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10 Jun 13
13:48
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Date Joined:
30 Nov 10
The way these brave men are treated is a scandal,they are now finding new ways to persecute them.
If you try too hard you are banned for over use of the whip,don't try hard enough you get a longer ban,banned for an injudicious ride(even though that's subjective ),banned for being dehydrated,banned for being put in the wrong stall,banned for going the wrong course when in many cases it was patently obvious it was the racecourses fault,banned if your horse shies away from the whip,banned for human error,banned if you have a non conformist lifestyle.
The new development is get the unfortunate jockey in for a stewards enquiry,ask him leading questions get some half admission off him and then claim case proven beyond all doubt.
In the infamous inquiry at Sligo where they disqualified Seskinane,the stewards claimed because Fox admitted the offence the disqualification was automatic,this was seized on by all journalists in that's the end of that way and ending all discussion but that's patently wrong.It was obvious to me they spoon fed the young lad into some half baked admission but even if he pure announced his guilt prior to going into the inquiry it wouldn't make the case as it is subjective and therefore not necessarily true.
Rail Da Silva got a 14 day ban for not making sufficient effort,this was based on his admission,he was cleared of not letting the horse run on its merits,surely contradictory.
Jockeys need someone to stand up for them and please don't say Andrew Coonan as he has yet to win a case of any description.
If you try too hard you are banned for over use of the whip,don't try hard enough you get a longer ban,banned for an injudicious ride(even though that's subjective ),banned for being dehydrated,banned for being put in the wrong stall,banned for going the wrong course when in many cases it was patently obvious it was the racecourses fault,banned if your horse shies away from the whip,banned for human error,banned if you have a non conformist lifestyle.
The new development is get the unfortunate jockey in for a stewards enquiry,ask him leading questions get some half admission off him and then claim case proven beyond all doubt.
In the infamous inquiry at Sligo where they disqualified Seskinane,the stewards claimed because Fox admitted the offence the disqualification was automatic,this was seized on by all journalists in that's the end of that way and ending all discussion but that's patently wrong.It was obvious to me they spoon fed the young lad into some half baked admission but even if he pure announced his guilt prior to going into the inquiry it wouldn't make the case as it is subjective and therefore not necessarily true.
Rail Da Silva got a 14 day ban for not making sufficient effort,this was based on his admission,he was cleared of not letting the horse run on its merits,surely contradictory.
Jockeys need someone to stand up for them and please don't say Andrew Coonan as he has yet to win a case of any description.
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How are jockeys in other jurisdictions treated? ie the us,aus and the far east?
Fair question,I'm not sure I know they dish out savage sentences in Australia but would welcome any information on it.
Thats a complete nonsense,what do you want to happen,that there be no rules. Particularly flat jockeys,in both England and Ireland you could count on one hand the number of riders who come across as even remotely likeable. Most of them are little urchins with huge ego's,i cannot abide most of them to be honest. The rules are there for everyone who takes part in the game,yes they should be banned for not knowing the layout of a particular track,it is after all their responsibility to have done enough research to be aware of the route. And yes they should be banned for taking cocaine,yes they should be banned for incompetence,and yes they should be banned for human error if it has altered the result of a race. They should receive bans for any misdemeanours they are found guilty of,and on top of that if they ride a visibly poor race,the paying public should be allowed to tell them so on returning to unsaddle.
The arrogance of some of them is astonishing,i have been at meetings where quite clearly a jockey should have won and here he is laughing and joking on the way back to the weighroom with either a retard of a trainer or a compatriot midget. As regards that idiot fox in sligo,if he didnt know the rules concerning dangerous riding,he shouldnt even have been granted a license. Thats like a learner driver saying he was unaware passing on double white lines was a driving offence.
The arrogance of some of them is astonishing,i have been at meetings where quite clearly a jockey should have won and here he is laughing and joking on the way back to the weighroom with either a retard of a trainer or a compatriot midget. As regards that idiot fox in sligo,if he didnt know the rules concerning dangerous riding,he shouldnt even have been granted a license. Thats like a learner driver saying he was unaware passing on double white lines was a driving offence.
Lots of generalisations there,you may not like them but you can't deny they are brave,calling them urchins and midgets is unworthy of you.
