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29 Nov 11 22:49
Date Joined: 01 Jul 10
| Topic/replies: 1,355 | Blogger: dj876's blog
It's obviously next to impossible to make money punting in bookies with overounds ranging from 107% to 160%(yest.).Imo it's very hard to make profit on here even with 100 % o/r(without first hand info) by just punting and laying .It's possible to make money arbing but u get your accounts closed quiclkly.In the last 10 years BF has turned the game on it's head with the biggest edge ever developed ie FAST PICS,so how come there is so little chat about it on irish forum??What tracks are renting out corporate rooms as exchange rooms??Who has been throwing out of a track with a laptop??Do the oncourse layers have the fast pic ir wrapped up??
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Report wildmanfromborneo December 1, 2011 10:58 PM GMT
No the tax is paid on your yearly profit,you are only deemed a professional when you make money.Gambling losses are looked on as recreation so you can`t claim it as an expense,the same rules apply to gambling as to stocks and shares.
Report Rowley Mile December 1, 2011 10:59 PM GMT
Anyway, it's kind of going on a tangent here, everyone will have to agree to disagree, i personally couldn't see how they could considering how many bets aren't transparent.
I suppose most businessmen have made their money through being tax efficient, we could start writing a book on that but it would take more than a lifetime.
Report squigs December 1, 2011 11:05 PM GMT
If you took bets and set the odds, you are operating a trade and would be subject to tax, this is why people should fear a tax of exchange layers.

UK and Ireland do not tax gambling winnings, the States tax professional winners thus causing a mix up.

Financial Spread Betting's main selling point is that it provides a cost effective alternative to share ownership, such speculation is considered the winnings of a bet and is both CGT and Income Tax exempt.
Report Rocketfingers December 1, 2011 11:07 PM GMT
I make it pay on football, Asian opens on a Tuesday for Ireland, maybe the Wednesday for the first div. Limits are healthy opening up at €477, then going up to €953 a little later on. On the day of the match they will keep increasing the closer you get to kick off. I make my own prices so i have an opinion of where a price should be i stay away from Over/Under bets i believe you need a model for these bets or you have to be extremely careful what you bet.

In Asia they don't ban you or limit you and you can hit something a few times actually before your perceived value is gone. So for example if you thought a bet was say a 5/6 shot and it opened up at 1.97 you may get to hit 3 times by the what ever the limit is before it hits the price you think it should be. I have a good mate that covers European basketball, and we swap info. limits on the day of the game for that are quite good but you must wait to the day of the game to get on or you'll destroy the market. I stay away from fixed games there are plenty of them and i don't cover a lot of leagues just a few.

I don't touch horses really except for a few bob now and again btw i like them and love going but for me i can't make them pay. I like NFL as well :) but find it difficult to handicap the games as the weeks go by.
Report Shotgun Willy December 1, 2011 11:13 PM GMT
i only punt on racing and much prefer NH.As a Jumps punter I think if you cant show a profit(some profit, however small) between 1st nov and end Feb each jump season you'd have to have a long think is it worth the time/effort. Certainly the only way to profit is to watch all replays and that takes time!!
Report wildmanfromborneo December 1, 2011 11:14 PM GMT
U.K. and Ireland charge income tax on your winnings if you are a professional,now you may evade it if you like as it could be hard to calculate,but they have recently demanded from some professional punters their exchange accounts.More and more the professionals are using agents,the Limerick man with the red colours,the small lad from Baltinglass and the big dog punter they charge an extra 1%.
Squigs you are talking about once off big wins such as a jackpot or a lottery win,no income is taxfree not even the stallion fees anymore.
Report Rocketfingers December 1, 2011 11:21 PM GMT
Wildclown you're boring people now, you're wrong let it go mate.
Report ko2 December 1, 2011 11:27 PM GMT
have to agree with rocketfingers , reckon your wrong wildman regarding income tax on winning. What are you on about with the extra 1pc
Report squigs December 1, 2011 11:38 PM GMT
You say the same thing again and again, and then name some people I have never heard of,

Financial Spread Betting is Tax and CGT free, Paddy Power openly advertise this on Paddy Power Trader.

For the purpose of Tax, profits from spread betting are considered as bets, this excludes them from tax. I have worked in large Firms that use these products to minimise their tax liability.

HMRC are insistent here that tax is not paid on gambling in the UK.

It is of course possibly subject to change, but betting winnings at this date are not taxable.
Report Rowley Mile December 1, 2011 11:41 PM GMT
Damp squib, was only ever going to end in mayhem this....
Report wildmanfromborneo December 1, 2011 11:42 PM GMT
If you have big turnover on here you pay 2% commission,the agents charge the professionals a 3% rate now the premium charge has led to some extra charges.One of the agents has found the information garnered from watching one professionals lays so good he is ignoring the premium charge.
Report wildmanfromborneo December 1, 2011 11:49 PM GMT
Squigs you know your stuff,advertise your services at the races because i can assure you three professional punters have paid income tax on their winnings.
Do you not think that J.P.McManus would be interested in this tax loophole for himself or his son.
Report ReimerpYsatnaf December 2, 2011 9:38 AM GMT
Some amazing statements on this thread. If you are a professional gambler you should not be claiming social welfare. When you claim social welfare you get put on jobseekers allowance or benefit (or something along those lines) unless you are sick and unable to work. The key is in the name, you are supposed to be actively seeking employment, if you are a professional gambler you are not seeking employment. You are therefore defrauding the social welfare system, you are defrauding the country and defrauding the taxpayers. You are no better than the knackers or foreigners who abuse the system.
Report Newmanix December 2, 2011 10:17 AM GMT
I changed my betting habits in September this year.  I was having one or two sports bets per week(Football,Tennis,Cricket,Rugby and Snooker).  I was breaking even, but some of the bets gave me sleepless nights(worrying and/or watching on tv at all hours).  My largest bet this year was on a Test Cricket match(€1300) and it won @ 15/8.  Now I have changed my approach completely, and I now enjoy betting differently.  I try and stick with Multiples for low stakes.  I will spend Wednesday and Thursday trying to pick 5 sports bets for the weekend, ranging from 1/1 - 7/2.  I will place 10 trebles and an accum.  This is profitable for me now.  I also do multiples on racing which is hit and miss, but I am not sorry to see the back of the big bets tbh.  I have also cancelled my Sky Tv as I was glued to SS News.  I listen to the radio now and read books and try and be creative at home, instead of ignoring visitors or family when there is a match on.  I find I have a lot more time to study form now without the telly, and I am able to make up my own mind without biased tv presenters.  Patience and disicpline = profit.
Report punchestown December 2, 2011 10:58 AM GMT
In the last 6 years or so I'm about evens here (don't use bookies),if you gave me back the commission paid I'd be ahead.

