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13 Feb 12 14:55
Date Joined: 22 Feb 06
| Topic/replies: 3,016 | Blogger: mincer11's blog
Colm has announced that his star mare will head for the World Hurdle without an other run.Now i have never ever rated Murphy as much of a trainer even though he has had a good return from some Grade 1 horses,overall i find it a much of a muchness outfit.He has been lucky with a few once in a lifetime animals supplied by small owners,the likes of Big Zeb,Voler La Vedette,Brave Inca,Feathard Lady,Zaarito are extremely unlikely to be replaced.There is every likelihood that next year he wont have a horse of any consequence in his yard depending on how Quito De La Roque fares at Cheltenham if he does actually even get there.Back to voler la vedette and this decision is a real headscratcher,it has one horse to beat in the mares race,it would have been around 3 or 7/2,it will be 16/1 in the world hurdle and looks to have no realistic chance.Strange choice but not a surprising one.
Pause Switch to Standard View Colm Murphy and Voler La Vedette
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Report paddywhacker1970 February 16, 2012 10:09 PM GMT
I discuss racing with people away from the computer all the time, but if I am not 100% sure of something, I will always say that I'm not 100% on it. I couldn't put too much faith in anyone that bullishly comes out with statements such as that Brave Inca was sent chasing when they are clearly wrong. I would be embarrassed to make such a glaring error, but I evidently set higher standards for myself than you.
Report wildmanfromborneo February 16, 2012 10:28 PM GMT
Don`t be so nervous,i was asked a question by Neill d it was after midnight so i answered off the top of my head, would you really have gone scurrying for old form books.You sound like a fence sitter afraid to give an opinion or answer a question,wouldn`t think decision making would be your forte.These conversations must be of some duration while you nervously make sure there are no mistakes and a bit stilted.
As for your higher standards if you think knowing nothing,retaining nothing and being totally reliant on a computer for knowledge are high standards then good luck to you.
Report mincer11 February 16, 2012 10:36 PM GMT
Neill D,BI and Distant View havent cleared up anything whatsoever.Tony McCoy is contracted to JP Mcmanus so obviously he would have had to ride Clan Royal and Wichita Lineman in their respective races.Walshs retainer is with Nicholls and if they had a runner in the Challow hurdle then he wouldnt have ridden Brave Inca either.He did after all ride Celestial Halo in a champion hurdle over Brave Inca after winning the Irish Champion hurdle on its previous start.Its obvious McCoy doesnt like the members of the syndicate,he has said so on more than one occasion.BI has now tried to distance himself from the other members by saying he was a silent partner,oddly enough i find that hard to swallow.Heres a good question though who were the owners of the last grade 1 winner at  Cheltenham to never have their colours carried again by any horse with the trainer who supplied them with the winner ?
Report wildmanfromborneo February 16, 2012 10:41 PM GMT
Mincer i don`t know the answer but as we speak Paddywhacker is scouring form books,consulting friends but by the time he gets the answer one of us will have died.
Report wildmanfromborneo February 16, 2012 10:43 PM GMT
And 1.01 its me
Report ReimerpYsatnaf February 16, 2012 10:46 PM GMT
Wilman fair enough you try to remember everything, however last night Temlett corrected you about Brave Inca never going over fences and you came back again and said he did. Fair enough you got it wrong but if that was me when i was corrected i would of took 2 minutes to check it as i was already on the computer and then corrected myself, or if in fact i was correct i would know for certain then.
Report paddywhacker1970 February 16, 2012 10:49 PM GMT
Whatever you say, Wildman. This is 2012, only dinosaurs use form books. It would have taken any remotely computer competent person approximately 15 seconds to type Brave Inca into any of the major racing websites and confirm whether he went chasing or not. By all means, continue to peddle out your jumbled opinions, you will continue to get shot down and be made look foolish.
Report Distant View February 16, 2012 10:50 PM GMT
Dunguib would be 1 anyway given that the next horse went to Martin.

It is obvious what mincer is getting at here, but how many syndicates, even successful ones did not buy another horse, despite enjoying success? I don't recall the syndicate members involved in Essex buying another after he retired (although they had others while Essex was around).

Have the owners of Go Native bought again?

Finances can be one reason for not getting involved again. There may be other reasons obviously.
Report mitch leary February 16, 2012 11:09 PM GMT
if youve owned a champion hurdler or champion chaser for example then finances shouldn't be a barrier for getting involved again.
Report wildmanfromborneo February 16, 2012 11:10 PM GMT
I am a dinosaur and not computer literate[i have told ye often enough] so don`t mind but my memory is sound,try shooting me down if you like but doubt you or your computer would stand a chance,you didn`t even do it this time you cowardly piggy backed on another poster eleven hours after the event,
Reimerpysatnaf bearing in mind the above paragraph you will realise i was typing when  Temlett made his post but if it makes you feel good thats fine.It took ye 15 months and a drunken slip to come up trumps but if you like someone to test your knowledge try answering a few questions in my next quiz but as both you and  Paddywhacker are totally reliant on outside help and slow as snails the quiz will be over and the question answered by posters with a Corinthian spirit who will just rely on their own knowledge.I can see the pair of ye at a table quiz under a table getting the answers and winning but to me thats not winning thats fooling yourselves.
Report ReimerpYsatnaf February 16, 2012 11:17 PM GMT
Reimerpysatnaf bearing in mind the above paragraph you will realise i was typing when  Temlett made his post but if it makes you feel good thats fine.It took ye 15 months and a drunken slip to come up trumps but if you like someone to test your knowledge try answering a few questions in my next quiz but as both you and  Paddywhacker are totally reliant on outside help and slow as snails the quiz will be over and the question answered by posters with a Corinthian spirit who will just rely on their own knowledge.I can see the pair of ye at a table quiz under a table getting the answers and winning but to me thats not winning thats fooling yourselves.

