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05 Feb 12 12:26
Date Joined: 22 Jan 10
| Topic/replies: 2,601 | Blogger: lustrumm's blog
Surprised there was no thread on this and no coverage at all in the Racing post.

Surely this will not be left to pass without a boycott or two after all that has gone for the last 5 years or so
Pause Switch to Standard View Is the Pitch War at Dundalk at an end?
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Report never give up February 5, 2012 6:26 PM GMT
will other bookmakers stop laying off with them now ?
Report acertaintybeat February 5, 2012 8:03 PM GMT
Heard today at the races that the court case is near completion or to that effect, didnt hear what the outcome would be though. I'm sure BOH wasnt impressed when they set up beside him last Fri, who did they buy there?
Report never give up February 5, 2012 8:20 PM GMT
they bought  a pitch at the start,so that was alaways there pitch but never worked it til now
Report never give up February 5, 2012 8:20 PM GMT
Report wildmanfromborneo February 5, 2012 8:46 PM GMT
Never Give Up appears to be a bookmaker,it figures.
Report lustrumm February 5, 2012 8:49 PM GMT
To answer the question for those that are now or don't remember Dundalk chose to ignore the old seniority rule at the new track and to sell new pitches with the Executive keeping the money. Laddies bought one of those.
BOH had a pitch at the old track so although breaking ranks was entitled at some level to operate there. He also had the Betting shop at the old track.
Report joevalue147 February 5, 2012 8:59 PM GMT
Lustrumm must be a bookmaker.
Report never give up February 5, 2012 8:59 PM GMT

Feb 5, 2012 -- 2:03PM, acertaintybeat wrote:

Heard today at the races that the court case is near completion or to that effect, didnt hear what the outcome would be though. I'm sure BOH wasnt impressed when they set up beside him last Fri, who did they buy there?

wont affect any off the books working there as laddies are only there to shorten prices

Report acertaintybeat February 5, 2012 9:03 PM GMT
They dont need a pitch there to shorten horses they send a rep to all the meetings!
Report lustrumm February 5, 2012 9:30 PM GMT
used to make a book joe but that was over 10 years ago. Just an interested observer now and to be honest I have kind of half lost touch with the Dundalk situation. Reading the link I posted above reminded me of it. It may not even be an issue any more (different times now) but I remember going racing there at the start and getting abused going past the picket. I never once had a bet off a bookie there though.

On balance I would be with the track on this one but the old pitches were worth some compensation and perhaps the old seniority should have had the option to buy the new pitches and then be able to sell to the big firms if they wanted in. That might have worked.

Its a shame they made a mess of what is a good product and I wonder if the ring will ever have worth now. I certainly would want the likes of Darragh Fitzpatrick manipulating prices as his firm do at the AW tracks in the UK. That is the danger now
Report joevalue147 February 5, 2012 9:38 PM GMT
You say you certainly WOULD want Darragh Fitz manipulating prices so you must be happy out then???
Report never give up February 5, 2012 9:54 PM GMT
typo imho
Report lustrumm February 5, 2012 10:33 PM GMT
sorry typo and just to reply to an earlier post re Laddies already hedging at the track. Big diff. between walking around on the ground having bets and standing up on a joint. At least the people who have boycotted the place for 5 years now think so anyway.
Report tom40 February 6, 2012 12:10 PM GMT
not aware of what all the disputes are about but i was there on 11 nov (first time since sept 09) and observed the following

-there were only 6 layers in the ring
-there were hardly any punters betting.. a few fivers and tenners thats it
-i had an iphone with betfair and observed that the layers matched betfair on the first 2 regardless of whether they layed or not and were then totally out of the market on the rest(10/1 on hrses trading 23 on bf etc etc..).. no doubt about it the market was 100% determined by off course betting

-why would any punter go to the ring if he had access to bf?
-how could any layer make a profit?
-whats the point? return an sp?-could an sp not be returned based on online prices offered by the major layers?

as i live abroad and only go racing onle a year or so i am no espert on the subject but recent on course experiences have been saddening..even at big meetings the ring excitement i rembeber for years back is long gone
at punchestown last april i witnessed from the stands before the off prices shortening from 9/2 to 3/1 without a penny being layed in the ring (i was watching from the stands)..manipulation of sp? high volume of off course money?
Report yummy February 6, 2012 12:15 PM GMT
Might be harder now for Ladbrokes to manipulate other rings after this move. Having said that they will probably load it on here and shorten it that way.
  The INBA have taken a stance on this issue for the last five years and I don't see them entertaining Ladbrokes business on course in the future.
Report Anaglogs Daughter February 6, 2012 12:20 PM GMT
lustrumm     05 Feb 12 12:26 
Surprised there was no thread on this and no coverage at all in the Racing post.

