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06 Nov 11
17:24
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Date Joined:
05 Jan 10
Senator criticises betting shop law
http://www.theirishfield.ie
Independent Senator Mary Ann O’Brien has criticised the Government for not allowing betting shops to stay open for the duration of this weekend’s Breeders’ Cup races in America.
She claims the lost opportunity will cost the exchequer €72,000 in tax revenue.
In a statement released to The Irish Field, she said: “The Breeders’ Cup is a world renowned thoroughbred race meeting which will see tens of thousands of euros wagered by Irish punters over the two day event.
“The fact that Irish bookies will be unable to remain open late on Saturday night to capture this business is very short sighted given that these bets will still be laid without any tangible benefit to the state.”
Under the current legislation Irish betting shops must close their doors at 6.30pm in the winter months unless there is an Irish race meeting on that evening.
The bookies were allowed stay open on Friday evening as there was racing at Dundalk.
“The most frustrating thing about this is that a much needed €72,000 could be created for the state’s coffers on one evening by a simple stroke of Minister Shatter’s pen. All that is required is a special ‘waiver’ to allow shops trade.”
According to figures supplied by the senator, who has had talks this week with members of the Irish bookmaking trade, an additional 9,600 hours of work would be created for 2,400 Irish workers in 1,200 betting shops across the country by this step.
This would yield approximately €30,000 in PRSI on the €115,200 extra wages created and €42,300 in betting tax for the exchequer.
“The Government’s failure to take this simple step means that this additional revenue will be lost as Irish punters will use online, exchange and mobile operators to lay their bets and the taxes will be lost to other states at a time we can ill afford it as a country.
“This case illustrates perfectly why Minister Shatter’s reported reforms to the gambling laws in this country are long overdue as millions of euro is being lost through online betting each year.
“It’s time to grasp this nettle and bring the legislation forward and in the mean time do everything in the Government’s power to capture this lost revenue.”
Senator O'Brien is married to Jonathan Irwin, former head of Goffs Bloodstock Sales and the Phoenix Park Racecourse
http://www.theirishfield.ie
Independent Senator Mary Ann O’Brien has criticised the Government for not allowing betting shops to stay open for the duration of this weekend’s Breeders’ Cup races in America.
She claims the lost opportunity will cost the exchequer €72,000 in tax revenue.
In a statement released to The Irish Field, she said: “The Breeders’ Cup is a world renowned thoroughbred race meeting which will see tens of thousands of euros wagered by Irish punters over the two day event.
“The fact that Irish bookies will be unable to remain open late on Saturday night to capture this business is very short sighted given that these bets will still be laid without any tangible benefit to the state.”
Under the current legislation Irish betting shops must close their doors at 6.30pm in the winter months unless there is an Irish race meeting on that evening.
The bookies were allowed stay open on Friday evening as there was racing at Dundalk.
“The most frustrating thing about this is that a much needed €72,000 could be created for the state’s coffers on one evening by a simple stroke of Minister Shatter’s pen. All that is required is a special ‘waiver’ to allow shops trade.”
According to figures supplied by the senator, who has had talks this week with members of the Irish bookmaking trade, an additional 9,600 hours of work would be created for 2,400 Irish workers in 1,200 betting shops across the country by this step.
This would yield approximately €30,000 in PRSI on the €115,200 extra wages created and €42,300 in betting tax for the exchequer.
“The Government’s failure to take this simple step means that this additional revenue will be lost as Irish punters will use online, exchange and mobile operators to lay their bets and the taxes will be lost to other states at a time we can ill afford it as a country.
“This case illustrates perfectly why Minister Shatter’s reported reforms to the gambling laws in this country are long overdue as millions of euro is being lost through online betting each year.
“It’s time to grasp this nettle and bring the legislation forward and in the mean time do everything in the Government’s power to capture this lost revenue.”
Senator O'Brien is married to Jonathan Irwin, former head of Goffs Bloodstock Sales and the Phoenix Park Racecourse
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I knew the second I read this that this was ridiculous did a quick calculation in my head on the Senator's figures before reading further on that she actually showed us her workings. So I'm interested and delved a little deeper.
These shift staff including cashiers are not on €12 hr which the figures suggest and half of these shops would single man anyway. I think you find not many shops could justify being open for the evening, actual betting interest in Irish shops on the Breeders cup would be minimal.
I would have it at €10.50 per hr median, and very conservatively a 1/3 of shops single manning with two staff on at the remainder = 2000 staff, with the shop open till 9.30 which is as late as they will stay open for these days and you get a total of €63,200 again I have no doubt many betting shops would in fact not open for the breeders cup.