Wildman what in gods name are you going on about?, i only posted what i thought may have been best for you to do and what i would have done in that situation. You seem to have gone off on a rant at me as per usual for no apparent reason and i have not got a clue what you are going on about to be honest. It took me 15 months and a drunken slip to come up trumps??? I am literally baffled by what that is supposed to mean Confused I don't rely on anybodies help Wildman and i put a hell of a lot of hours work into my punting. As for a table quiz, no thanks when i'm not working i'd rather enjoy myself and that is not my idea of fun, but hey each to their own.
Report paddywhacker1970 February 16, 2012 11:17 PM GMT
Whatever you say, Wildman.
Report Distant View February 16, 2012 11:21 PM GMT
That is nonsense mitch leary.

You could have had a business which has gone belly up. You could have bought at the height of the property market and have huge negative equity which you have to address. You could have lost your employment and have to rely (hopefully) on savings that you have put away.

If you are in a syndicate of any size and the pot is divided among many people (after trainer and jockey %), you would be doing very well to have earned a princely sum from owning a horse. Even a horse like Brave Inca who earned about the €1m mark and he is obviously right at the top end of earnings, would not provide a syndicate owner with a financial nest egg. I don't know how many was in the syndicate but if it was 8 or 10 then we are dividing up a gross win of at most €800,000 minus 6 or 7 years training at a guess, among the syndicate. This might leave about €600 - €650k or so to be divided among the estimated 8 or 10.

That proportion will come in very nicely if you have fallen on hard times, but if it was used to buy a house etc at the time he won his races, it would have been wiped out and much more since then.

For other owners that may have won a supreme like Go Native, there would be practically nothing to fall back on.
Report wildmanfromborneo February 16, 2012 11:31 PM GMT
Reimerpysatnaf you read the thread in the cold light of day and you made a mistake with regards Temlett.
If someone met you at the dogs and asked you a question would you have to get on your computer to answer.
I think you and Paddywhacker are devoid of thought and confidence,terrified of making a mistake unable to answer simple questions without a crutch,ye both appear to me like men who would be ringing tipping lines and need constant reassuring,not sure punting suits either of ye.
Report wildmanfromborneo February 16, 2012 11:33 PM GMT
1.01 ye are both civil servants,don`t make a decision commission a report.
Report Distant View February 16, 2012 11:34 PM GMT
I have met PF at the dogs on a number of occasions wildman and his knowledge is outstanding.
Report wildmanfromborneo February 16, 2012 11:36 PM GMT
Distant View if you couldn`t beat him into a cocked hat i`d give up.
Report wildmanfromborneo February 16, 2012 11:38 PM GMT
I meant i will give up.
Report ReimerpYsatnaf February 16, 2012 11:39 PM GMT

Ask me any question you want about dogs in the last 10 years or so Wildman, come to Shelbourne seen as i won't have a computer with me then and i'll answer them on the spot for ye.

I am devoid of thought and confidence. Bloody heck do you not read my threads?? I am probably way too opinionated and will argue my case to death, however if i am proved wrong i will admit it. As for confidence i have the upmost confidence in my ability, especially on greyhounds hence why i have no problem once i'm on giving those my opinions, sure ask some from the greyhound forum, there are some that frequent here too.

I would be ringing tipping lines Laugh You are not sure punting suits me, why not ask workrider then who i do spend a good bit of time on course with if punting suits me, that should clear it up for you.

Did your CSI or Criminal Minds experience make up come up with those profiles of me??
Report ReimerpYsatnaf February 16, 2012 11:41 PM GMT
Thanks DV, not sure he'll believe ye though. Unlucky tonight, need to be doing 28.70-80 now to win an A2-A3 at SPK
Report wildmanfromborneo February 16, 2012 11:44 PM GMT
Look i am overstating my case for a bit of fun,i always read your posts and i like them[your post on Quel Esprit was brilliant] and considering you prefer them dogs very impressive.
I always believe Distant View and do here, another on my list of great posters.
Report Distant View February 16, 2012 11:46 PM GMT
He is not running that track or trapping at all. He has trapped fine in places like the Wild Goose, Dundalk etc but he is appalling out of those boxes. Obviously in 2 dog trials etc, it is hard to tell but some that he has trialed with are not getting left the way he is on a consistent basis.

He will not be brought back there again, or at least not for a while anyway. Might try him over a bit further now that he is older, but we will campaign him at some other tracks as well. It would be handier for one of the owners who is based in Armagh and would give me an excuse to see if any life has been breathed into Dundalk on a Friday night, while also giving me an excuse to join the rest of them for a good session back home.
Report ReimerpYsatnaf February 16, 2012 11:48 PM GMT
I could possibly have got a tad lucky on Quel Esprit the way the race cut up but i would back him at 5/1 and 4/1 in that field any day, would of rathered the other 2 ran to be honest to i suppose prove me right or wrong.
Report Distant View February 16, 2012 11:49 PM GMT
I would agree with you PF.

Not gaining the respect of Shaneboy must really have taken the gloss off the ante post win.
Report ReimerpYsatnaf February 16, 2012 11:52 PM GMT
Yeah his trial in Dundalk was good and over a trip that would be too short for him so you'd imagine he'd do well up there.