As for the paying public being allowed to tell them of their poor rides they have that right and the ones berating jockeys are generally ones that haven't paid in and haven't had a bet.
I understand the frustration of backing a loser and sometimes your reaction is to blame the jockey but it is rarely as simple as that.
There are degrees of competence in all sports and every jockey can't be Ruby Walsh but read the horse racing forum and read the loons objecting to every losing ride.
As for the paying public being allowed to tell them of their poor rides they have that right and the ones berating jockeys are generally ones that haven't paid in and haven't had a bet.
I understand the frustration of backing a loser and sometimes your reaction is to blame the jockey but it is rarely as simple as that.
There are degrees of competence in all sports and every jockey can't be Ruby Walsh but read the horse racing forum and read the loons objecting to every losing ride.
I have huge admiration for most jockeys particularly N.H., but my main problem is the deliberate stopping or injudicious rides that happen too frequently these days and seemed to have multiplied with the advent of this place.
you want to protect jockeys yet dont think the horse should have been disqualified in sligo. Paul Townend could have been seriously injured that night had he come off his horse - surely DQing someone guilty of dangerous riding helps protect jockeys.
That Sligo reversal was a joke. The young fella in question is a shy lad and had basically no idea what he was nodding in agreement to. He should have had somebody in there with him. I hope this goes legal as they will win on appeal from what I have been told.
imo jockeys bring a lot of there problems on themselves..i agree with Wildman on most of his post ..especially over the Sligo race the way the horse was threw out imo was wrong the jock at best should of been banned for a few days..the result should of stood..but each country has there own interpretation of the rules..but jockeys who don't ride out or get it wrong on how many times you go round in a 3m race only have themselves to blame...I respect any man or lady who gets on a horse..and they deserve all the plaudits..but equally when they drop there hands etc they have to pay the price..for me not 14 days..but 3mths?...I also cannot believe how jockeys are banned for taking non performing enhancing drugs!6mths for dettori fallon? 18mths!..silly
I don't think Derek Fox was guilty of dangerous riding,Townend tried to hem him in and he forced his way out,don't forget it was a stable companion that was leading.
Fox was duped by the stewards who then managed to dupe journalists who bought the had to be disqualified line.
Fox was duped by the stewards who then managed to dupe journalists who bought the had to be disqualified line.
Ya you are spot on Tony,every jockey has the right to have a few lines of coke before they mount up,or maybe half a dozen pints just to calm their nerves. Why not is right,i certainly wouldnt mind if the jockey on the horse carrying my cash was full of as you call it a non performing enhancing drugs. Fallon should have got 100 years,thats what he should have got. He epitomises the real flat jockey,he is everything that is wrong with the game. Alot of the jump jockeys are much better characters,usually they come from a different section of society too. Apart from hughes and buick is there any top flat jockey that would be good company for dinner,i cant think of any.
jim
you take me wrong mate..i mean just cos he has a line of a weekend ..but is not stoned on the day then that's his business..of course they carnt be doped up in charge of a horse..its silly to say so..but jesus dettori had 0.00.2 % that means it was taken 3-4 days before the race?...
you take me wrong mate..i mean just cos he has a line of a weekend ..but is not stoned on the day then that's his business..of course they carnt be doped up in charge of a horse..its silly to say so..but jesus dettori had 0.00.2 % that means it was taken 3-4 days before the race?...
many a jockey over the years at the galway festival would burst any breathalyser if they were asked to blow into it(if it didnt o on fire first!)
Is good company for dinner a new criteria for being a jockey.
It is not the function of the BHA to be anti drug campaigners or members of temperance societies.
Jimeen knows who is riding his bets so he should factor that in,his idea that Fallon deserved a 100 year ban for taking cocaine is novel wonder what sentence he would want for someone who stopped a horse for financial gain.
It is not the function of the BHA to be anti drug campaigners or members of temperance societies.
Jimeen knows who is riding his bets so he should factor that in,his idea that Fallon deserved a 100 year ban for taking cocaine is novel wonder what sentence he would want for someone who stopped a horse for financial gain.
Tonight in Roscommon there are 4 flat races and 3 NH races. Tomorrow night in Roscommon there are 3 flat races and 5 NH races. Would it not be far more convenient for jockeys and trainers to have a flat card on one night and a NH card the other?.