I stick almost entirely to Irish racing except for big meetings across the pond,I avoid Handicaps where possible and tend to stick to Novice Hurdles and Chases mostly as they're less exposed and you can normally pick out the few that are going to be trying.

Anyone for Simonsig today? Happy
Report chingachgook December 2, 2011 2:15 PM GMT
ReimerpYsatnaf Joined: 07 Jun 11
Replies: 5118 02 Dec 11 09:38   

Some amazing statements on this thread. If you are a professional gambler you should not be claiming social welfare. When you claim social welfare you get put on jobseekers allowance or benefit (or something along those lines) unless you are sick and unable to work. The key is in the name, you are supposed to be actively seeking employment, if you are a professional gambler you are not seeking employment. You are therefore defrauding the social welfare system, you are defrauding the country and defrauding the taxpayers. You are no better than the knackers or foreigners who abuse the system.

And the social welfare is means tested so if your a pro and in profit(couple of K even) and its in the bank they can cut you off the dole.
Report Tolmi December 2, 2011 2:25 PM GMT

Did they p
Report Tolmi December 2, 2011 2:27 PM GMT
Sorry pressed the wromg button...Can the so called professional punter reclaim income tax in a losing year??
Report robo December 2, 2011 5:29 PM GMT
I dont know anything whatsoever about income tax on gambling winnings,but one thing i can be certain of is that the wildman knows less.I can assure you that wildmans assurances arent very assuring.The man is a serial fantasist,does anybody seriously think that these so called pro punters are discussing their tax affairs with every Tom **** and Harry at the races,of course they are not.
On a sadder note my friend who was a bookies runner at the races told me lately that his services are no longer required on midweek days,just festivals and Sundays from now on.For a man with a young family it is a real blow.
Report Millionaire_Morse December 2, 2011 5:59 PM GMT
robo seething he might get his dole cut off if he says he's a pro. we all know he's a loser who lives with mammy. can't call yourself pro anymore robo son lol stay on that dole now.
Report ko2 December 7, 2011 3:02 PM GMT

see point 2 wildman
Report RoyalAcademy December 7, 2011 3:08 PM GMT
That eliminates capital gains tax ko2 but not income tax.

I have seen instances of Revenue taxing profits on the sale of racehorses although one would generally say they are tax exempt.

The Revenue's stance can depend on modus operandum, how the income is accumulated, trends,history etc so its not cut and dried.
Report wildmanfromborneo December 7, 2011 4:11 PM GMT
Squigs point is on once off wins.The professional i know was questioned on his income he told them straight that he won it gambling,they didn`t look at his bets they just worked out what he was spending and then told him his income and then taxed him accordingly.They later returned and asked him for his exchange accounts and taxed him again on these profits with penalty interest.
Report kavvie December 7, 2011 4:53 PM GMT
bigger fool to tell ridiculous
Report wildmanfromborneo December 7, 2011 5:06 PM GMT
Kavvie revenue have extensive powers its not optional.
Maybe Brian Cowan has got an amnesty for all Offaly taxpayers,pity he wouldn`t extend it over the border to North Tipperary.
Report kavvie December 7, 2011 6:26 PM GMT
so if i win 100k off pp i repeort it to the revenue and pay them 42%? sure all gambling winnings are not taxable.due to the fact that losses could also be written off against tax? opens a can of worms?
Report Kelly December 7, 2011 7:42 PM GMT
Any self respecting pro gambler with a decent annual income from gambling would ( or should ) have the nous to spend cash only and not to indulge in using cards , loyalty cards , credit cards , debit cards or anything which would be termed traceable . Given that scenario he / she would then be in a position to "declare " any profit he/ she though fit .

And keep the beaten dockets .
Report wildmanfromborneo December 7, 2011 10:34 PM GMT
The last two posts are depressing in they fail to grasp any point that was made previously,are ye sure ye are not Rocketfingers in disguise.
Kavvie is normally lamenting the past when things were allegedly good on the forum but he has not followed this thread and his last post is alarming.
Kelly again hasn`t followed the thread properly and comes with this nonsense about beaten dockets,do ye really believe the revenue are idiots.
Report dj876 December 7, 2011 10:37 PM GMT
IMO-No one answered any of the questions in my opening post,which leads me to the conclusion that none of ye have the answers!!
Report Wallflower December 7, 2011 11:23 PM GMT
Apologies to dj876 for also being diverted from opening postHappy. I did try to contribute on-topic earlier in the thread but it seems to have been side-tracked.

From an Irish Revenue point of view winnings from betting are deemed as Capital Acquistion (as is lottery winnings) - however they are exempt from tax. I'm sure I don't have to spell it out - but just in case earnings from gambling are not taxable.