The PRSI figure is bewildering. I just don't know how she has calculated a €30,000 take from her circa €115,000 figure.
We are talking about students and part time staff working a lot of these weekend shifts, these students one would assume would be paid under €352 per week, this means no contribution from the employee and employer contribution halved to 4.25% = 3 hrs work @10.50 hr and contributions of €1.33 for the 3 hrs worked.
As I am happy the senators figures are ridiculous for full time staff and shop managers lets be generous and assume 37.5 hours working per week earning the €12 per hr stated by Senator O'Brien. These leads to gross wages of €450. We have 4% employee contribution and 10.75% employer contribution. €36 gross wage with a 4% employee PRSI charge = €1.44 and and employer contribution of €3.87 netting the tax payer €5.33 in PRSI.
We take a 70/30 split of full time to part time staff and we get a PRSI figure for 2000 staff of €8,260 or 28% of the senators figure.
If I allowed for 2400 staff all working full time for 4 hours as per Ms O'Brien's figure you will not get more then €17,056. As said before this figure is unrealistic and even then I can't find how she got 'approximately €30,000'
The betting tax figure relies on gross takings of €3,500 + per shop and is similarly over optimistic. Some shops will obtain these figures of course but the median is set way too high. If these figures were attainable shops would be able to absorb the betting tax rise to 2% that the IBA claim will shut half of them down.
I look forward to Sharon Byrne and others championing such erroneous and misleading figures again of course.
These shift staff including cashiers are not on €12 hr which the figures suggest and half of these shops would single man anyway. I think you find not many shops could justify being open for the evening, actual betting interest in Irish shops on the Breeders cup would be minimal.
I would have it at €10.50 per hr median, and very conservatively a 1/3 of shops single manning with two staff on at the remainder = 2000 staff, with the shop open till 9.30 which is as late as they will stay open for these days and you get a total of €63,200 again I have no doubt many betting shops would in fact not open for the breeders cup.
The PRSI figure is bewildering. I just don't know how she has calculated a €30,000 take from her circa €115,000 figure.
We are talking about students and part time staff working a lot of these weekend shifts, these students one would assume would be paid under €352 per week, this means no contribution from the employee and employer contribution halved to 4.25% = 3 hrs work @10.50 hr and contributions of €1.33 for the 3 hrs worked.
As I am happy the senators figures are ridiculous for full time staff and shop managers lets be generous and assume 37.5 hours working per week earning the €12 per hr stated by Senator O'Brien. These leads to gross wages of €450. We have 4% employee contribution and 10.75% employer contribution. €36 gross wage with a 4% employee PRSI charge = €1.44 and and employer contribution of €3.87 netting the tax payer €5.33 in PRSI.
We take a 70/30 split of full time to part time staff and we get a PRSI figure for 2000 staff of €8,260 or 28% of the senators figure.
If I allowed for 2400 staff all working full time for 4 hours as per Ms O'Brien's figure you will not get more then €17,056. As said before this figure is unrealistic and even then I can't find how she got 'approximately €30,000'
The betting tax figure relies on gross takings of €3,500 + per shop and is similarly over optimistic. Some shops will obtain these figures of course but the median is set way too high. If these figures were attainable shops would be able to absorb the betting tax rise to 2% that the IBA claim will shut half of them down.
I look forward to Sharon Byrne and others championing such erroneous and misleading figures again of course.
No matter what figures are right they should be open all year round up to 930pm it certainly would help employment to a small degree anyway and would contribute to state coffers
plus it might be easier to get on if there is a downside i cant see it
plus it might be easier to get on if there is a downside i cant see it
I went into a Lads shop on Friday night last at 9.00 pm approx , to back SNA ( 7/1 , best price -1/4 odds place and no restrictions if you spread your money in cash ). There was 1 person in the pitch , playing a FOBT . Was in the shop for 5 -10 minutes while I woke the (2) staff from their slumber and got them to activate the Breeders Cup prices and subsequently take my bet . Nobody else came in , I did my bet and left , people / punters dont hang about bookies shops any more , they can watch most races and bet on the net 24/7 from the comfort of their own home .
I can cast my mind back to when shops here first started to open late back in the sixties / seventies . No evening racing then to speak of , shops used to get action from the dogs in England , and coupled with interest on soccer matches etc ( and the following days racing ) there would be occasionally queues to get in . Only a few bookies operated , Sean Graham led the way as I recall near the Markets in a rented shop , and a few others followed .