Anyway off to bed, shattered. GL lads Grin
Report wildmanfromborneo February 16, 2012 11:52 PM GMT
Late at night Dr Jeckyll takes over and Mr Hyde is banished.
Report mincer11 February 17, 2012 8:54 AM GMT
Distant View,the question i asked was simple to understand,it was obvious that  it was who was the last owner/owners not to replace a Grade I Cheltenham winner,not to supply the trainer with another horse.Dunguib is still around and is still trained by Philip Fenton,likewise Go Native is still trained by Noel Meade.Most people will not have any more than one horse at a time,that is quite understandable.Its a real measure of the syndicate that even with all this success with a miracle horse,that they decided not to give it another go.In all likelihood they were more than likely bickering over the running and riding of the one horse they had so another one wasnt going to be posssible.It looks to me that McCoy was actually right about the novices syndicate all along.
Report Allduckornodinner February 17, 2012 9:26 AM GMT
Lar Byrne hasn't had anything with Dessie or indeed anyone else bar what was already intraining since Hardy Eustace retired.

I don't know about the Novices syndicate but theres any number of reasons why a syndicate doesn't go in on another horse. Quite often people drop out and new people come in and new syndicates are formed. I'd be surprised if at least some of the syndicate haven't gone in on another horse since.
Report mincer11 February 17, 2012 10:17 AM GMT
Lar Byrne had 3 horses in training with Dessie Hughes,two of which were still there after hardy eustace was retired.Lar Byrne was a single entity with 3 horses to pay for all on his own,the novices bill was divided 10 ways,so therefore Lar Byrnes outlay was 30 times as much as each member of the novices.Lar Byrne was involved in 2 businesses around Carlow,its possible these were no longer able to carry the luxury of owning racehorses,i dont know his personal circumstances but alot of people who had horses during the tiger years no longer have them.BI on the other hand had 10% of the bill but of course wanted 100% of the say,the same as the other 9 members.He has gone one better now though,you can join a syndicate now run by him where he has 100% of the say and he doesnt even pay the 10% of the bill.You can according to todays racing post send him your 4yo mare on a free lease and they will put a set of their own colours on it and give it to Colm Murphy to train it.That sounds like a cracking deal,i'd say the phone is hopping.
Report Allduckornodinner February 17, 2012 10:53 AM GMT
Mincer as you said yourself it was a simple question you asked and the way you termed if suggests you were looking to know when was the last time a horse wasn't replaced. The other wo raced in tandem with Hardy and Paddy Curry continued on for another season while Jimmy Ber finished up the same time as the great horse. However, no new horses were put in training by the owner. The circumstances why he didn't go in again are irrelevant to your question unless you are just twisting things to suit your own rationale.

On a side note free leasing of fillies has become very popular amongst small breeders in the last four or five years. The sales market for these fillies has disappeared and often the owners cannot afford training fee's. The only two options available to many is to either shoot them or, much more preferable for them, lease them to a trainer. If they do anything then the breeder has a much more valuable commodity on their hands to breed with or sell on as a broodmare. If thy are proved to be useless then at least it didn't cost them a fortune in training fee's. Arrangements like this would be an extension of the age old tradition of breeders giving a half share to a trainer in exchange for no training fee's in the hope of flogging on the horse.
Report mincer11 February 17, 2012 11:14 AM GMT
Now allduckornodinner i know a little bit about Lar Byrne,a little more than i am going to put up on a betting forum.Basically Lar Byrne is a very decent man and would have horses still if circumstances allowed.You can be absolutely certain that anybody who trained or rode for him would have nothing untoward to say about him.The same quite obviously cannot be said about these novices syndicate as Mr McCoy has proved.On the point of the 4/5 yo mare.Are you trying to tell me that i maybe buy a yearling mare or else breed a mare who has a winning sibling or black type dam,shes clean winded,broken/riding and everything about her seems fine.Ive put 4 or 5 years work into her and these yahoos not only want me to give it to them for nothing but they want to tell me who is training it too.They want me to let my mare carry their colours so they can jump around the parade ring draped in an Irish flag if it happens to be successful.A pyramid scheme sounds more attractive than this and surely there arent people falling for this rubbish in this day and age.
Report Allduckornodinner February 17, 2012 11:25 AM GMT
Well Mincer if circumstances have changed for Lar then that is very unfortunate. He had horses in training a long time before the tiger years and seemed a very personable man when interviewed. The kind of fella that deserves to have a real good horse for what he would have spent over the years.

If you have a clean winded well bred mare then you should be able to find a buyer for her if you cannot afford to out her in training yourself. If you have her broken and riding and you like her then you'll run her if possible. If you can't afford to run her then what do you want? Her running in your own colours and not paying fee's? Theres trainers now who will train for prizemoney and deals can be done with them. However, not having seen the ad, I would assume that this is targeted at breeders with fillies who they can't sell and don't have many options. It's a win/win situation for the breeder as far as I can see. I wouldn't give a fook if there were other lads in the ring in Cheltenham with her (and that is a real pie in the sky notion) because it would mean i've a festival winner to breed from and I would say that any breeder would take that.
Report mincer11 February 17, 2012 12:32 PM GMT
Well allduckornodinner i'd rather shoot the mare than give it to these yahoos to race it as they see fit with the trainer of their choice.The add clearly states the mare must have a winning sybling or black type dam,must be either 4 or 5 yo,must be clean winded and broken/riding,the lease must be free and it has to be trained by Murphy.These people dont want much do they,forgive me but i dont see the win/win situation for the real owner of the animal involved.
Report Distant View February 17, 2012 2:17 PM GMT
You seem to have a fair axe to grind with them, but that really does not interest me.