Wildmanfromborneo,the one thing that amazes me is people who defend Kieren Fallon,its usually people who dont know anything about him,know nothing about what he has done or what he is capable of.
Presume it is because NH puts heads on the gate Santry? Praise means nothing if there isn't criticism when the time is appropriate. Most in the media here wouldn't dare criticise a jockey, but would lacerate a foreign bug rider on the US Racing. If people would just be fair and objective that wouldn't be a bad start.
The only jockey I know is Eddie Ahern and that's because he is a local lad,I always thought him a fine young man but I get the irony.
One thing Jimeen has to appreciate jockeys cannot be friendly with him because of all this inside information nonsense ( more persecution of jockeys) surely he knows that most here would jump to the wrong conclusions.
One thing Jimeen has to appreciate jockeys cannot be friendly with him because of all this inside information nonsense ( more persecution of jockeys) surely he knows that most here would jump to the wrong conclusions.
The way the media licked Eddie's arse all the way along and then turned on him even before he was found guilty is symptomatic of the problem. for what it's worth, he could have been stable jockey at somewhere like Stoute if he had played his cards right. Shame as when you see some of the guys riding the Khalid Abdullah horses, the Hamdan horses, those decent globe-trotters Dunlop is getting, Ahern is a better jockey than all of those fellas when his head is screwed on. Read he was at a flapping meeting somewhere so obviously isn't taking the appeal seriously. this is a jockey who 'did whatever he wanted' that is why the regulators have to keep a tight reign. The wasting probably messes with their heads.
I'm with Jimeen on this one, a jockey decides to be a jockey nobody puts a gun to his head, most of them are bred from racing families from birth anyway, so your a jockey and your brave you should have no rules considering that without the millions punters pour into this sport every year goes a long way to keeping many of them in a luxurious lifestyle,
Jockeys don't have a luxurious lifestyle,they are in fact savagely underpaid.
Motor racing drivers are paid millions because of the danger element yet that danger has been all but eliminated,jockeys are underpaid yet the dangers are as immense as ever.
Motor racing drivers are paid millions because of the danger element yet that danger has been all but eliminated,jockeys are underpaid yet the dangers are as immense as ever.
Top jockeys are very well paid, usually nearly a full book of rides everyday, many have huge retainers, and because you're a top jockey you're obviously going to amass huge amounts of prise money 10% of that is a huge amount of money, not to mention various sponsorships, and riding work for various trainers also helps swell the bank balance, even the middle of the road jockeys do very well thank you, to say they're savagely underpaid is a gross exagerration.
If you want to know people savagely underpaid in racing try most of the stable staff, now thats not an exaggeration?.
Neill D the flapping story was false apparently - the horse due to be ridden by Eddie Ahern was actually ridden by an Eddie O'Hare(sp?).
The French have the best system - it's basically based on performance with a bare rate for a ride (circa 12,50 a ride) and 8.5% of what is relative to the UK and Ireland exceptional prize money with racing being based primarily on conditions chases and hurdles with allowances based on prize money won in a time frame under that code.
Sadly UK and Irish racing is proliferated with handicaps and a "the worse you run, the better your chance of winning" type attitude from pretty much everyone involved hence the likes of Eddie Ahern and co get caught. Jockeys always stick together hence the "he was a good lad" and "it's such a shame" whilst they expect Joe Public to pick up the tab and keep financing the sport.
As for the drugs issue - racing should sign up to WADA and issue mandatory two year bans to anyone failing a dope test (jockey or trainer's horse etc).
Some of the rules probably need changing or the punishments increasing too - if a rule is constantly being broken then it's clear to me that the punishment isn't harsh enough, 3 months for dropping your hands (what effectively amounts to stupidity) would be fine and 6 months plus for stopping one etc. would be a start.
The French have the best system - it's basically based on performance with a bare rate for a ride (circa 12,50 a ride) and 8.5% of what is relative to the UK and Ireland exceptional prize money with racing being based primarily on conditions chases and hurdles with allowances based on prize money won in a time frame under that code.
Sadly UK and Irish racing is proliferated with handicaps and a "the worse you run, the better your chance of winning" type attitude from pretty much everyone involved hence the likes of Eddie Ahern and co get caught. Jockeys always stick together hence the "he was a good lad" and "it's such a shame" whilst they expect Joe Public to pick up the tab and keep financing the sport.