The only practical way for a government to tax gamblers is at point of sale - when you make the bet, i.e. betting tax on all bets when they are being placed.

Kavvie is correct, losses like any other business could be written off against tax and it becomes completely unenforceable for a myriad of reasons.

Wmfb, if you think this is incorrect could you please direct us to the Irish Revenue information as to the rules, rates applied, thresholds, declaration mechanisms, time-frames  and exemptions allowed in this area? If it is the case then they must exist because the last time I checked you can't have secret taxesHappy. "I know a bloke.."....doesn't really cut it to be honest. Happy huntingCool

Apologies again dl876.
Report Kelly December 8, 2011 12:25 AM GMT
So if I put in an observation about your story re your pro gambling friend , Wildman , it makes my post "depressing" . Ever studied logic , Wildman ?

My post is a  direct reaction to your post , if mine is irrelevant its on your head  , not mine . Just following your handle on the thread .

Apart from beaten dockets what documentary evidence would anyone have re gambling losses ( presumably all your friends bookies accounts and exchange accounts aggregated would show a profit ) . In the last analysis , if your friend spent his winning money in traceable manner , he is not that shrewd  , just naive unless he was happy to pay the tax .  Cash betting on the other hand is  impossible to track , think any child would know that , only proof anyone ever had the  bet is in the writing , how many times can you back a horse in different writing or with the help of mates ? Or on the nod at the course ( maybe that has changed with technology ) , but in the old days lots of my on course bets were unwritten I suspect , might have to do with bookies returns , but thats not my business .  Weren't big anyway then . Some of the bookies now have loyalty cards , and debit machines in their offices .  To help the customers ? Or to assist in keeping track ?

We live in a big brother society . First rule is keep your cards close to your chest , you never know who is watching . We all know stories about how people get caught dodging their commitments  , but there always has to be evidence . Lifestyle is observable  , stylish suits and shirts come with a known price tag , plus the homes abroad and at home . The revenue guys are not stupid  , but they cant trace smoke . They can trace credit card spend , bank accounts , loyalty card spend , debit card spend  , anything to do with a card , but cash is still largely untraceable , a fact which niggles the authorities a lot , and every move by them is towards a cashless society  . A pro gambler would have lots of spare cash floating aound  , particularly if successful , no need to spend other than cash , unless he wanted to pay tax at whatever level was demanded .

Lest any body thinks that I am advocating tax evasion  , I often quote one of my friends , who happened to be head honcho of our legal profession .  Quote " the biggest hooks are the governments , they always win , because if they dont they just change the rules " . It is  the DUTY of each citizen to pay the appropiate tax , but NO MORE .  Ever had to deal with some of the government departments ? If they were all efficient we would not be in the mess we are in now . One of my brothers is a civil servant , half the people he works with he would not give house room to .

My wife got a tax demand some years ago despite her only income being a state pension for the last 10 years , the person who wrote the offending missive should have been sacked on the spot .  Every night our airwaves are full of stories about what is essentially maladministration by those in authority  , be it legal injustice , social injustice , political and fiscal ineptitude . Letting those  authorities come up with a figure would be inviting danger , if they could DISPROVE  a  figure  advised to them good luck to them .

But they dont have all the sharp minds .

Rant over , but the wastage and ineptitude exhibited daily , annually , and for decades is extremely annoying , wasting OUR money .  And our "government " locally aint the worst  , some of them do have their heads screwed on . But they are not all in the position to control things . And they have to look over their shoulder at the voters  , a lot of whom are civil servants ! ( up to 40% locally ) .
Report db1974 December 8, 2011 12:38 AM GMT
As regards the tax on betting profits, there are a couple of things in the tax laws which need to be considered:

1. At the moment, betting profits are not taxable in Ireland. However, the issue is not as simple as that

2. For example, if you sell a car, you don't pay tax on the sale of that car. However, if you buy and sell a number of cars regularly and make regular profits from this activity, Revenue COULD deem that you are operating a trade. The repeated activity of buying and selling cars would constitute one of the "badges of trade" as set out in Irish case law down through the years

3. In the same way, if someone is seen to maintain records and approach their betting in a very methodical and professional manner and that they make regular profits from this activity, Revenue COULD deem that this person is actually operating a trade and, again, they COULD tax the profits under the income tax regime. In my professional opinion, full-time trading would almost definitely fall into this category. As far as I am aware, this has not yet happened in either Ireland or the UK and I would like to see some case law before being convinced that this has actually happened*

4. As regards offsetting betting losses against other income, this is not necessarily the case and is a common misconception. What would happen is that gambling losses incurred in a particular year would be ring-fenced and could only be used to reduce future taxable gambling profits. This is currently the situation with rental losses, which can only be carried forward against future rental profits and cannot be used to reduce income tax on other forms of income. A very specific law would have to be passed to ring-fence gambling losses, as they are not currently ring-fenced AFAIK

5. IMO it would be next to impossible to tax gambling profits as Revenue could not just tax all the winnings without first allowing those aggregate winnings to be reduced by any gambling losses incurred in the same tax year (and unused ring-fenced losses from prior tax years). What would happen is that professional punters would merely collect as many losing dockets from their local bookies every day and use these losers to reduce their actual winnings, thereby reducing any potential tax-take to an absolute  minimum and make a farce of the system

* - if anyone knows someone who has been forced by Revenue to pay income tax on any gambling winnings, they should get that person to contact a good tax accountant and not take it lying down
Report grade 1 December 8, 2011 9:38 AM GMT
IMO it would be next to impossible to tax gambling profits as Revenue could not just tax all the winnings without first allowing those aggregate winnings to be reduced by any gambling losses incurred in the same tax year (and unused ring-fenced losses from prior tax years). What would happen is that professional punters would merely collect as many losing dockets from their local bookies every day and use these losers to reduce their actual winnings, thereby reducing any potential tax-take to an absolute  minimum and make a farce of the system

They can legislate to collect whatever tax they want. A model for collection of taxes without allowing for losses is the basic betfair commission model. All they have to do is make betfair responsible for collection of something akin to VAT on the commission they collect from Irish residents. A lot easier to collect than trying to identify profitable gamblers which would probably cost more than the revenue they would gain.
Report db1974 December 8, 2011 9:46 AM GMT
There is no tax on our statute books where losses cannot be offset against gains from the same trade so there is no way a tax on winnings will be introduced without allowing tax relief on losses as well.