Too much fairly rubbish racing now , little interest , plus competition and availability from internet and ATR / RUK . Doubt if its economic to keep certain shops open at night . Breeders Cup , Saturday , may have sperked some interest , but doubt there would have been queues to get in if they had been open in South -- and no FOBT's there thank goodness , scourge of the planet .
I can cast my mind back to when shops here first started to open late back in the sixties / seventies . No evening racing then to speak of , shops used to get action from the dogs in England , and coupled with interest on soccer matches etc ( and the following days racing ) there would be occasionally queues to get in . Only a few bookies operated , Sean Graham led the way as I recall near the Markets in a rented shop , and a few others followed .
Too much fairly rubbish racing now , little interest , plus competition and availability from internet and ATR / RUK . Doubt if its economic to keep certain shops open at night . Breeders Cup , Saturday , may have sperked some interest , but doubt there would have been queues to get in if they had been open in South -- and no FOBT's there thank goodness , scourge of the planet .
Shop gets to open late, Bookies say this will both protect thousands of jobs and create 100s others. Suddenly they will claim late opening throughout the year is uneconomical and the only way to make it pay and maintain these new jobs and the jobs that had been previously protected is through FOBT's.
Quite a plausible scenario of events.
Quite a plausible scenario of events.
Bookmakers who are saying opening late all year round will create more jobs are talking bull!!
all they will do is start to single man there shops in the evenings,have all ready seen this in some shops over the summer months
Them FOBTs are the crack cocaine of gambling,it'll be a sad day if they ever arrive over here
all they will do is start to single man there shops in the evenings,have all ready seen this in some shops over the summer months
Them FOBTs are the crack cocaine of gambling,it'll be a sad day if they ever arrive over here
Anyone remember when virtually the only shops were Kilmartins in Dublin and the tax was 10% or more paid on . We also had a tax percentage , which funnily enough was collectable by the Vat Man , know one civil servant from those days who spent nearly all his working life in the bookies , collecting the tax . Counting the docket figures in spot checks . But the offices in those days were not like we have become used to!
There was also a "blower" service which came via Manchester - Exchange Telegraph I think it was . The bookies got a commentary , but were not allowed to broadcast it ( in case it encouraged gambling ) .
Went to collect my SNA bet around lunchtime today in that Lads shop , 30 minutes before first race . No one there but myself and the 2 staff , not even a FOBT numpty player .
There was also a "blower" service which came via Manchester - Exchange Telegraph I think it was . The bookies got a commentary , but were not allowed to broadcast it ( in case it encouraged gambling ) .
Went to collect my SNA bet around lunchtime today in that Lads shop , 30 minutes before first race . No one there but myself and the 2 staff , not even a FOBT numpty player .
I also remember when tax paid on was 20%, it led to a lot of people acting as pub bookie in the late seventies early eighties
FOBTs are gone they are not going to happen anytime soon hence Billys pull out. Its stupid that i cant go to a bookies after 6.30pm in the winter but can buy 20 bottles of beer for €15 up to 10pm
they should be open all year round
they should be open all year round
Kelly
07 Nov 11 10:50 Joined: 08 Mar 01 | Topic/replies: 1,592 | Blogger: Kelly's blog
I went into a Lads shop on Friday night last at 9.00 pm approx , to back SNA ( 7/1 , best price -1/4 odds place and no restrictions if you spread your money in cash ).
07 Nov 11 10:50 Joined: 08 Mar 01 | Topic/replies: 1,592 | Blogger: Kelly's blog
I went into a Lads shop on Friday night last at 9.00 pm approx , to back SNA ( 7/1 , best price -1/4 odds place and no restrictions if you spread your money in cash ).
Lads closed my account about a year ago , Win Only . If they are top price , 1/4 the odds a place in a 9 runner race where 4 have no chance or form , thats where I like to bet . Have flagged up betting strategy over the years , avoid the 22 runner handicaps like the plague , target the each way friendly races ( the bookies warn their staff not to accept substantial bets in those races , thats what I like to hear as a punter , the bookies aint stupid ) . And if you can get on in each way doubles , trebles , etc there is money to be made if you pick the right races and can read the form .
There are approximately 50 Lads shops in the North , no problem getting a few quid on in each if you have the cash , petrol and patience to drive around . Once upon a time I could get on on the net , but unfortunatley their computers and traders have identified a non mug punter . I never post up direct tips or strong fancies on here , never will , even if I fancy one strongly or have info . Did a couple of times ,horses won , but only took flak from the begrudgers on here . I will never betray confidences , posted up info on here 10 minutes before that race when I was informed that connections had got all their money on and info was in the public domain . Flak . Long training in that regard , goes back 60 years plus when family connections did very well out of inside info . Owners pay the bills , thay have to have first cut .