To be fair to whoever posted it it was mentioned on the Dundalk thread friday night on the horse racing forum
Report mrcombustible February 6, 2012 12:45 PM GMT
Does local bookie Frank Finnegan stand at Dundalk?

I used love the old Dundalk, especially the Maytime Festival meeting on a Friday and a Saturday, the McArdle cup Chase and the Sweet Afton hunter chase, that was in the 70s and you would have about 40 bookmakers standing
Report never give up February 6, 2012 4:36 PM GMT
no frank doesnt work there
Report Ballhopper February 6, 2012 4:45 PM GMT
Don't think seniority had much to do with it to be honest. Wasn't there a "four grand" hello fee or something? It's all a long time ago now. Often heard it said that some bookies regretted the stance being taken and would have paid the four grand,and they thought the dispute would all be sorted out quickly enough.
Report ReimerpYsatnaf February 6, 2012 4:49 PM GMT
NGU does Frank not stand in Dundalk at all anymore? Last time i was up there for for the International
Report never give up February 6, 2012 4:51 PM GMT
dont know about the dogs pf but he doesnt work the horses there
Report ReimerpYsatnaf February 6, 2012 4:54 PM GMT
Report GANT007 February 6, 2012 8:24 PM GMT
PF.......International night is different as the bookies from the horseracing earlier that day stay on to take bets........only ever 2 or 3 bookies at the normal dog meetings and they are inside in the bar area.
Report steinbeck February 6, 2012 9:11 PM GMT
BALLHOPPER,seniority had everything to do with it,and it was "EIGHT GRAND" for the hello fee,and all bookmakers who are members of the I.N.B.A.that held a SENIORITY in DUNDALK did not regret the stance they took,and would not and did not pay  the "eight grand"and they did not think the dispute would be sorted out quickly.Their is legal proceedings on going and it will be for the judge to decide.Its a crying shame that this state of the art stadium with its top class facilities(except a proper betting market) that was partially funded with tax payers money via H.R.I.,who also broke rules by granting betting permits to certain bookmakers on the day of the opening is left in the state it is, been run for HIGH STREET BOOKMAKERS to rip off the same tax payers with carved up betting shows and manipulated S.P.s.FRANK FINNEGAN goes some nights and works with Jim McGivern.
Report mincer11 February 6, 2012 9:59 PM GMT
Steinbeck you seem well versed on this subject.There are a few things I cannot figure about this situation though.The racetrack was being built for years so why was the need to leave it until it was about to open to sort out the matter.The old racetrack was closed for in around 10 years so how did the bookmakers think that there old seniorities should be recognised.It was after all a completely new racecourse,an AW one in fact.If the Phoenix Park was to reopen tomorrow would the bookmakers that held seniorities there be entitled to slot in as if nothing ever happened,surely not.Lastly whatever sympathy that the Dundalk bookies may have garnered would have been obliterated by the stance they took in instructing their members not to do business with people who bet in Dundalk .Anybody who didn't comply was put on a list as a person who was to be blackballed along with the Dundalk dozen.They also wasted thousands on a needless legal action which hasn't a hope of ever being successful .All in all the INBA didn't cover themselves in glory in this sorry episode
Report steinbeck February 7, 2012 10:52 AM GMT
Mincer the Phoenix Park was closed for few years and then reopened with new owners (i.e. magnier and co),then closed again and sold for building,the previous bookmakers seniorities stood then,and if horse racing returned to the park them same seniorities would still be recognised.Another example is Limerick racecourse closing and building a new racecourse near Patrickswell the old seniorities transferred to the new venue.Their is pitch rules and regulations in place with H.R.I.and A.I.R.and the safe guard the seniorities at all racecourses.Regarding Dundalk their was already an existing seniority list and the new management chose not to recognise it with the help of H.R.I.who had a vested interested, at the last minute trying to strangle more money out of on course bookmakers.On course bookmakers bought and sold seniorities at the old Dundalk and paid registration fees to the racecourse and contributed plenty in pitch fees over the years,yet when the racecourse was closed they got no compensation.The same as TRALEE racecourse was closed as a deal had been done to sell the racecourse for 10 million by the share holders,which has since falling through, the on course bookmakers would not of got recompensed,the only thing on course bookmakers can hope for is tralee to reopen sometime in the future with the existing seniority list.As regarding your blackballing remark, i would not think the I.N.B.A.would instruct its members to take such action,as the bookmakers who bet in Dundalk are members of the I.N.B.A.,i think it was an individual decision by bookmakers who held a seniority at the racecourse and felt he had been robbed of his pitch by the Dundalk dozen as you so call them.
Report mincer11 February 7, 2012 11:53 AM GMT
Thank you for your reply steinbeck.You seem to be taking the bookies side in this argument which is fair enough if that is where your loyalties lie.Seriously though in this day and age do you honestly think that if Phoenix Park were to reopen then the people who were doing it would want to recognise a seniority list that is more than 25 years out of date.Are bookmakers that naieve to think that people would want to leave in 50 bookmakers for nothing to bet at a spanking new racecourse.Likewise Tralee would be the same,if it ever were to reopen then the consortium that were doing so would hardly want to recognise dated betting lists and not want to profit from new pitch allocations.The situation in Limerick came about because the INBA bluffed the executive at Patrickswell and managed to move the seniorities en block from Greenmount to Patrickswell.Had the pitches been auctioned at the time which they should have been then the racecourse which was, and still is ,being mismanaged would have got at least a seven figure sum for the track.Instead the clowns let all the bookies in for about £400 a head.Somebody who could count to ten wouldnt have made that decision but thats what Patrickswell did all the same.The INBA expected the Dundalk executive to fall for the same trick but sadly for them Martin wasnt as foolish as his Patrickswell counterpart,hence the stand off which they have now lost miserably.Lastly members of the INBA committee most certainly did instruct all their members that they were not to do business with anybody who bet in Dundalk and were left in no doubt to what was going to be the outcome should they choose not to comply.Should the Phoenix Park reopen by the way its going to take Terry Rogers a while to get used to the new computer system wont it.
Report yummy February 7, 2012 12:39 PM GMT