While I appreciate that the govt can indeed legislate whatever they like, it's not going to happen in practice
Report Rocketfingers December 8, 2011 10:58 AM GMT
The long and short of this is wildman has imaginary friends Laugh
Report wildmanfromborneo December 8, 2011 7:49 PM GMT
The man with the imaginery blonde thinks i have imaginery friends.
Wallflower and Kelly keep stating there is no tax on gambling profits when they mean specific, thats why their requests for rates and such misses the point.
Everyone is liable to income tax,how the income is acquired is not that relevant to revenue so here is a case in point.Lets say Keen Leader is a professional and has a nice lifestyle,he buys a new car this is automatically reported to revenue,they decide to check.They arrive go through his expenditure and calculate how much they think he is earning and levy him accordingly for income tax.He can bring up swathes of losing dockets shout that gambling is not taxable all deemed irrelevant they are dealing with income.Remember they got Al Capone on income tax.
Report Rowley Mile December 8, 2011 8:46 PM GMT
Sounds a bit like the way c.a.b would settle your tax liability.
Report Rocketfingers December 8, 2011 8:46 PM GMT
Thanks great makey up story as usual Wildman. This makes no sense, sorry but as Squigs says, there has been no cases in Ireland.
Report Rocketfingers December 8, 2011 8:46 PM GMT
Thanks great makey up story as usual Wildman. This makes no sense, sorry but as Squigs says, there has been no cases in Ireland.
Report wildmanfromborneo December 8, 2011 8:52 PM GMT
It is supposed to be a makey up story as its an example.
Cab did investigate a professional punter recently,he was exonerated but it did frighten him.
Report 4 In A Row December 8, 2011 9:00 PM GMT
Not sure if Irish law differs from UK law,

But if you are resident in the UK, profits from Gambling are tax free. I know a couple of professionals who have consulted with the solicitor in the articles below. 

I believe there may be some legislation in the upcoming gambling bill that may give revenue the opportunity to tax profits arising from professional activity.
Report Rowley Mile December 8, 2011 9:03 PM GMT
Anything is possible in this country, if you're wealthy and retire early to live off bank interest, you will pay more in tax if you don't collect job seeker's allowance !!!
Report wildmanfromborneo December 8, 2011 9:11 PM GMT
4 in a row is it Kilkenny or Kerry?
It is a given there is no specific tax on gambling,there is income tax and thats the route they go to tax professional punters.
Report Blackwater December 8, 2011 9:19 PM GMT
Debating whether pro-gamblers in Ireland are liable for income tax is like arguing about whether or not leprechauns pay PRSI.

They are fictonal creatures and, as such, are exempt.
Report wildmanfromborneo December 8, 2011 9:28 PM GMT
Sidney Greenstreet,prominent horse owner his sole income is derived from gambling.
The Youghal punters again their sole income from gambling,although a chill wind has blown through that town.
Limerick horse owner with red colours again sole income from gambling.
Small Cork farmer card player but main income from gambling.
Report rover December 8, 2011 9:42 PM GMT
I know an individual who, having had several very good years betting in the noughties, decided to phone the Irish Revenue, and enquire whether or not he had a liability to income tax on his winnings. He was informed  that, the ONLY liability he had to tax, was to pay the tax in the betting shop on the bets he was placing. He was advised to keep records of his bets as he would need to prove that his income arose from betting. He had no other source of income apart from bank interest and most of his betting activity took place at the week-end.
Report wildmanfromborneo December 8, 2011 9:49 PM GMT
Rover there was no tax in betting shops in the noughties and no tax on the racecourses either.
Report Rowley Mile December 8, 2011 9:55 PM GMT
There was till about 4 years ago, 3% was the last i paid.
Report lapsy pa December 8, 2011 10:04 PM GMT
Dj876 more in line with your opening post,I,d imagine there is a fair bit of competition already with track players,sis owners,trading rooms.Very much a case of fastest finger first which would invite a mistake.The above aren,t cheap and on the presumption you are using here as the medium pc 1 can come into play by being in profit by as little as 6k.
Given race markets here in-running are dwindling seems more people want a slice of a smaller pie,i,d have doubts about the cost effectiveness of acquiring fast pics.
Report wildmanfromborneo December 8, 2011 10:20 PM GMT
McCreevy got rid of betting tax so it can`t be 4 years ago and if my memory serves me well was gone before the advent of the disastrous Euro.
Report kavvie December 8, 2011 10:21 PM GMT
wasnt on here for a few days.i had to work..but wildman seems to have this tendency to abuse/ridicule people when they have a diff opinion to him..? tax has to be paid on gambling winnings in ireland...end of story..remember the bould bertie said he made a lot of his money from gambling..that cute hoor knew it couldnt be touched..!!..does lotto winners have to pay tax?no..prize bonds? my granny wins at the bingo? a good nite at poker? ridiculous thread really.
Report wildmanfromborneo December 8, 2011 10:32 PM GMT
Kavvie read the thread and stop moaning,we are in agreement that there is no tax on once off gambling wins, my point is income is income and as such subject to tax.Do you really think the 4 professionals i listed are allowed some sort of tax exemption and if so surely others would avail of this tax free status.
Report jadesdillemma December 8, 2011 10:53 PM GMT
would the reason sum of these people wer liable 4 income tax be they are licensed bookmakers?
Report wildmanfromborneo December 8, 2011 11:07 PM GMT
Sidney no longer a bookmaker
Of the Youghal mob only one is a bookmaker
The other two were never bookmakers

