Irish Sports
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i have been looking up racing statistics over the last few weeks. statistics, like information, are a commodity worth soaking up, and then you have to decide to use them to your advantage.
i have been drilling down on irish jumping trainer stats.
now to the discussion point.
4 trainers: philip rothwell, jj hanlon, philip fenton, tom cooper.
from memory the first 2 named have no grade 1 winners to their credit, the latter two have produced at least 2 individual grade 1 winners.
this season, numerically, rothwell and hanlon are amongst the top ten largest strings in the irish jumping game.
rothwell, 56 horses to have run, hanlon 71.
on the other side, fenton and cooper have small strings,
fenton, 14 individual runners, cooper 15.
winners: for all 4
rothwell: 11 winners from his 56 horses, 7 supply the wins.
hanlon: 6 winners from his 71 horses, 4 supply the wins.
fenton: 4 winners from his 14 horses, 3 supply the wins.
cooper: 7 winners from his 15 horses, 5 supply the wins.
would someone please explain the obvious descrepancy in horse numbers?...is there a big difference in training fees?. how do some trainers attract owners and others dont?
my task for you fellow forum members, out of interest, is the following.
pretend you have acquired a horse, rate 1 to 4, the order of the above trainers that you would send it to, if they were your only options.
i have been drilling down on irish jumping trainer stats.
now to the discussion point.
4 trainers: philip rothwell, jj hanlon, philip fenton, tom cooper.
from memory the first 2 named have no grade 1 winners to their credit, the latter two have produced at least 2 individual grade 1 winners.
this season, numerically, rothwell and hanlon are amongst the top ten largest strings in the irish jumping game.
rothwell, 56 horses to have run, hanlon 71.
on the other side, fenton and cooper have small strings,
fenton, 14 individual runners, cooper 15.
winners: for all 4
rothwell: 11 winners from his 56 horses, 7 supply the wins.
hanlon: 6 winners from his 71 horses, 4 supply the wins.
fenton: 4 winners from his 14 horses, 3 supply the wins.
cooper: 7 winners from his 15 horses, 5 supply the wins.
would someone please explain the obvious descrepancy in horse numbers?...is there a big difference in training fees?. how do some trainers attract owners and others dont?
my task for you fellow forum members, out of interest, is the following.
pretend you have acquired a horse, rate 1 to 4, the order of the above trainers that you would send it to, if they were your only options.
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Replies: 48
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1 Cooper
2 Rothwell 3 Fenton 4 Hanlon (would rather train it myself tbh...) |
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I've always admired Cooper but surely to be fair to Hanlon & Rothwell the sample size is too small KL. I mean to get better results i think you should be going back 5 or 10 years. From what i remember Rothwell is quite competitive on prices.
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1 cooper
2 hanlon 3 rothwell 4 fenton and the only reason i'm writing this at 2.20 and not 6 o'clock is because of Nina at leop and the op's tip in the lim bumper |
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Both Rothwell and Hanlon have amazed me with the numbers of horses they have in training.I have have spoken to one of the two on occasion over the years and he has always stuck me as having little or no knowledge of the racing game.With this in mind I would go
1 Cooper 2 Fenton 3 Rothwell 4 Hanlon |
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1. Cooper
2. Fenton 3. Rothwell 4. Hanlon Can't fathom why anyone would send a horse to Shark to be honest. |
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1.cooper
2.fenton 3.rothwell 4.hanlon |
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May 2006-December 2012
Trainer Runners Winners Strike Rate Cooper 744.00 60.00 8.06% Fenton 858.00 82.00 9.56% Hanlon 1220.00 90.00 7.38% Rothwel 2540.00 134.00 5.28% |
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1. Fenton
2.Cooper 3.Shark 4.Rothwell I think Cooper has long punched above his weight- has a fantastic Cheltenham record, think 3 of his 4 runners there one year were placed. From a diesel point of view( a big factor these days) training in Tralee must be a killer. Checking the stats there Paul Nolan has had only 8 winners so far his season which is a big come down |
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Having a large string doesn't mean you have to pile up the winners, you might have a stable of 50 but the average price of those horses might be €5000?. The cheaper the horse usually means less ability, less ability means less winners.