This leasing of mares has been going on for years. Is that not what the Elite Racing guru has been doing via his club? He has established a strong band of broodmares such as Kalinka, Soviet Song etc and managed to get those "interested in the thrill of owning a horse" to cover all expenses while establishing their worth for breeding. The breeder seems to have the upper hand in these cases, provided that the mare is leased to a capable trainer.

I would have no interest in a lease myself as I would want the reward at the end of a racing career if she was useful. Having said that I would have no interest in a syndicate either as it compromises your betting, objectivity and ability to lay in a race.
Report BI February 17, 2012 2:23 PM GMT
Mincer, your posts do have a comic element to them. I have received nearly 100 calls to our ad. All willing to offer a free lease, some pushing hard for us to take their mare. None of them feeling hard done. All recognising that we are funding it and they can't afford to go to Murphy or anyone else. But we are careful when spending members money, just as we are when we are buying geldings. So over Christmas, we picked up a 5 year old full sister to 3 winners including Master of the Hall and Featherbed Lane. Now she might be useless but the owner has no money to train her or breed from her and he's delighted that we will give her the chance. If she does well, he profits. If she doesn't, he hasn't lost out. We syndicated her in a week. We are now looking for another, similar type, and have a few on the radar.

Which brings me to your incorrect statement re our syndicates. I own 10% of every horse, unlike what you say. Paid in full on day one. This is not one of those phantom "free" shares. I have my money in a designated syndicate account for our next horse, along with a few new members who can't wait to get involved in a horse. The syndicates are transparent and that's what they like. Books and records produced, bank recs etc. All outgoings at cost not an expenisve all in rate.

Wildman, all the syndicate members were male. Obviously there would have been wider family, like all other syndicates. We have retained lifetime registration of the syndicate and its colours. My family continue to own horses through my syndicates. I'd be more than happy to join up again with the other family but I think they correctly view Brave Inca as a once in a lifetime horse. That is their perrogative. I wouldn't rule out a return for the colours, we just need to find the right horse and have it as a family, or two family, horse. It's amazing how people can read things completely wrong.
Report wildmanfromborneo February 17, 2012 2:32 PM GMT
Well you did get a once in a lifetime horse and i am sure ye had some never to be forgotten moments.I hope you enjoyed my mixing him up with Limestone Lad as they were both tough durable honest horses of the old school.
Report Distant View February 17, 2012 2:37 PM GMT
I loved Limestone Lad myself.

I did not like the objection that the Bowe's put in at Cheltenham when beaten by Bacchanal. It smacked of nothing other than sour grapes.
Report wildmanfromborneo February 17, 2012 2:43 PM GMT
The ground beat him that day,J.P. had a 100 grand on him at 3/1 with the late Freddie Williams.
He was one of my favourites also never knew when he was beat.
Report silvergreaser February 17, 2012 3:48 PM GMT
If we had more people like the Bowes Irish racing would be a much better place, no subterfuge with them you knew their horses were trying all the time, the remarkable records of Limestone Lad and Solerina to name just two are a testament to their utmost integrity, not too often you can say that about an Irish horse trainer.

They were in the game for the fun of it, they made hay while their peers were too busy been dishonest sending out unfit horses.
The Bowes horses were always fit as fiddles everytime they ran, I remember another of the Bowe's horses Florida Coast finishing placed behind its better class stablemate Solerina on numerous occasions even their 2nd strings were fit to run for their lives.

But some would have you believe training horses is something akin to neurobiology or rocket science?.
Report Allduckornodinner February 17, 2012 4:12 PM GMT
Mincer for the prospective mares sake it's better off that your not involved in breeding so! Theres fella's out there that would kneel down before you to take fillies off them and a lease to race is the best most can hope for as what they'd make if they sold them outright isn't worth talking about. I believe that there will be a major shortfall in mares going to stud in the next few years too (it has already begun to a noticable extent) and a winning mare will become a useful commodity. If other people are willing to pay the training fee's then it would be foolish not to take these opportunites and you never know what might happen. I'm not surprised in the least to hear that theres interest in the RP advert.

Limestone Lad was an absolute cracking horse alright and provided the Bowes some great days as did Solerina and Sweet Kiln.

Silver if it's as simple as you think then why don't you take out a licence? Theres plenty of vacant stables otut here to be rented at reasonable cost. With all the trainers running dead ones there must be easy pickings there to be had for a fella like you that would have them ready for their life on every start.
Report silvergreaser February 17, 2012 4:47 PM GMT
I wouldn't be able to stomach working under HRI and the Turd Club duck, I like my regulators to have integrity too!.
Report punchestown February 17, 2012 5:13 PM GMT
Solerina's last run.