but surely the bookmakers would use this obvious loophole by saying they lost laying but won punting.
The big weakness for anyone who underpays his tax is explaining how he maintains his lifestyle so i can`t believe this get out of jail card is available.
Report rover December 8, 2011 11:10 PM GMT
Rover there was no tax in betting shops in the noughties and no tax on the racecourses either.

Wildman, in 1985 the rate for in-shop betting tax was cut from 20% to 10%. Between the years 1999 and 2006, the government reduced betting duty from 10% to 5% to 2% and finally to 1%. It remains at 1% today.
Report MCKENNA December 8, 2011 11:10 PM GMT
You are wrong there WMFB, the Limerick man was a bookie before. Just to let you knowWink
Report jadesdillemma December 8, 2011 11:15 PM GMT
yep the limk man was bookie and so was part 2 of the youghal gang and if im right bout the small cork farmer his a bookie 2
Report wildmanfromborneo December 8, 2011 11:27 PM GMT
Rover i accept what you say but the bookie absorbs that 1% so not paid by punter,no tax on course at all since well before the Euro.
McKenna,i would have lost money there i only remember him as a bookies clerk and personally never saw him stand.
Jadesdilemma the man you mention would be a big Golden Vale farmer not the same.
Report Wallflower December 8, 2011 11:31 PM GMT
Jeez chr1st WMFB are you still at this. Sweeping statements all over the place with no back-up, "income is income and subject to tax". WRONG AGAIN! Not all income is subject to tax -FACT. (You obviously have not done much in the way of tax returns). In depends on the nature of the income, as outlined by Revenue - FACT. They EXPLICITLY state income from gambling is EXEMPT from tax - FACT.

As I stated before you can't have secret taxes!!

More yarns about blokes you know and store is no consequence. As requested before please refer us to Revenue's information on income/capital acquisition - this is the only thing that matters. Yarns and stories are completely meaningless.

Off now to earn some tax-free income on Cricket and NFLHappy
Report jadesdillemma December 8, 2011 11:31 PM GMT
thats him could tell u few good stories bout his time in the factory sum character that fella
Report rover December 8, 2011 11:40 PM GMT
Wildman, I'm not going to explain it as I'm off to bed. I'd say you like an argument but logic isn't your strongest quality. Night.
Report Rocketfingers December 8, 2011 11:49 PM GMT

Wildclown getting hammered from pillar to post he's punch drunk as he sits at his computer Laugh
Report chingachgook December 8, 2011 11:58 PM GMT
he doesnt half spout shyte
Report wildmanfromborneo December 8, 2011 11:58 PM GMT
Wallflower there is a fortune to be made for you explaining this income that is not taxable,set yourself up as a tax consultant and for you to state they explicitly say income from gambling is exempt from tax is wrong.Contact J.P.McManus and explain all this tax free income he could have,you will be on the payroll in double jigtime,he would no longer have to pretend to be in Switzerland and wouldn`t be suffering the snide remarks.
Rover i don`t believe your friend rang the revenue and the facts of your story are wrong because they are not true that is the reason you will not explain.
Jadesdilemma is factory a euphemism for jail?
Report Rocketfingers December 9, 2011 12:30 AM GMT
Wildclown let it go you're the only one that does not get it Laugh
Report Wallflower December 9, 2011 12:39 AM GMT
Drinks break in the cricketHappy

WMFB - See below - From Revenue site -  "capital gains" I meant before, not "capital acquistion" (slip of the keyboard, a live issue for me right now where I am not faring too well with our Revenue friendsCry).

Now, I can't see where I'm going to make a fortune peddling information that is freely available. You accuse others of missing the point, but since you clearly are, I'll try this for the last time. Any taxes levied by the government on a person or company must outline the rates and thresholds applied. But there are none specified for gambling income. Why might that be? Yes, you've guessed it - because there aren't any.

No fee is required. But you know what, I'd nearly pay you if you'd just shut-up and stop going on about this; ruining the point of the original thread with off-topic ill-informed hearsay.

I'm busy, and not goinng to waste any more time on this this evening.

Are any Capital Gains exempt from CGT?

Gains on the disposal of some assets are specifically exempted from CGT. These include:

    Gains on the disposal of property owned by you (house, apartment, etc.) which was occupied by you or by a dependent relative as a sole or main residence. Restrictions may apply where the property was not fully occupied as a main residence throughout the period of ownership or where the sale price reflects development value.
    >Gains from betting, lotteries, sweepstakes, bonuses payable under the National Instalments Savings Scheme and Prize Bond winnings
    >Gains on Government Loans and Debentures issued by certain Semi-state bodies
    >Gains on disposal of wasting chattels (e.g. animals, private motor cars, etc.)
    >Gains on Life Assurance policies (unless purchased from another person or taken out with certain foreign insurers on or after 20 May 1993)
    >Gains made by individuals on tangible moveable property where the consideration does not exceed €2,540
Report Distant View December 9, 2011 12:59 AM GMT
We go back as far as 1925 to find the only settled case that dealt with the activities of a professional gambler constituted a trade. The case was Graham v Green [1925] 9TC309

Up to very recently, the UK HMRC have upheld this judgement and specifically state that "The fact that a taxpayer has a system by which they place their bets, or that they are sufficiently successful to earn a living by gambling does not make their activities a trade". This is stated in their Manual on their website - Link below

I am unaware of any case which has reversed this decision at present, but there could be some in the pipeline that have not been decided as of yet. Most Irish Case Law is similar to UK case law, although there have been some differences. There has been no Irish case on this matter, so at present the 1925 decision stands.