Now if you had a stable chock full of extremely expensive French imports (mostly already proven performers) I'd safely say those 4 trainers mentioned would be drowning in winners, getting high profile winners on a regular basis you get very welcome publicity which usually attracts the more affluent owners, the more flushed your owners are will guarantee you a steady flow of talented horses. I presume virtually every trainer prepares a horse for the racecourse very much the same way?, if the horse is lacking in abilty not an awful lot you can do about that. Statistics mean eff all when its the abilty of the horse (or lack of) that determines those statistics. |
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Yes Silvergreaser the bottom line is these 4 are living off scraps. The classy races here are won by Willie, Noel, Henry etc. However even if you have fifty cheaper horses I think the clever trainers over time will make a name for themselves, winning handicaps and placing moderate horses to win little prizes , and then over time they may move up the scale and attact the big owners. Think Tim Vaughan over in UK ( although it is easier to find bad races there) . The point is that if you can prove you've the knack of it , you will go places.
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shocking stats for rothwell no matter what way you look at it....i think he hada few big owners as well ..having said that , its a damn hard way of making a living ....
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The Sharks stable is packed with expensive horses including Old Kilcash which allegedly cost 320 thousand but he is a poor trainer.He is a fair trainer of owners and pulled off some coup with the Kerry National winner he bought from Charles Byrnes but other than that all he seems to have done is nick Tony Mullins owners,Durkan,Mee and Barry OConnell.
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You got it right Workrider it's a hard way way of making a living. I had a look at statistical summary there of Dusty Sheehy, it would make anyone feel sorry
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I'd say Rothwell is more than capable if given the right ammo, as always in the training profession there's a fine line between success and failure, seems Rothwell had his fair share of bad luck?.
As Philip Rothwell approaches the completion of his first decade as a licensed trainer, now is perhaps a good time to review his career to this point. Rothwell started his training career as a fresh-faced 21-year-old and wasted little time in making an impact, saddling his first winner with just his second runner when Adam’s fool won a bumper at Down Royal on May 3rd 1999. Later that month he saddled his second winner when Little Len won a maiden hurdle at Ballinrobe and the following December, that same horse would give Rothwell the most high-profile win of what was an excellent first season as a trainer when upsetting the mighty Risk Of Thunder in a banks race at Punchestown. Rothwell finished the 1999/2000 season having saddled a career total of 10 winners from 85 runners and with his name becoming more and more well known in racing circles, he well and truly had a breakout season in 2000/1. Rothwell produced a number of prolific performers that term, with seven of his charges winning at least two races a piece, two of those managing to win on three occasions. Perhaps the star of the season was Experimental, who won twice during the course of the season with the highlight undoubtedly being his win in the valuable S.E.R.E. Handicap Hurdle at Down Royal. The season concluded with Rothwell having saddled no less than 29 winners from 276 runners. Not only has Rothwell enjoyed success in the National Hunt arena, rarely does a season go by without him saddling at least one winner on the Flat, with the win of the aforementioned Experimental in the valuable O'Flynn Construction Handicap at Cork in 2001 being the pick of his winners in that sphere. Such a successful season was always going to be a hard act to follow for an emerging trainer and unsurprisingly, the next number of seasons saw Rothwell consolidate his position in the Irish training ranks, comfortably registering double-figure tallies of winners without threatening his 2000/1 total or entering the big-race winner’s enclosure. However, that latter fact changed for the better in 2005 with a sequence of big-race wins being kicked off by the emergence of a horse called Black Apalachi. Having made a successful debut in a bumper at Down Royal in early-2004 and winning a maiden hurdle at Downpatrick in late-2004, the son of Old Vic was pitched into testing company and he duly responded, causing a 20/1 shock when winning the Grade 2 Woodlands Park 100 Johnstown Novice Hurdle at Naas in February 2005. Better still was to come when he was sent over fences the following season, with him winning a maiden chase at Thurles prior to causing yet another 25/1 upset when winning the highly-valuable Paddy Power Chase at the Christmas meeting at Leopardstown. In between those two wins, Rothwell enjoyed another valuable success when sending out Amorini to win The People Newspapers Bettyville Handicap Chase at Wexford. However, those wins were pushed to the background just a few short months later when, at the Theatre Of Dreams that is the Cheltenham Festival, Rothwell saddled Native Jack for the Sporting Index Cross Country Handicap Chase. Sent off as the 7/2 joint-favourite, the revitalised 12-year-old produced a gritty performance under Davy Russell to get the better