Jockey on the runner up wasn't going to get done for over use Laugh
Report silvergreaser February 17, 2012 5:27 PM GMT
Curiosity got the better of me punchestown, I remember that race now, the jockey on the 2nd almost got a fright to find himself so close to his stablemate, whether he would have won or not is very debatable? he certainly hung fire for a few strides between the last two.
But as I said they were always fit as fiddles, and remained remarkably consistent throughout what often were long hard seasons.
Report punchestown February 17, 2012 5:31 PM GMT
Yep Silver,the winner was 1/6 so they all lived happily ever after.
Report mincer11 February 17, 2012 10:30 PM GMT
There really are some gullible people on this forum,for a 10% share in a mare that barring the breeder is a complete and utter tool can't be any use,the charge is a princely 2300 for a year in which you have no say at all in the running of the mare.Is there a trainer in the whole world that would charge that amount to train an animal,23000 for the year,after all its only in training for half the year or so.Two things about this leasing lark,do they really think that a breeder will not know whether a 5yo mare is going to be any good or not, and finally how is it so expensive
Report paddywhacker1970 February 17, 2012 11:05 PM GMT
1.01 that mincer11 has never bred or owned a horse. Sideline expert.
Report wildmanfromborneo February 17, 2012 11:53 PM GMT
Paddywhacker is really trying to tell us he is a horse breeder and horse owner.I would not like to be around when one of his mares would be foaling you would not be able to get into the stable with reference books and computers,his staff would be terrified no initiative allowed,they would be better off giving the bould Paddy a bottle of the hard stuff and let nature take its course.
You don`t have to own or breed horses to know anything about the subject,i have never been to Australia but i know its there.
Report Rocketfingers February 18, 2012 12:19 AM GMT
You're Punctuation & grammar has improved wildman Laugh

Right Wildman this may shock you so sit down, there are a number of us owners that come on here and talk, Mincer seems to know exactly what he's on about, he seems to be a top bloke as well. Please respect us Wildman or i won't let any more crumbs fall from the master's table for you. Laugh

Now i am off to recite some Yeats !
Report paddywhacker1970 February 18, 2012 9:02 AM GMT
I am not trying to tell you anything and, once again, you are wrong with your assumptions, but it is clear from what mincer11 is saying that he has very little knowledge of the subject matter. I'm surprised the two of you don't get on better. Both of you like to preach with certainty on subjects you evidently know very little about. I am going to exit this thread now, so bait me away with your next post, as life is way, way too short to be getting involved in petty squabbles on an internet forum.
Report mincer11 February 18, 2012 9:15 AM GMT
Paddywhacker,you are correct in your assertion that i have never bred a horse,and due to financial restraints have never owned or am likely to own a racehorse.Saying that i do know people who have and still have horses and i am roughly aware of the costs involved.The people i am referring to have horses with some of the top trainers in the land and i know for certain that they arent being charged 23k a year to keep one in training.People say that Gigginstown have a built in rate with all their trainers,its rumoured to be 1200 a month all in.Now i cannot categorically state that this is completely factual but i believe that there is more than an element of truth in it.So on these figures we will try and work out the cost of keeping a horse like Quito De La Roque with Mr Colm Murphy.Give it that it is in training about 8 months @ 1200 =9600 plus 4 months at home at 200 a month(that figure is possibly too big),thats a total annual cost of 10,400.The saddlers hall mare starts to look a touch expensive now when you put those figures in to play.A big discrepancy obviously exists,saying that BI will as usual have a reasoned explanation.No doubt he will be able to tell us why a mare in Colm Murphys costs more than your average Formula 1 car to maintain for a year.I like BI's comment when he said they make sure that they are very careful with the syndicate members money,not half as careful as he is with his own i'd say.
Report by purpose February 18, 2012 11:09 AM GMT
Thought he might be only taking a standing count mincer but it seems you have delivered a knockout punch.
Report silvergreaser February 18, 2012 7:31 PM GMT
Can I say something mincer, are you surmising?

Do you know anybody involved with the novises syndicate?

Would BI come even close to a person as possessed as Tony McCoy?.. Tony McCoy is not a very nice person.
Work it out!
Report silvergreaser February 19, 2012 12:27 AM GMT
4 flights of stairs to a basement flat?

Do I really scare you that much?, or do u send each other private messages to ignore the guy with an opinion?
Report silvergreaser February 19, 2012 12:48 AM GMT
Rubi Light, Sprinter Sacre go for the champion chase, its a penalty kick, all you have to beat is a weetabix full sizing europe, most over rated hores in training.
Report irish_guy_13 February 19, 2012 12:49 AM GMT
mincer, you are forgetting about the running costs, it costs a tidy little sum to run a horse. travelling, groom, diesel, entry costs, jockeys fee, etc  it all adds up. a horse could run 5-6 times a year.( day trips to certain gallops are not cheap either like duninga etc).  if horse needs to be insured add 10 % of value the horse per year. And thats if the horse stays sound, if you need vets, you need very deep pockets i'm afraid.