As for the drugs issue - racing should sign up to WADA and issue mandatory two year bans to anyone failing a dope test (jockey or trainer's horse etc).
Some of the rules probably need changing or the punishments increasing too - if a rule is constantly being broken then it's clear to me that the punishment isn't harsh enough, 3 months for dropping your hands (what effectively amounts to stupidity) would be fine and 6 months plus for stopping one etc. would be a start.
Princesse DAnjou is normally a great poster which is why I am aghast at his last post.
The reason some of these rules are being constantly broken is they are stupid unworkable rules,the dropping of your hands is as Princesse DAnjou correctly states just stupidity but should people have their livelihood taken away for being stupid.
Increased penalties for minor offences will just impoverish jockeys and that to me is dangerous.
Jockeys are scapegoated here for all losing bets but what is more worrying they are also scapegoated by the authorities,here are two examples.
Johnny Murtagh was found to be dehydrated yet rather than be treated with sympathy they gave him a ban.
In an apprentice race in England a horse slipped the field got clear and won,the stewards banned all the other jockeys in the race for riding an injudicious race,it never dawned on the stewards that the reason they rode injudiciously is because they were apprentices.
The reason some of these rules are being constantly broken is they are stupid unworkable rules,the dropping of your hands is as Princesse DAnjou correctly states just stupidity but should people have their livelihood taken away for being stupid.
Increased penalties for minor offences will just impoverish jockeys and that to me is dangerous.
Jockeys are scapegoated here for all losing bets but what is more worrying they are also scapegoated by the authorities,here are two examples.
Johnny Murtagh was found to be dehydrated yet rather than be treated with sympathy they gave him a ban.
In an apprentice race in England a horse slipped the field got clear and won,the stewards banned all the other jockeys in the race for riding an injudicious race,it never dawned on the stewards that the reason they rode injudiciously is because they were apprentices.
tony57
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10 Jun 13 17:04
jim
you take me wrong mate..i mean just cos he has a line of a weekend ..but is not stoned on the day then that's his business..of course they carnt be doped up in charge of a horse..its silly to say so..but jesus dettori had 0.00.2 % that means it was taken 3-4 days before the race?...
FAIR POINT BUT DID HE NOT HAVE ANY RIDES IN THE PREVIOUS 3-4 days
Date Joined: 13 Oct 10
Blogger: tony57's blog
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10 Jun 13 17:04
jim
you take me wrong mate..i mean just cos he has a line of a weekend ..but is not stoned on the day then that's his business..of course they carnt be doped up in charge of a horse..its silly to say so..but jesus dettori had 0.00.2 % that means it was taken 3-4 days before the race?...
FAIR POINT BUT DID HE NOT HAVE ANY RIDES IN THE PREVIOUS 3-4 days
The alcohol tests are at a ridiculously low level remember Davy Russell who is teetotal failed a test because he had used a mouthwash,this is pure persecution and wrong.
If a three month ban isn't the answer then the answer has to be larger financial penalties?
The above is difficult though as a top jockey would have no trouble paying say £2,500 but an apprentice would be left up the creek.
I'd say at least in the UK some of the PJA stuff doesn't always help matters - Paul Struthers corrected an RP journalist a few months ago regarding jockeys wages and pointed out that the average middle of the road jockey will only earn around £20,000 after deducting expenses and the like. I'm sure there's plenty of fellas out there who'd love to deduct things like petrol money, train fares, mortgage payments etc off their annual income and then listing that as what they get paid.
This probably sounds like I hate jockeys reading my past two posts but that's not the case - I just think that with the Murtagh case (presumably he was doing a very low weight) and the case of the young lad at Worcester last Summer (Stephen Clements possibly?) that accepting rides knowing that you are unlikely to be able to ride to the best of your capabilities is just unprofessional, particularly if you're one of the top jockeys like JM is.
Apprentice races are interesting and I agree that in that case the Stewards should have said "maybe you guys should have gone a bit sooner, though he/she did ride a great race from the front" etc.