of the Cross-Country King Spot Thedifference by two lengths, prompting emotional scenes of celebration in the winner’s enclosure. That win kick-started a revival in Rothwell’s progression and since then, he hasn’t looked back. The following season he registered his best tally of winners in five years, visiting the winner’s enclosure of 17 occasions and while the season lacked a big-race win, a number of his horses hinted that it would not be long before they stepped up to the plate in valuable contests and that duly happened in 2007/8. Dark Bolero was the horse in question, winning the valuable Guinness Handicap Hurdle at the Listowel Harvest Festival in great style. By the end of the season, his horses had won no less than 26 races, the second-best tally of winners Rothwell had achieved in his career at that stage. Unfortunately, that season also saw the death of one of Rothwell’s most promising horses, the Gigginstown Stud-owned Call Bewleys. The then seven-year-old had impressed when winning a beginners chase earlier in the season and was running well in a Grade 2 event at Leopardstown in January when taking a fatal fall at the last. If 2007/8 was considered a huge success for Rothwell, 2008/9 bettered it by some margin. In fact, it proved to be the best season in Rothwell’s entire career. Undoubtedly the star performer of the season was the remarkably progressive Jamies Choice who won no less than five handicap chases in the first half of the season, culminating with him winning the valuable Alchemy Properties Handicap Chase at Cork in October. Unfortunately, that would prove to be the second-last start of his career, as he was killed just a few short months later. Other Rothwell-trained horses to acquit themselves very well indeed during the course of the season were the three-time winner Beneficial Spirit, as well as the dual winners Dal Cais, Rockers Field and The God Of Love, all of whom contributed to his best-ever seasonal tally of 32 winners. 2009/10 has started off in highly-encouraging fashion for Rothwell, with him already having saddled 14 winners at the time of writing in mid-September. If he can maintain a similar strike-rate for the remainder, he looks to have strong prospects of achieving yet another career-best tally of winners. In 2012 The Rothwell yard has had 10 winners since January and 52 placed horses to date. |
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The Shark's most competent contribution to Horse Training is driving the lorry.
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Fenton, Hanlon, Cooper and Rothwell in that order.
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PS, Rothwell is a disgrace with all his non runners imo.
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after speaking to you yesterday at leopardstown i thought it was only twitter for you now , seeing as how you are here , give us a run down on yesterday soapp...
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sorry soapp just noticed it on the other thread...
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What is it about the Shark…. doesn’t seem to get the desired results from the quantity of horses at his disposal
1. Is it the quality of the horses? 2. Is it lack of ability on his part? 3. Is there another reason? |
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It's definitely number 2.
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great thread keen leader,
im amazed at how poor the record is of the 4..i remember rothwell sometimes came over here and had winners at sedgefield..ayr..but if i had to pick it...fenton rothwell cooper, shark..i must say the shark has had the worst season i can remember...as has been stated he has enough horses..and some costing enough?..if i remember rightly i think he mentioned a food problem....? |
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I think Cooper isn't a bad trainer. Fenton had a lot of bumper winners in the couple of years that Brian O' Connell was riding amateur and a lot of them never went on afterwards. Dunguib at least won races over hurdles and Caim Hill has been a great servant but he had a lot more that looked promising but never came to anything. He still tips away though with smaller numbers. Venture Capital ran a nice race on ground he wouldn't have liked in Limerick.
The other two mentioned are on a different planet though. Rothwell is an abysmal trainer. He's the epitome of the celtic tiger trainer. When he was able to buy nice horses he had a few passable years. His main strategy was to run the ring off them and some will hit the target. When things got tough and he had to try and make out with cheaper horses he was well and truly found out. Apparently he was told in no uncertain terms by Gigginstown why the horses were being taken off him. I think it is a well known fact that Hanlons knowledge of horses isn't expansive. His main job is to deal with the owners and drive the lorry. It is also quite a poor operation and the fact that connected parties own a fair number of the stable contributes to why the stats are so desperate as they seem intent of running their horses into the ground. I've heard its a funny sight watching his horses going round on the gallops at home getting the heads pucked off them on "easy" mornings. |
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allduck,..why would barry connell spend a lot of money and give the shark the horse?..in england if a trainer had the record he had i know big owners would not be knocking at his door?..not with big money purchase anyway?...