Regarding Spread Betting winnings, the paragraphs from the Taxing Financial Transactions Book (last edition 2010) can be useful - This states that spread betting winnings are not taxable receipts.

Spread Betting   

4.11.1    Outline of the transaction   
      Spread betting is a derivative product that is a relatively recent innovation. It involves betting on the direction of a financial instrument, e.g. a share, currency or stock market index. It does not involve the actual purchasing or disposing of that underlying instrument but instead staking an amount that the instrument will move in an upwards or downwards direction. Since there is no significant capital outlay at the outset of the transaction the risks of losses is significant as the financial instrument may easily move in the direction opposite to that taken by the investor. Spread betting has been seen as the futures market for the retail investor.

4.11.2    Taxation treatment    
      Spread betting is not regarded as the provision of a financial service. It is operated under a bookmakers licence and therefore the tax legislation applying to betting transactions applies. Current Revenue practice dictates that the provision of spread betting is chargeable as Schedule D Case 1 as the trade of bookmaking. Spread betting itself is subject to betting duty and providers must register as bookmakers and obtain a bookmakers licence from Revenue. The tax treatment is governed by the provisions of the Consolidated Betting Duty Legislation that is contained in Part 2 Chapter 1 Finance Act 2002 and the Betting Duty Regulations 2002 (S.I. 174/2002). S67(2)(b) Finance Act 2002 imposes betting duty at the rate of 2% on the unit stake on all spread betting contracts. The bookmaker can elect to pay the betting duty on behalf of the punter but no Case 1 deduction will be allowed for this. S613 TCA 1997 provides that winnings from betting shall not be chargeable gains. The reason that financial spread betting is treated as a non-taxable receipt is because of the difference between gambling and speculating. In Townsend (IOT) v Grundy [1933] 18 TC 140 a manufacturer of farm machinery also started to deal in cotton futures. The question arose whether these were gambling profits or taxable under Schedule D Case IV. Reliance was placed on the Cooper v Stubbs case [1925] 10 TC 29. It was decided that there is a difference between gambling and speculation. Speculating involves real transactions being entered into. These transactions give rise to contractual rights and are not mere bets. Rowlatt J in Graham v Green [1925] 9 TC 309 is the authority for the proposition that a bet is “merely an irrational agreement that one person should pay another person on the happening of some event”. It will be interesting to see how long this accepted practice remains.

The Irish revenue simply cannot impose a tax on betting winnings at present, irrespective of how frequent and successful the transactions are. This has to be decided in court so that tax law can change on the matter.

Wildman - I would refer you to the 1936 case of the Inland Revenue Commissioners v Duke of Westminister for some light reading as it provides a solid background tpo how many tax cases are decided.
Report Wallflower December 9, 2011 3:08 AM GMT
Thank you Mr Flower, and in particular to Mr.View - a most definitive, illuminating and well-presented contribution - greatly enhancing the level of debate on this issue.

Mr Borneo would you care to either counter the above, or accept the arguments and facts presented? (Mind you, I would have assumed that you would be pleased with the information received). If you do choose to counter then I must caution that rumour, tittle-tattle, hearsay or unsubstantiated opinion will be inadmissable, as it doesn't progress us towards resolution and could even adversely effect your standing among the Irish Sports Forum communityCool.

The floor is yours, but time will be given if you wish to avail of Mr. View's invitation to examine 1936 case of the Inland Revenue Commissioners v Duke of Westminister.Happy
Report grade 1 December 9, 2011 9:07 AM GMT
| Topic/replies: 2,442 | Blogger: db1974's blog
There is no tax on our statute books where losses cannot be offset against gains from the same trade so there is no way a tax on winnings will be introduced without allowing tax relief on losses as well.

While I appreciate that the govt can indeed legislate whatever they like, it's not going to happen in practice

db1974 ..I think we are at cross purposes. Gambling winnings can continue to be exempt from income tax so the profits and losses calculation from same trade is not necessary. The government could however effectively tax winnings with an indirect VAT type tax. The argument would be about the location/tax point of the commission transaction ie Does the tax point arise in the country of sport where bet takes place ( aussie wallet model ?), location of the bettor or location of facilitator (betfair registered office etc) .
Report wildmanfromborneo December 9, 2011 12:18 PM GMT
As senior counsel for Mr Borneo we wish to change our plea to guilty.
Judge Paris looking down his glasses "Mr Borneo your defence was obtuse irrational stubborn and indeed tetchy,the damning evidence of among others DB1974 Distant View and Wallflower left you with no alternative but to plead guilty" a muffled shout of i meant income tax went round the courtroom,Judge Paris glowered "if the word income tax is mentioned again i shall double your sentence which at the moment is a 250 pound fine to be paid to the I.J.F. and a period of suspension from the forum,the length of your suspension to be decided by DB1974 Distant View and Wallflower it will be a mean of their three figures[life would be a bit severe] you are allowed some questions"
A contrite and stooped  Borneo shuffles forward and in a barely audible rasp asks
"Do professional gamblers have to make income tax returns
Can they plead part earnings for a small business,pay tax on that,retain the other part as gambling and so tax exempt"
Report Baz December 9, 2011 12:54 PM GMT
Borneo, I live in the UK so the details may be different. I do not fill out a tax return, each year I tell the tax authorities the truth, that I earn money from betting and have zero taxable income. Each year they tell me that I have no tax liability as is the case. Is this different in Ireland ?
Can self employed people lie about their earnings? Welcome to the real world.
Report Distant View December 9, 2011 1:03 PM GMT
The Bertie situation is a little different. Why did the Revenue not open a case on him in relation to gifts received, gambling winnings etc? Limitations on enquiries are not applicable when suspected fraud has been committed - I am not commenting here on whether it was or not, but if it was a full audit should be carried out. There would be large sums of unpaid CAT with interest and penalties accruing over a number of years.

