Frankel and other greats in my racing lifetime

I had my horse racing baptism in and around the late 70's early 80's although I was putting on bets for my father and grandfather since I was knee high to a grasshopper, nowadays if a women walks into a bookie shop with a sleeping child in a pram, she'd be kicked out as the child is underage, although the child is only 4 months old, such is the political correct madness we're forced to live in these days.

I remember looking at Golden Fleece in the Curragh parade ring before his Ballymoss (now tattersalls) romp, a monster of a horse, he came from miles back to win the Epsom Derby, so quickly did he make his ground up Pat actually reigned him back a little and then unleashed him again, to this day I don't think I've seen a better Derby winner, and when pushed as to what horse he thought was the best he's ever ridden Pat was enclined to plumb for Golden Fleece, considering Dancing Brave and El Gran Senor were serious competitors?.

The horse could've been anything, but unortunately the lure of the yankee dollar meant the horse was syndicated almost immediately a business decision pure and simple.

Frankel the greatest and Golden Fleece the one who might have been?.

Such a shame they are taking on the world with this fella.

The Big owners get more pleasure from seeing there horses becoming stallions and especially when it is a homebred. One chapter ends but arguably the more exciting chapter will start now and we will see how much he can bring to the track.

The Prince doesn't need the money but he will command a price above Sea The Stars.

Over a mile plus there are a lot in the mix .

Frankel near the top ratings and impression wise .  Always hard to distinguish between generations , particularly as since the seventies there has been more emphasis on speed than previously .

Over the years the horses I rated the best of their year or era included
Ribot , Sea Bird , Vaguely Noble , Nijinsky , Brigadier Gerard , Mill Reef , Secretariat , Roberto , Shergar , Dancing Brave ( reluctantly ), then a few French horses whose names escape me , onto the more recent ones which include some of Aidan's stars , then Sea the Stars . Must have missed some of Vincents there to , Sir Ivor and Nijinsky being the stars along with Affirmed .  Trouble with rating a lot of Vincents was that their jockey was about a stone better than most of his competitors .

One thing that distinguishes my list from others that appear was that I felt able to back all of them ( not Secretariat ) without fear of losing my money or not getting a run for it . Santa Claus would also join the throng in that respect as I had the word about him from early on and backed him all winter for the English Derby , Scobie put the icing on the cake .

The ones that made me the most money were Santa Claus , Vaguely ( 8/1 for the Observer Gold Cup ) Nijinsky ( always short but nailed on , a la Frankel ) and Mill Reef ( Derby down to 3/1 ) , and profit always does obscure  dispassionate judgement . The thing about Vincents was that Lester was always on the best one , none of your stablemates popping up like what happens fairly regularly now .

Frankel is top 5 without any question , I am happy with that  , might be the best ever , but that debate could continue well into the night , Secretariat was unbelievable , and this year proved how difficult it was to win the Triple Crown a la Nijinsky . All 3 of those firmly in my top 5 .

The greatest ever?  Usually a difficult question to answer.  Not in this case

It is US legend Secretariat. He broke three track records to win the 1973 US Triple Crown which, incredibly, all still stand today. His time of two minutes 24 seconds for the last leg — the mile-and-a-half Belmont Stakes — is also still the world record.

How can you beat that?

Ozy , the only definitive answer to your question re Secretariat is that , like Frankel , he never raced outside of his home patch .  Most of the other greats won outside their native heath and they have to be given brownie points for that as travelling does affect most horses .

Odds are that both of them would have been equally brilliant with a bit of travel miles on the clock , but we will never know . Keeps debate going though !

How can Frankel be rated the best when he never won a Mile and a half, the ultimate test of the Flat racehorse breed.

Dancing Brave destroyed Green Desert in a slow run guineas, after Swinburne had got first run,Swinburne quote "Ive never been going int the dip faster at Newmarket" Green Desert went on to be champion sprinter.
The rest of the brave's career well known, undoubtedly a superior horse to frankel, I think Racing has been watching to much x factor nonsense, the whole of yesterday overhyped, sentimental rubbish.

undoubtly a superior horse to frankel....!!! thats some statement.

yeah but what did big red beat?

Beating the ex-Marco Botti horse three times does not make you the best-ever.

STS arguably achieved more in his 3yo season than Frankel did in two years.

Frankel for me will always be a case of "what might have been?"

No Breeders' Cup jaint, for example; in addition, a 7f "catch-weight" race vs. Black Cavier would've been one for the ages.

Yeats for me the greatest racehorse of all time

I cant understand why they didnt take one punt with the horse, i.e. the arc or the breeders cup. For me he's the best i've seen but im left with an empty feeling

The Arc would have been a 50 million punt , Moneypenny .  If he had run in soft ground over a mile and a half at the end of a season and got beaten his value would have halved .

The business about the value of a horse for breeding purposes leaves me scratching my head a bit .  On paper there have been loads of world beaters , but its only when the second and third season progeny appear and start to perform that you can assess a stallions worth .  Up to then its largely smoke and mirrors and hype .

As for 9 million for a dud yearling ..!!!

50 million to Prince Khalid is 50 quid to me and you Kelly.

If he had been beaten it would also have knocked on the head "the best ever" possibility .

Any defeat would have weakened the concept of invincibility which is a factor in owners ( any) thinking when they have a horse of the calibre of a Frankel or its like .

Cant blame them at all , think I would have followed the same course of action , except maybe for taking in a race in Ireland .

Well in my opinion he can never be described as best ever for the very reason he didnt travel anywhere. Dancing brave was beaten in the breeders cup, Nijinsky lost in the Arc and I would hold both of them horses in a higher regard despite those defeats. At least they had a go.

i agree. i dont mind the lack of travel per say but the reason he IS unbeaten is because he raced over a mile almost his entire career and other than his last ever race was he asked to actually run in a race where conditions didnt 100% suit him.

had he taken in races like the derby or arc he'd have been beaten imo, little doubt in my mind.

i mean i know the ground was soft the other day and CDA was well beat even if it wasnt by 8 but its just CDA.

lovely horse hes not half the horse sts, BG, dancing brave , nijinsky was and frankel was asked a serious enough question for me to happily say hes not the greatest ive ever seen.

We're all tied to our age, hence why I think Golden Fleece could've been the super horse he looked like in the the Derby, Don't forget he beat a horse called Assert twice, to say Pat could've went through a whole packet of cigars such was the horses total dominance is an understatement.

true.

watched GF derby on youtube recently, one of the more impressive derby winners i've seen. reminded me a bit of Galileo.

sea the stars run in the arc was the most impressive i've ever seen a horse run. for a horse to pull so much and still win. frankels run in the 2000 guineas was special aswell, with all his runs really.

Ozymandius 21 Oct 12 09:31
The greatest ever?  Usually a difficult question to answer.  Not in this case
It is US legend Secretariat. He broke three track records to win the 1973 US Triple Crown which, incredibly, all still stand today. His time of two minutes 24 seconds for the last leg — the mile-and-a-half Belmont Stakes — is also still the world record.
How can you beat that?

With
1 ½ Miles  Hawkster  3  121  Santa Anita Park  10/14/1989  2:22 4/5

Big fan of Golden fleece but he only ran 4 times and as much as i liked the horse could never include him as he never truely proved himself folowing an injury

Silvergreaser has changed since the halcyon days of Golden Fleece,the worst case of stopping I ever saw was the job done on Assert the day Golden Fleece beat him at Leopardstown.