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Did Martin Pipe in his heyday ever have easy mornings?, galloped up a mountain every morning and never done them any harm, in fact they always had a fitness edge which allowed them to mop up races, cue Aidan O'Brien copying the Pipe strategy and getting bundles of winners.
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I imagine he talks a good fight tony. I suppose Connell would rather be a big fish in a small pond as opposed to being down the feeding chain if he had horses with WPM.
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fair point ..thanks mate
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Silver i'm not going to go round in circles with you again because I believe you be either fundamentally ignorant with regard to horses as most betting shop people are or else intentionally obtuse. Arguing with you is a futile exercise when the responses are always the same.
I will say though that Pipe was able to get the edge because he was taking on horses that spent three days a week walking around country roads. He was revolutionary at the time but that advantage has long been eroded so trainers have to find different ways to get the best out of their horses. |
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I think when Seamus Dunne moved all his horses from PF it was a massive blow to him. In fairness they didn't seem to improve or dis improve significantly in the other yards they appeared in
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Allduckornodinner
30 Dec 12 19:15 Silver i'm not going to go round in circles with you again because I believe you be either fundamentally ignorant with regard to horses as most betting shop people are or else intentionally obtuse. Arguing with you is a futile exercise when the responses are always the same. I will say though that Pipe was able to get the edge because he was taking on horses that spent three days a week walking around country roads. He was revolutionary at the time but that advantage has long been eroded so trainers have to find different ways to get the best out of their horses. Apologies that I didn't reply earlier as I was booked in for an extented family meal, a thing we do every year this time of the year, so a belated reply. I'll take your retort like a Duck to water, forgive the pun, nothing you've said has proven I was wrong or you're are right. I take the stand that the horses ability is foremost, you've slaughtered Rothwell without any facts that can hold up to any real close scrutiny. So what exactly makes your opinion more important than mine, except for the fact you resorted to name calling?. Give me some solid evidence then! |
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A 5% strike rate over the last 6 years would suggest Rothwell wouldn't train Ivy up a wall,also the fact that Gigginstown no longer give him anything to train.
I know SG that you will say that he hasn't had the ammo(quality) but I would suggest he gets a similar quality to Cooper and Fenton who have managed to operate at twice his strike rate and have also both enjoyed successes in graded level with a fraction of the volume that Rothwell has had. |
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Still doesn't prove anything conclusively dj, he's had some decent years, so what has gone wrong over the last 3 or 4 years, has his training regime changed (I presume he still trains the same as he use to do?) or has the quality of animal just been pretty sh1t?.
He was never a prolific trainer, trainers like him never are, they live on scraps, a few bad years worse trainer that ever existed??. |
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Which year was decent??
2002-18/243 = 4% 2003-15/268 = 6% 2004-14/247 = 6% Rothwell is being compared here to Cooper and Fenton(not Mullins and Meade). Is it not fair to say that they have got a similar standard of horses?? |
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I've seen many similar trainers who were once thought of as decent trainers lucky to get 2 or 3%, a couple of years out of the limelight and you're history, you spend your days setting one up for the yearly expenses.
Now Willie the hero Mullins can sit pretty everyday knowing Santy will bring him a sackful every season. |
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And no better **** to screw the public over than Wille "I'm the greatest trainer of all time" Mullins, more like I train my horses the same as virtually every other trainer but somehow I fell into a bucket of sh1t and came out smelling of the greatest Irish horse trainer of alltime?
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sg have you anything good to say about anyone?!?
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Your argument is nonsense SG. Willie is a very talented trainer, he has built a business the same as any other man would build any business IF they were good at what ever they were doing. I could put a sign up on the garage outside 'Horse Trainer' but I wouldnt have top animals sent to me to be trained.
To say that all trainers train exactly the same way is complete bo77ocks |
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To suggest that WM has got where he is by luck is totally incorrect. He is head and shoulders above 99% of the trainers in both Ireland and the UK. Willie does not say anything about how good he is but lets his horses do the talking.
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ah no, i agree wil sil.wm is a bullsh1tter.his pr exercises are nothing but to promote himself and attract gullible new naive owners that are in the money.and thats whats despicable about him ,hes ruthless when hes doing the con.his public utterances on any racing channel or his racing post column is nothing but bullsh1tt.a hard nose tough geezer u might say but i prefare honesty and decency myself.
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