take this scenario

A man works in a job. The company closes down lets everyone go redundancy... reopens and hires new employees

Is it any different to the bookies at Dundalk who actually paid for their seniorities (their job) and would also have to pay a registration fee for their seniorities to the race course via the HRI
Report Kelly February 7, 2012 1:51 PM GMT
Remember that , Mrcombustible .  Those were the days .

From what I have observed , the book percentages at Dundalk are by the bookies , for the bookies .
Report mincer11 February 7, 2012 2:57 PM GMT
Take this scenario yummy,a business closes down for 10 years or in the case of the phoenix park maybe 25.Somebody comes in to try and get a business going and finds there are 50 employees out the front picketing because they havent got their jobs back.You cannot be serious surely,the people that were trying to get Dundalk up and running couldnt have cared less about the bookmakers at the old racecourse.It was a completely new racecourse an AW one even,had nothing whatsoever to do with the old one.Were the old caterers kept on,parking staff etc,its fairly unlikely so why should bookies have a divine right to stroll in after 10 years as if nothing had changed.
Report robo February 7, 2012 3:06 PM GMT
its quite apparent, that mincer has some sort of dislike for the bookmaker profession may be you failed in this field mincer
Report yummy February 7, 2012 3:11 PM GMT

Landlord closes the shopping centre

Reopens and resells all the units after kicking out the existing tenants

no key money
Report yummy February 7, 2012 3:11 PM GMT

Landlord closes the shopping centre

Reopens and resells all the units after kicking out the existing tenants

no key money
Report yummy February 7, 2012 3:22 PM GMT
the bookie has paid

for his unit i.e the pitch

to register the leasehold with his landlord i.e pitch registration fee which goes to the racecourse

an annual rent whether he trades or  not  i.e  daily pitch fee which is set at at 5 times the multi

You say that the INBA have lost their case

Wasn't aware that it had reached that stage. Any link to where I can read more about that
Report yummy February 7, 2012 3:26 PM GMT
Caterers did not buy the kitchens from which they operated

If they had built and paid for the buildings from which thwy operated, in other words made a capital investment they too would have a divine right to look trade when the racecourse reopened
Report ambush February 7, 2012 5:06 PM GMT
right or wrong ,i know that of the two,the bookmakers are more anxious to have their day in court.i think it was more complicated than just having their old pitches back.the pitches were given out on permit numbers.thats why john kelly who as far  as im aware  didnt hold  a full permit(HE HAD ONE FOR PTOPS AND OUTSIDE ENCLOSURES
Report ambush February 7, 2012 5:14 PM GMT
sorry ,it only half sent. he bet outside in galway and bellewstown.he had the lowest number permit,so he became the number 1 bookie in the ring.someone will clarify if that is wrong.dont know if he bet at the old dundalk,so a man who worked maybe  8 days a year is no 1 bookie in the ring.good luck to him,
Report mincer11 February 7, 2012 5:25 PM GMT
The bookmakers are anxious to have a day in court is possibly correct ambush,these would be the same bookmakers who have put thousands and thousands into legal peoples pockets in a bid to get the right to ply their trade in pitches that are now worthless.This would be the same organisation who decided to make that unforgettably generous offer to the affected punters in that Listowel fiasco.Each punter was given 10 euro by the association on top of getting his stake back from HRI,a truly magnanimous gesture and the person who gave that the thumbs up should really take a bow.I know of somebody who had a pitch in Tralee and he's hoping they will build houses on it and maybe the builder will be so kind as to give him a nice 3 bedroom detached as a small measure of compensation for his immeasurable loss.Yummy your example of the landlord isnt applicable here,these premises were closed for 10 years and more and there were seperate entities involved.
Report ambush February 7, 2012 5:39 PM GMT
i think at this stage it will be readies that the affected bookies will be after.reading the bookmakers return figures in the form book for dundalk reads grim.dont think many will want their old pitches back if they were offered them.
Report soapp February 7, 2012 5:54 PM GMT
Mallow had a draw for their pitches when they closed for a few years in the 90's.