With regard to income from gambling, as it is exempt, I am pretty sure it does not have to be included on any return as there is not a spot for it. However Revenue could still launch an investigation into your affairs and you would need to be in possession of accurate records to substantiate claims that the income you have earned and the lifestyle that have enjoyed has resulted from exempt income.
Report wildmanfromborneo December 9, 2011 1:06 PM GMT
Baz thanks for the reply i am astounded at that but completely accept what you say,here you can be fined for not making a return but having been so wrong say that with no confidence.
As for lying on tax forms,don`t we all?
Report wildmanfromborneo December 9, 2011 1:13 PM GMT
Distant View thanks for your detailed and reasoned responses and your gratis advice,would a professional punter without other income have to make a return or is he exempt from that also.
Report Baz December 9, 2011 1:18 PM GMT
Borneo, I can promise you that I am 100% honest and correct re the UK, I know a minimum of 20 people very well who are in the same position (ex work colleagues). I spoke to a lad from the tax office at the end of tax year 2010/11, who just said 'yes a lot of people are doing that these days'. Again I am not certain that the same scenario is applicable in Ireland but surely Irish gamblers could just move to the UK if they were making it pay and were likely to face a tax bill?
Report reb December 9, 2011 1:23 PM GMT
Wildman, you posted this earlier in this thread :

U.K. and Ireland charge income tax on your winnings if you are a professional,........

You was wrong. Whoda thunk it ??
Report Distant View December 9, 2011 1:27 PM GMT

The tax acts say the following with regard to the obligation to file a return with respect of income tax;

"Every chargeable person shall as respects a chargeable period prepare and deliver to the Collector-General on or before the specified return date for the chargeable period a return in the prescribed form...."

Chargeable person is defined for these purposes below;

chargeable person” means, as respects a chargeable period, a person who is chargeable to tax for that period, whether on that person’s own account or on account of some other person but, as respects income tax

In this case, the professional punter without other sources of income would not be required to file a return. If there are other sources of income, irrespective of how small, then they would be obliged to file a return, even if the tax credits would more than cover any income earned. This is all based on self-assessment and the onus is on the person concerned.
Report wildmanfromborneo December 9, 2011 1:37 PM GMT
Reb,not only wrong but spectacularly wrong and not for the first time.
One thing the great sport of racing teaches us is you will be wrong more often than right.
Distant View thanks again for the detailed response again, even i am getting it now,wish i knew then what i know now and can`t wait to share my new found knowledge with interested third parties.
Report Rocketfingers December 9, 2011 1:44 PM GMT
Report reb December 9, 2011 1:45 PM GMT
One thing the great sport of racing teaches us is you will be wrong more often than right

I thought one of the main points of this thread was that it doesn't teach all of us  that lesson.
Report dj876 December 9, 2011 1:48 PM GMT
Tunnel vision is wmfb greatest punting flaw.
Report Rocketfingers December 9, 2011 1:49 PM GMT
Wildclown really getting torn to shreds in this thread, it's taking him 3 more pages to accept he was wrong. Laugh
Report dj876 December 9, 2011 1:54 PM GMT
Marginally ahead of his arrogance....Knowledge is power but not if ur a spoofer!!
Report Wallflower December 10, 2011 1:39 PM GMT
On behalf of the plaintiffs in this case I would like to make a plea to Judge Paris of leniency in the case of Mr.Borneo - his contention that we are often more wrong than right has struck a chord with members of the communityCool. He without sin.....and all that...

While quite sure of our initial position we too have also learned more about the intricacies and implications of this case and would recommend Mr.Borneo perhaps make a small gesture to a charity of his choice and receives no custodial sentence or financial penalty, with full forum participation rights obviously remaining in placeHappy.
Report kavvie December 10, 2011 2:32 PM GMT
he has no bother insulting people on his ignorant tirades though!!..not a good trait imo..
Report wildmanfromborneo December 10, 2011 11:02 PM GMT
Some people obviously hate this thread,i like it.I accept it moved off point but so does conversation.A discussion takes place on tax,entrenched views expressed by myself,detailed responses by among others DB1974,Wallflower and Distant View,myself getting sidetracked by income tax,a humorous post from Wallflower and a brilliant forensic post from Distant View brings the realisation that they were right and i was wrong,end result i was educated and they never charged me a bob.
Its one of the reasons i love this forum,you can learn so much.There are great posters here,there are also some negative sniping posters but such is life.
Report neill d December 11, 2011 2:52 AM GMT
good thread that has brought out a few of the sharp lads imo, just shows a fella doesn't have t o be paying for Westlaw to cite things that are relevant as well, a grand read and an educational one for anyone lucky enough, I'll say it to Mr Wilmott if i ever pass himLaugh
Report rubyisgodinthesaddle December 11, 2011 9:44 PM GMT
I completely given up Internet Betting had no discipline. My Discipline is very very good now and good Discipline means I can MAKE IT PAY. I still use the Internet only to lay off but have little in my account these days.

