while he did keep on my recollection of the race is that from appearing all over a winner coming down the hill he did not find as much as expected when he hit the front.He was a ten furlong horse whose ability to get up the hill at the end of a true run race was unproven.Hindsight is something we would all love to have but apparently its hard to buy.

Silver if AOB had put you up on Istabraq you'd have won at least a couple yourself!

"probably the worst comment I have ever read on here.."

A very in debt reply, your argument to the contrary has me bowing down to your obvious superior intellect.

take my advice murphyjust......don't go there......yer beating yer head against the berlin wall......I had to block silver.....couldn't read any more of it....

I genuinely don't think you've actually blocked me paulie, but I do feel if a person goes to the bother of blocking another poster its smacks of arrogance, where only your opinion and nobody else's need be heard.

Why do you think you're always right paulie?.

I know you won't reply because you're pretending you have me blocked.

How the hell am I making a show of myself kavvie?, I'm giving what I think are genuine reasons why jockeys and trainers are often given inflated status when they're nearly completely dependent on the ability of a dumb animal.

I asked a question that deserves an answer, is Patrick Mullins the 4th best jump jockey in Ireland, he did finish 4th in the table did he not?.

Is Joseph O'Brien a better jockey than Mick Kinane because he broke his Irish record this year?, or had the ability of the horse have a huge bearings on those two eventualities I've mentioned above???.

I'm no more making a show myself than the man on the moon, what I'm saying makes perfect sense if you allow yourselves to remove the rose tinted glasses from time to time.

pw mullins isnt the 4th best jockey  in ireland buts a good competent jockey...jp o brien isnt as good as mick kinane was but none were to my mind..jp is still top 5 in ireland..whats your point..

its nonsensical.and if you cant see that theres something amiss with you.what your saying is the weakest link in a team is not the best there is in that position.say the barcelona team..bad example maybe they are so good..but they got a guy who plays in ronaldos position..hes on and off the team..alexis?..just cause he winning all them medals and awards etc.but is he the best out there?no..hes part of a team.same with pwm and job..cn you get y point..

Consider this Silvergreaser. Joseph O'Brien last Wednesday at Dundalk won four races for four different trainers, non of whom were his father.

Antiquus on whom he has 3 rides and 3 wins had previously been beaten on 8 occasions when ridden by other jockeys.

Deep Speed on whom he has two rides 1 win 1 2nd had been beaten 4 times under other riders.

Mountain Coral 1 win from 1 ride, had been beaten 9 times when not ridden by him.

Habesh who he has ridden twice 1 win 1 unplaced had 8 defeats when ridden by other jockeys.

Picking and choosing isolated examples, probably proves nothing, but you started it.

My comment was aimed at your broader point that a jockey's ability has little influence on the outcome of races.

So Patrick Mullins is the greatest ever amateur jockey that ever landed on these shores?

Well he broke a record that was standing since 1915.

Thank you Daddy, you're a star....

Couldn't be bothered reading it all, but Silver in a way you seem to giving evidence against yourself. If someone else rode everything that PMW did, I would be pretty sure(as are you I think), that they would have rode more winners, hence confirming that jockeyship is a vital component in the result of every race.
PMW is barely competent, and in all honesty the market rarely takes this fully into account. One prime example being in the Big money bumper on Irish National day, PMW rode a short priced fav, whilst Jane Mangan rode one at 9-2. Both had come from the point field, obviously, both had been the subject of glowing reports. The market was formed like so, simply because Willie trained one, and Elliot the other. What it didn't take into account was Jane is a 7lb better jockey than PMW, and yet she could claim 7lb into the bargain. I have no doubt that if PMW rode the winner instead of JM, we would have had a different result.
Not taking such info into account Silver is incompetence.
Pace is the single most important factor in any race. Who judges the pace? Yes, the jockey.
The amount of results each day that would be different if you ran them five different times, with 5 different jockeys on each horse, would be huge.
I agree in what is not an individual sport, as both horse and jockey give combined effort, it is hard to single out any one individual for more praise. But over time, the good and great become apparent, this is because they are consistently doing the right thing at the right time, and winning when others would be losing. This is why Ruby rode for Nicholls, and now for Willie. Its why JP pays a shedload to have AP. The list goes on. Yes, they ride the best horses, but because they have earned this right.
Obviously in some cases there are other reasons, nepotism being a common one. JPOB is not a bad pilot, but is not deserving of his position. PWM is next to useless, but all we can do is factor this into are analysis of a race and its market, before we make our decisions.
To not factor it in is idiocy imo.
If you thought a two runner race was evens each of two before looking at jockeys(which if what you say is true, you might not bother anyway), Mangan rode one claiming 5, and PMW rode the other, would it not drastically change your tissue on the race?? This is an extreme example, but highlights the importance of a jockey when making your tissue/decision.
Danny Mullins at Cheltenham in a Champion Hurdle could prove a similar handicap. Are you telling me that you would price him the same regardless of whether DM, Cooper, or Ruby rode it??