They didn't have to pay for them. It was just that the layout was a square rather than a straight line.
Report mincer11 February 7, 2012 6:07 PM GMT
Wasnt it the case soapp that Mallow was being done up,stands were being built etc and it was always the case that it was going to reopen when work was complete.Therefore the existing bookies had a better case for retaining their seniorities,but Tralee for example isnt being done up and were it to reinvent itself under an independent consortium then i would fear for any bookie that had a pitch there when it closed.Dundalk was closed for four or five years and it looked like it was never going to open again,until local involvement and investment got it up and running.If it was up to HRI solely,then it would never have reopened again,neither would it have opened if it was left up to the bookmakers association.There was a good few years in the planning and the building of this racecourse,more than enough time to resolve the matter involved,but the INBA decide to leave it until the last few weeks and by then it was too late.
Report neill d February 7, 2012 7:00 PM GMT
are the pitches valued any higher now than they would have been when the units were originally bought? Take say this new property tax, the idea is that people who built their houses 50 odd years ago and now avail of all of the services that have been built since, new roads, shops schools, these have all added value to their house, but they haven't paid any tax on this added value.

So now here in Dundalk, we have this new 'stadium', built with public money, does this mean the pitches are now worth more than when they were originally bought and wouldn't the bookies be availing of the new service that is the stadium. Now I realsie turnover is way down on course generally, but is this the way that the other side are coming at it, we built a stadium adding value to your pitches so pay?

Just thought there was an interesting parallel there, but I'm not saying it's the fairest approach, I just wondered was it a question that was raised.

Or is it automatic that as turnover is down, pitches are worth less, end off.

Report steinbeck February 7, 2012 11:39 PM GMT
MINCER,i have friends who,s families have been in on course bookmaking for 2 or 3 generations and the seniorities has and still is in the their family,thats the only interest i have,it fascinates me how the whole thing works.After futher probing i have learned that the head of the H.R.I.chanced his arm  to try and justify his fat salary has done a u turn and admitted they were wrong and that the pitch rules and regulations should have been adhered to at the time and they advised Dundalk wrongly,they have tried to distance them selfs from the whole debacle leaving Dundalk  to fight on their own. Dundalk now  maintain that they were not a member of the A.I.R.until after the opening night.All racecourses in Ireland with the exception of the 2 in the North(i would not be sure of) are members of the A.I.R.and are bound by rules and regulations that are set out between and agreed by H.R.I.,A.I.R.and the I.N.B.A.and no one body can alter or change them without consent of all three parties.These were the rules in place before Dundalk opened and has since been confirmed by all three parties.Should a similar situation arise in the future the seniorites will be recognised.For instance if the new place in Tipperary gets built,Thurles has said it will close and give its fixtures to them, the Thurles seniorities will be used to fill the betting ring.Regarding Limerick the same pitch rules and regulations were in place,why would the same pool of bookmakers bid on seniorities they already owned.Their was 100 seniorities at the time and each gave a contribution of €500 which i feel was a generous gesture.Speaking of clowns dundalk are left fighting a court case all alone with no H.R.I. or A.I.R. backing,could just turn into a costly exercise,as all the bookmakers can lose is their seniorities.As things transpired i dont think  many of the bookmakers involved would return to the track.(my opinion only).The I.N.B.A. did not instruct their members to not do business with the dundalk dozen as it would be ILLEGAL and would have left them open for legal action to be taken against them.Like i stated before it was an individual decision by each bookmaker.Terry Rogers nephew has his seniority from the phoenix park and he knows how to work the computer.You can also tell your friend who has a seniority at tralee that he wont be getting a 3 bedroomed house as the land is only zoned for commercial build.Their can only be one winner in the court case,and YES i would like to see my friends win.GOOD LUCK TO BOTH DUNDALK AND THE BOOKMAKERS IN THE COURT CASE.
Report acertaintybeat February 10, 2012 4:19 PM GMT
Will be any new bookies in Dundalk tonite?
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