One vet practice on the curragh is pay on the day, No cheques, credit card /cash or horse wont be leaving their yard.
Report BI February 19, 2012 1:11 AM GMT
Mincer, you have some axe to bury but it won't be in my figures. All costs are actual costs but for the purposes of BUDGETING we assume all registration costs, insurance, veterinary, training fees for 9 months in training, 3 months out of training, 6 runs, my management fee and a healthy contingency which comes to €23k per annum. I have never spent this budgeted amount for any of our horses in any year and thus that money remains in the syndicate. I know it might be hard for you to believe, but other than my clearly defined management fee, I get nothing else out of it. Members benefit from paying the actual costs, and not fancy all-in fees where the only person that benefits is the syndicate manager.
Report silvergreaser February 19, 2012 1:11 AM GMT
whats the sense in stealing without the grace to be here!
Report BI February 19, 2012 1:38 AM GMT
Mincer, it is also worth noting that Willie Mullins' new syndicate operation is charging €26k a year. Unlike us, there is no potential to receive any of that back as it is not done on a cost basis but an all-in basis.
Report The Gotchee February 19, 2012 11:19 AM GMT
2 pts win Medical Card 4.30
Report The Gotchee February 19, 2012 11:19 AM GMT
^ wrong ThreadWhoops
Report punchestown February 19, 2012 11:48 AM GMT
Again GotcheeLaugh
Report vinnie_roe February 19, 2012 2:05 PM GMT
The horse is only 50/50 to run at cheltenham, according to colm.
Report mincer11 February 20, 2012 1:53 PM GMT
BI,the two things that would worry most casual obsevers are the management fee that you are charging,and the healthy contingency fee that you speak of.You have been going on about you take a 10% share in every animal,well that wouldnt be too hard seeing that you are charging a management fee for every horse as well.This syndicate is as i suspected a load of old tosh.You run the syndicate as you see fit,the other 9 clowns you get involved pay the piper but the only non contributor calls the tune.You get to be able to ring Murphy about certain matters(not that would be of any benefit to you)but you see it as an added bonus.Finally just because Willie Mullins has a syndicate that is even more expensive is hardly much of a defence,my attitude would be if im going to get a dart in the anal passage,i may as well get it from Mullins and pay the extra 300 a man,he is after all a far superior trainer.
Report BI February 20, 2012 5:33 PM GMT
It's a challenge when you have to explain the nature of a contingency to someone. And the surprise when they hear that if we don't spend it then members get it back. It's hard to believe, isn't it. It's a bit too honest. Providing invoices and bank statements to members. A bit too transparent isn't it. Maybe I should hide behind an expensive all-in fee? That way I get to keep all the dosh when the horse is out of work, don't have to declare a management fee and don't need to keep transparent books and records. In fact, I could just hide behind the "you never have to pay a penny more" banner and you would probably be happier. But that's not my style.
Report wildmanfromborneo February 20, 2012 5:40 PM GMT
I am disappointed that you get any fee as you don`t deserve one and coming on here touting for business is wrong.You got no fee in your Brave Inca days and this fee business smacks of Classic Thoroughbreds a shameful period in the history of Ballydoyle.
Report BI February 20, 2012 6:02 PM GMT
I didn't come on here touting for business. In fact, I didn't mention anything about the syndicates. It was brought up by others and I am simply defending myself against those that know nothing about me or my syndicates and go around suggesting its some sort of a con. All my members come to my syndicates with their eyes wide open. I clearly state what I get. It is clearly in the syndicate agreement and in the financial statements. If you don't like it, I'm not putting a gun to your head and telling you to join. Its a free choice.

I wouldn't have expected to get a fee in the Brave Inca days and no-one did. It was two families that knew each other coming together. 90% of my members are not known to me when they come looking to join. They don't seem to have a problem paying the management fee. The main syndicate operations in the Irish market all charge management fees, built into their all-in fee. Do you think Willie Mullins charges €26k a year to train and race a horse?
Report mincer11 February 20, 2012 6:02 PM GMT
I too am dissapointed about the management fee,alot of people have one or 2 horses,they dont see the need to pay somebody to manage them.Its quite clearly a free run at trying to own horses and get a few suckers to pay for them.When a horse goes into training it would be up to the trainer to look after every aspect of that horses career.At the end of the day you will profit from each horse syndicated and you are also holding the reins when it comes to decision making.
Report wildmanfromborneo February 20, 2012 6:12 PM GMT
BI you most definitely did tout for business,you said you were going to the sales and asked for forumites to join,i nominated the skulking Allduckornodinner as your most likely patsy.
Report BI February 20, 2012 6:13 PM GMT
Mincer, you'd be incorrect that I hold the reins when it comes to decision making. It's a democratic process. I provide guidance. For example, one of our horses had a choice of races last year. I put it to a vote. I provided guidance to go for race A. The majority of members voted for race B. We went for race B.
Report BI February 20, 2012 6:26 PM GMT
Wildman, you're right. I remember the tongue in cheek PS. It had passed until Mincer started burying an axe.
Report mitch leary February 20, 2012 6:45 PM GMT
i think you should leave the decision on where the horse runs to the trainer, in fairness.
Report mincer11 February 20, 2012 7:09 PM GMT
Exactly mitch,the same way they should have let Tony McCoy ride Brave Inca as he saw fit.As i said from the start its a clear case of too many experts,too many know it alls as the champion jockey intimated.For a man that is so forthcoming in his praise of Colm Murphy its a bit surprising that you dont put enough of faith in him to be able to do such a basic function as choose a race for a horse.
Report The Gotchee February 20, 2012 8:07 PM GMT
As a matter of interest, how much is the management fee for looking after the interest of a dozen syndicate members?
Report mincer11 February 20, 2012 9:11 PM GMT
That's a good question and one any potential syndicate member would like to know the answer to
Report Prospero February 20, 2012 10:02 PM GMT
Interesting comment about allowing trainers decide race targets.
If I had a horse in training, I would be making the decisions about where it was running. What is the point in owning it otherwise? Many trainers have no clue about placing horses and the idea that they are the oracle about where a horse should run is laughable.
Report The Gotchee February 20, 2012 10:05 PM GMT
I just had a look at the website and if I have read it correctly, the management fee is €500 per share per year. Added to that there is  2.5%(management)  and 10%(trainer) commission on any profit made from the sale of the horse above it's original purchase price.  Maybe this could be clarified.
Report silvergreaser February 20, 2012 10:08 PM GMT
But prospero the likes of Willie" if, but, maybe" Mullins are given god like status, all he's doing is training very expensive horses that can't help but win races.
Question what ever happened to the once renowned Irish bred national hunt horse?, seems both sides of the Irish sea have realised that the french are better?, well Willie Mullins and his owners seem to think so anyway?.
Report Prospero February 20, 2012 10:13 PM GMT
In fairness, I would find it very hard to knock Willie Mullins placing of horses. Record speaks for itself and I certainly wasn't speaking about him. I think he has his status well-earned.
His record of vagueness with the media re: targets is a different story especially as he is happy to take the Racing Post shilling every week.
Report silvergreaser February 20, 2012 10:27 PM GMT
Prospero he's a good trainer I'm not disputing that, but if you have the backing of very expensive horses its going to exaggerate your prowess.
Is it man or horse?, slow horses still remain slow horses, you can't win races with slow horses, many a capable trainer went to the wall because circumstances railed against him, on another day he could have been an "if but maybe" and trained winners galore.