Discipline gentleman is everything!! and backing people like Tiger Woods with BOTTLE us Humans could only dream of.
Report Distant View December 11, 2011 10:05 PM GMT
How do you punt without recourse to the internet to bet rather than lay off?

There are numerous bookmakers who do not have a retail presence and very often are best price about a particular horse, golfer, football team etc.

It is absolutely critical that you take the best price about everything that you bet on.
Report rubyisgodinthesaddle December 11, 2011 10:12 PM GMT
I look at the prices online DV and I just go to a shop. If i feel i have made a terrible judgement I will lay off what ever is in my account on bf but have no other accounts anymore.

I don't believe in price, i just believe in discipline. Discipline i key in life and for me is the 100% thing for me too keep reminding myself. Its easy to win but even easier to lose.
Report Tolmi December 11, 2011 11:19 PM GMT
There are many keys to success and what works for one may not work for another.The best racing judge I know is not a successful punter because of his inability to control himself on a poor day.There are many disiplined punters out there but they lack the necessary skills required to spot the value on a consistent basis.The rare combination of discipline and judgement is in my opinion what is necessary for success in the long term.
However I find it hard to believe that someone who is not price conscious can succeed long term.
Report Kelly December 12, 2011 11:00 AM GMT
Value and discipline the key factors .

If you always back value you can trade it  if you want with a win/ lose guarantee of profit . Each way in selected races very often the value . Discipline identifies the markets where you have a chance ( never look at the 22 runner upside downers myself where its 8/1 the field )--thats where the bookies make profit .

And in the last analysis "no odds justify a bad risk " .  Old saying , validity not changed in time though .
Report kavvie December 12, 2011 11:45 AM GMT
ruby you were making great sense til you said price dont matter to you..price is every thing..if you are backing heads every time in a toss at 5/4 you will win..i know lots of punters who are glad to just back a winner even if the price is first concern when having a bet is to get on at the best price..if you do you have a great chance..
Report oldbean December 12, 2011 4:02 PM GMT
IS THERE  a case for backing just in markets close to 100%, like football , tennis cricket, most horse races ar 125 ish...
Report RoyalAcademy December 12, 2011 5:20 PM GMT
A few random thoughts (forgive me if there's logic flaws) on why I generally fail as a punter even though I have unearthed many, many winners over the last few years when I decided I would treat my "hobby" more seriously i.e. give it more of my leisure time:

Five examples of horses I had selected for medium term support (and seriously fancied to win against most opposition)and somehow failed to cash in on over recent years were: CADUCEUS on his bumper debut, SOLE POWER in the Nunthorpe and FERRIS BUELLER on his maiden hurdle win (in recent seasons) and RUN WITH THE WIND and LA COLLINA this year-all at huge prices. All perfectly illustrate my successful contrarian selection approach to betting yet, even though I prove to myself year-in, year-out that I can do it I fail consistently to back them.

The number of bets I would make would be small so I THINK  I would be well in profit.

(I had a horse on my radar since 2010 that ran as a rag last week at odds of 150/1+. He jumped the last upsides and was only run out of it by two horses close to the line paying a decent place here. I had "tipped" the horse to friend and he thanked me profusely for the tip-I hadn't a sous on it as usual!)

1. Once one makes the selection you are "bound" to follow it and somehow I rail against the setting of "rules" (the gambler is far more flighty and doesn't like order)
2. I have instilled in myself the discipline NOT to bet but somehow havent yet managed to instil in myself the (rather boring?) strategy of following simple rules to have a bet.
3, As an aside, I would hate the notion of taking a tip or, say, paying for a tip because I know I can find winning outsiders that i don't have to share with the masses.
3. I have never really set aside a bank so when I bet I can think I may be squandering a benefit for a family member etc especially now that cash isnt as easy to come by as in the past
4. I hate losing and if you're not properly organised this can be a huge deterrent to betting
5. I often remark that if I were "managing" the funds of third parties I would most likely be a very successful trader
6. I have never had the stomach to record all my losses even if I havent gambled much in recent times

I probably need something like a betting partner where I bring the winners and he/she brings the betting discipline.

Everyone will have different stories...........
Report rubyisgodinthesaddle December 12, 2011 7:20 PM GMT
Kavvie i think you picked me up wrong. Price matters of course, what i was trying to put across that in terms of my priorities price is nowhere compared to discipline but when i say discipline i mean that I rarely back under 2/1 unless its for big money. Never back odds on only on track. Majority of bets are between 2/1 and 7/2 never go higher than that unless its a big e/w on the golf.

Price of course matters, but its only relevant in the long term if your disipline is basically not in doubt.

The difference between getting 4.6 on here for Tiger Woods and 3/1 on Tiger Woods in Powers is nothing as I kept to my game plan and have no lost any winnings where if I had money in Betfair(winnings) I would do some bet i had not thought true and more than likely lose.
Report kavvie December 12, 2011 7:34 PM GMT
fair seem fairly tuned into the game..its just how you phrased it..yea most times its better at to take a slightly shorter price in pp or whoever as its guaranteed etc..
Report rubyisgodinthesaddle December 12, 2011 7:37 PM GMT
Kavvie the main reason i bet with PP is there concessions, at times they are outrageous good.
Report kavvie December 12, 2011 10:08 PM GMT
they are the best out there for sure..the ruby enhancement must be costing them a fortune...and they arnt afraid to take abet anymore..i seem a guy having 5k the other day on a yoke at 6/ bother..and it won!
Report rubyisgodinthesaddle December 15, 2011 8:52 PM GMT
One festive tip.

Just because there is plenty of racing makes it more likely they will be very false results.

Concentrate on Leapardstown and maybe a Graded Races at Limerick. If English Racing is your thing then  Kempton.
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