The treatment of amateur jockeys and stewarding generally has always bugged me - through my pointing and the syndicate I run I've met and know a number of very decent amateurs (we've had three different jockeys on our horse this year, none are big names and I'd recommend any one of them to a trainer/owner should they have a runner over here), prior to last years Foxhunters there was a false start, the jockeys were found in breach of the rules and were all banned for 1-2 days. Prior to the start of the Grand National two days later, the professional jockeys were found in breach of the same/similar rule and a letter was sent home to each of them. Surely if you're going to come down hard on someone it should be those doing the job every day, by nature they're getting paid and as such should be better at it?
As for losing bets there are a number of folk on the horse racing forum who claim it's the jockey at fault nearly all the time - 99.5% of the time I'd say the horse was beaten by a better horse, yes a jockey could go sooner, or have held on to it longer but hindsight is always 20/20 and split second decisions are very difficult to make (particularly on the flat).
The above is difficult though as a top jockey would have no trouble paying say £2,500 but an apprentice would be left up the creek.
I'd say at least in the UK some of the PJA stuff doesn't always help matters - Paul Struthers corrected an RP journalist a few months ago regarding jockeys wages and pointed out that the average middle of the road jockey will only earn around £20,000 after deducting expenses and the like. I'm sure there's plenty of fellas out there who'd love to deduct things like petrol money, train fares, mortgage payments etc off their annual income and then listing that as what they get paid.
This probably sounds like I hate jockeys reading my past two posts but that's not the case - I just think that with the Murtagh case (presumably he was doing a very low weight) and the case of the young lad at Worcester last Summer (Stephen Clements possibly?) that accepting rides knowing that you are unlikely to be able to ride to the best of your capabilities is just unprofessional, particularly if you're one of the top jockeys like JM is.
Apprentice races are interesting and I agree that in that case the Stewards should have said "maybe you guys should have gone a bit sooner, though he/she did ride a great race from the front" etc.
The treatment of amateur jockeys and stewarding generally has always bugged me - through my pointing and the syndicate I run I've met and know a number of very decent amateurs (we've had three different jockeys on our horse this year, none are big names and I'd recommend any one of them to a trainer/owner should they have a runner over here), prior to last years Foxhunters there was a false start, the jockeys were found in breach of the rules and were all banned for 1-2 days. Prior to the start of the Grand National two days later, the professional jockeys were found in breach of the same/similar rule and a letter was sent home to each of them. Surely if you're going to come down hard on someone it should be those doing the job every day, by nature they're getting paid and as such should be better at it?
As for losing bets there are a number of folk on the horse racing forum who claim it's the jockey at fault nearly all the time - 99.5% of the time I'd say the horse was beaten by a better horse, yes a jockey could go sooner, or have held on to it longer but hindsight is always 20/20 and split second decisions are very difficult to make (particularly on the flat).
I agree with you entirely about amateur jockeys,the thing you have to remember is they are amateurs.
Hope the denizens of this forum will take that into account next time they are scarifying poor Katie Harrington.
Race riding isint as easy as you think.
Hope the denizens of this forum will take that into account next time they are scarifying poor Katie Harrington.
Race riding isint as easy as you think.
Wildman is cherry picking a few examples, how about the hundreds of incidents where jockeys get away with absolute murder in this country?.
If you're going to have rules they have to be severe enough to act as a deterrent otherwise it defeats the purpose, Ireland is an incestuous racing nation where the punishment very seldom (if ever?) fits the crime.
If you're going to have rules they have to be severe enough to act as a deterrent otherwise it defeats the purpose, Ireland is an incestuous racing nation where the punishment very seldom (if ever?) fits the crime.
Silvergreaser........In most sports if not all, family members try to carry on tradition. Some not as talented as others. It all depends how you spend your youth.
I think the main point of this thread though gant is that wildman basically thinks jockeys should not have to adhere to any regulation because they're brave men, as I've said previously nobody puts a gun to their heads and the vast majority usually graduate from a racing family from birth.
Nobody puts a gun to the head of guy who wants to become a Lion Tamer either, jockeys particularly jump jockeys know the risks and to be honest I'd say it barely even crosses their minds?.
Nobody puts a gun to the head of guy who wants to become a Lion Tamer either, jockeys particularly jump jockeys know the risks and to be honest I'd say it barely even crosses their minds?.
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