The right place at the right time, if Silver Birch had fell early in that famous grand national where would Gordon be now?.
Report Allduckornodinner February 20, 2012 11:09 PM GMT
And if my aunt had a sack then she'd be my uncle silver. It's a bit pointless asking hypothetical questions such as that because he is where he is now. Anyway it was two years after he won the National before he got a Giggy horse. He built his reputation placing bad horses that other people couldn't win with.

You can't put anything into horses but theres plenty that can't get the best out of them. It's true that good horses make trainers but an even truer statement is that bad trainers break good horses. Forgetting the six figure horses that Mullins has he has also won a Grade One with a horse beaten off marks in the low 100's for his previous trainer. He also landed a Troytown with a horse who was also similarly exposed for his previous trainer and won an Ebor plus a series of other good races with a mare that wasn't the size of a flapper.  These are just a recent sample of his exploits. The man is a genius and to argue otherwise is plain wrong.
Report BI February 20, 2012 11:16 PM GMT
The Gotchee, that is correct. The only difference between myself and any of the other syndicate operators in Ireland is that I declare my interests. I could just say its €200 a month all in for 10% (which would be 20% cheaper than Willie Mullins). But that's not the way I work. I'm not going to charge you €200 a month when your horse is in a field costing buttons to keep. Or €200 a month when the horse is injured for three months. You pay cost. Its a decision I made at the outset. Absolute transparency. And in order to show you where your money goes, I detail all the costs, including my fees. I have over 30 syndicate members and all joined knowing the fee structure. That's their choice, just like anyone else can say "no thanks".

I would also suggest that the only way most of my syndicate members would ever own a horse is by joining one of the three or four syndicate operators. Thus, we all provide a valuable service to those that couldn't get involved otherwise. It is not cheap advertising for new members. It is not cheap to host a website. Phoning 30 members regularly costs money. If you think my fees are high, you should see what one of the other syndicate operators charges. He doesn't even advertise his all-in rate!!
Report silvergreaser February 20, 2012 11:16 PM GMT
duck you're been hypothetical too, because it will always remain conjecture.

How do you train a horse?, get it conditioned and then get it fit?.

whoops, rocket science, but a bad rocket will explode or a bad horse will still go slow but a good horse might just bring you places?
Report ballaman68 February 20, 2012 11:30 PM GMT
As a member of one of BI winning ways syndicates im amazed at the vitriol that is thrown in his direction. I never met BI prior to the syndicate and went in with my eyes wide open, in fact it was the whole openness and transparancy of the operation that attracted me to the syndicate.

yes theres a mgmt fee, clearly identified in the schedule of charges and im happy enough with that.If you think that BI pulls the strings in our syndicate then you are sadly wrong, we are a mixed bunch of owners, some with clear ideas of waht they want some that are happy to tag along.

we pay our fees every six months in our case we had a couple of wins and therefore didnt have to fill the kitty for a while. its as simple as that . we all pay our fees, BI does a set of accounts every year and its all backed up with invoices. if at the end of the day there is money left in the kitty it will be split evenly between us all.

As a newbie owner i found the whole set up great, you know what the fees and charge are and can plan accordingly. As a business man for over 20 years im well aware of value for money and imho im getting it here.

no one is forcing anyone into these syndicates, im in one and have just gone into a second one (one of the famous mare leases) and im very happy to do so.

weve been lucky with our first horse and to say that it has been a great experience is an understatement.

If its not for you mincer then thats fine, ive learned alot over the last two years and enjoyed and think that ive got value for money, so much so that ive gone in again as have a number of the first syndicate.
Report Allduckornodinner February 20, 2012 11:34 PM GMT
Silver it's very easy for you to say that it's easy because you've never had to do it. It's the same as any fella that knocks trainers or knocks horses when they've never had anything to do with them. They are very brittle creatures. Something like 80 or 90% of foals born never even see the track. For most trainers things go wrong a lot more than they go right.

You can belittle it all you want because it's all the one to you. You'll never have to worry about having everything riding on one horse doing the business to keep the whole thing afloat. It's easy to dismiss it then. Anyone will train winners if they are getting the numbers through the door and have the horses out doing a bit every day. Thats just the numbers game. However thats a luxury that most trainers don't have and this is where the skill comes into it. You'll probably never have an appreciation for the art of training a horse because you haven't spent any time in yards and seen how it's done and what it takes to try and make the game pay.
Report irish_guy_13 February 20, 2012 11:38 PM GMT
seemingly all duck, only 1 out of 8 foals born make it to the track, and  then of those horses that make it to the track, only another 1 out of 8 win a race!
Report Allduckornodinner February 20, 2012 11:43 PM GMT
Yeah sounds about right Irish Guy. The ratios would have been a lot worse during the boom years. While more horses would have made it to the track i'd say that at least 22 of the runners that used turn up for the 30 runner maiden hurdles in Navan and Naas were stone cold useless and there'd b a few more that might win if they landed on the right race but would be limited in the extreme all the same.
Report silvergreaser February 20, 2012 11:53 PM GMT
I'm belittling the big guys duck because I don't think they're that much better than the lttle guys, the little guy struggles waiting for that one horse that might just change his life.

The big guy most of time inherited their success.

I worked for a small period as a teenager in a stud farm, but a lot of my friends around newbridge spent a whopping amount of their lives working on the horses and some are still working for a wage barely worth getting out of bed for.

I have the utmost respect for those people, nicer guys you'd never meet, working class heroes and thats not been condescending!.
Report Allduckornodinner February 21, 2012 12:08 AM GMT
That's life sure silver. No point in holding a mans success against him. I'm sure they are all nice fella's same as most people that work long hours in yards for little enough reward. However thats there choice. Your never going to get ahead by not taking a chance and while theres undoubtedly a lot of people handed success theres many more that make it through hard graft. Look at the subject of this thread. Came from a humble enough background racing wise and had to build it all up. Similiar story for most trainers. Willie Mullins went a long time without the support of his major current owners too and always had Grade One performers. He took Florida Pearl the whole was from bumpers to nearly winning a Gold Cup. That's not an easy thing to do.

The truth is that most people are destined to do not much more than eke out a living and i'm more than happy with that. Keeps you hungry and makes you work harder!
Report silvergreaser February 21, 2012 12:18 AM GMT
Brings us back to what I was saying duck, John Oxx and Dermot only appear once in the blue moon, the odd time they have a horse that can compete against the coolmore juggernaut.

STS was a once in a lifetime horse, but we've barely heard a word from John since?

Maybe its because he hasn't got one?.

Aiden is guaranteed and the media will hype him to the high heavens.
Report Allduckornodinner February 21, 2012 12:25 AM GMT
Obviously AOB gets some of the most choicest bred horses in the world but they still need to be trained. He gets the very best out of his horses and is probably the best trainer Ireland. I think it's important not to understate how brilliant a horseman he is. Before he had any of what he has now he was winning jump races with mares that weren't the height of a stool.

It's a commercial operation and the hype machine is a necessary function of it. I personally have no issue with this and  don't see why anyone else should either. It's a business and is operated as such. It would be remiss of them not to publicise their success and promote the brand.
Report silvergreaser February 21, 2012 12:33 AM GMT
But John Oxx would do the same job if he was given the coolmore job?

we can dress it up all we want, if Aiden was training muck he'll still be training muck, he inherted a Crowley operation that was already very successful and then copied something Martin Pipe had perfected years before, its not as if Aiden was a revolutionary?, he was just a simple copycat!
Report Allduckornodinner February 21, 2012 12:43 AM GMT
John Oxx and AOB are different types of trainers and they generally train different types of horses (e.g. Considerable differences between the Aga Khan breds and the Sadlers Wells line horses) so they are hard to compare. I don't think training the numbers that AOB has would suit Oxx nor would the pressure to make them 2yo's.

In my view if AOB started off back in Wexford with a dozen horses again he would be a top jumps trainer in five or six years. As for him being a copycat anyone that whose view holds water in racing will tell you how much of a genius he is. Again for it comes back to you not having an appreciaton for what the job entails silver but we'll agree to disagree.
Report silvergreaser February 21, 2012 12:51 AM GMT
Aiden O'Brien is a good trainer, as I've said before I don't dispute this fact, but I don't believe he's the second coming of jesus christ, he is afterall a horse trainer and I think most trainers train horses the same way?

Condition and fitness duck?, its not that hard, and if you've Magnier. Smyth and Tabor behind you the media will suck your balls!
Report silvergreaser February 21, 2012 1:10 AM GMT
Anyway duck nice arguing or disagreeing, but it was all done with courtesy.
We might disagree but like everyone we all have opinions, and of course I think I'm right? until proven otherwise?.

As Morrissey says this is the last song I'll ever sing and the crowd go into raptures,

Goodnight and thank you!
Report wildmanfromborneo February 21, 2012 10:48 AM GMT
Aiden O`Brien is the greatest trainer around an absolute genius.
I never knew there were so many mugs around,BIs fees are ridiculous and he seems to have a lot in common with Thommo,a fraud who is regularly exposed on the racing forum.I must be naive as i never thought anyone would be stupid enough to subscribe to tipping sites after all Catchmeifyoucan and Ilikewavingatbuses do it for nothing here.
Report paddywhacker1970 February 21, 2012 10:56 AM GMT
You are calling BI a fraud? What do you base that on? From what I can see, he is the exact opposite, someone that is willing to put all the accounts out there for the customer to see. If they are happy, they stay with him, if they are not, they leave. He can't be anymore transparent than that. And you call him a fraud? Disgraceful comment, IMO, but what more would any expect from a dog only a bark.
Report wildmanfromborneo February 21, 2012 11:03 AM GMT
I called Thommo a fraud you didn`t consult your reference books closely enough but sorry i shocked you,you are probably a subscriber to his tipping line so you should know my comment is accurate.
Report wildmanfromborneo February 21, 2012 11:21 AM GMT
Pddywhacker i realise you are a careful and conservative man but this checking up of every thing is going too far,try a natural conversation you might enjoy it.
Report Catch Me ifyoucan February 21, 2012 1:27 PM GMT
tipping sites after all Catchmeifyoucan and Ilikewavingatbuses do it for nothing here.

Turf Talk Racing Tips is now closed. After 3 successful years the decision has been taken to cease providing tips. Due to other business commitments and lack of time it has been decided to close the tipping service down. The website will remain open and there may be the occasional free horse racing tip provided via our Twitter Page. Many thanks for all your support.
Report yourlack March 19, 2012 10:41 AM GMT
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