There are approximately 50 Lads shops in the North , no problem getting a few quid on in each if you have the cash , petrol and patience to drive around . Once upon a time I could get on on the net , but unfortunatley their computers and traders have identified a non mug punter . I never post up direct tips or strong fancies on here , never will , even if I fancy one strongly or have info . Did a couple of times ,horses won , but only took flak from the begrudgers on here . I will never betray confidences , posted up info on here 10 minutes before that race when I was informed that connections had got all their money on and info was in the public domain . Flak . Long training in that regard , goes back 60 years plus when family connections did very well out of inside info . Owners pay the bills , thay have to have first cut .
always better to post the winners after the race Kelly, well done
Presumably you classify as one of the begrudgers I often complain about , win only . The fact that I posted SNA was because it was relevant to the topic , viz the bet was on the Breeders Cup and it was done at fairly late in the evening when someone had highlighted the possibility of business being lost due to pitches not being open . It might have been 50p each way .
That I was in a bookies at all was also relevant as ( from numerous posts ) I often post that I visit the bookies about once a month , had already used up my visit to the bookies in another post on Tuesday when I also did a bet on the Breeders Cup . Did not want some nitpicker posting that I had over visited the bookies , explaining my presence to head off the nitpickers .
Presumably you took the trouble to read the rest of the post , not just the first line . If you have anything RELEVANT to add to the debate , feel free to do so .
That I was in a bookies at all was also relevant as ( from numerous posts ) I often post that I visit the bookies about once a month , had already used up my visit to the bookies in another post on Tuesday when I also did a bet on the Breeders Cup . Did not want some nitpicker posting that I had over visited the bookies , explaining my presence to head off the nitpickers .
Presumably you took the trouble to read the rest of the post , not just the first line . If you have anything RELEVANT to add to the debate , feel free to do so .
Your comment would have been just as valid if you mentioned "a breeders cup bet". I have yet to meet anyone who likes a after time trumpet - especially on a forum.
You have been added to the "aftertimer" thread on Horse Racing Ante Post forum. And a worthy entry
Still nothing relevant to the debate , win only ,from you .
ladbrokes are getting worse by the day if you want to bet on horse racing. everybet in the morning of €100 or more has to be referred to head office now. Most of the time if you ask for 3 or 4 hundred they lay you 100 max and sometimes they offer €25 or €50 and have been known to even refuse to lay anything.
If you are lucky enough to get a winneer which pays even something like €300 you will be waiting 20 mins to get it or sometimes be told call back in a few hours/tomorrow. God help you if you try and get paid out in a different shop from where you placed the bet as their staff hate this, been told numerous times thyat they dont have it spare and they need what they have for bets placed in their own shop. Very frustrating firm to deal with.
If you are lucky enough to get a winneer which pays even something like €300 you will be waiting 20 mins to get it or sometimes be told call back in a few hours/tomorrow. God help you if you try and get paid out in a different shop from where you placed the bet as their staff hate this, been told numerous times thyat they dont have it spare and they need what they have for bets placed in their own shop. Very frustrating firm to deal with.
You in South ko2? Seldom been in any Lads in the South , usually go to PP if I am there . Last Lads I was in was in Tralee , was not busy , but Tralee is fairly competitive so not surprising .
Generally I dont have big problems getting on in cash with them, about 20 shops easily accessible , and if you know the shops and approximate floor limits you can get on with a bit of legwork . But if you are doing that you are not going to collect them all together .
But Lads have changed tack a bit recently I suspect , for a long time they went missing from oddschecker , and I could count on the fingers of one hand the horses I have backed with them over last six months . More recently though they have been trying a bit harder , presumably someone somewhere has realised the need for turnover , even at diminished profitability . But like most of the other shops up here , nothing like the vibrant betting hub Belfast and surrounds used to be .
Generally I dont have big problems getting on in cash with them, about 20 shops easily accessible , and if you know the shops and approximate floor limits you can get on with a bit of legwork . But if you are doing that you are not going to collect them all together .
But Lads have changed tack a bit recently I suspect , for a long time they went missing from oddschecker , and I could count on the fingers of one hand the horses I have backed with them over last six months . More recently though they have been trying a bit harder , presumably someone somewhere has realised the need for turnover , even at diminished profitability . But like most of the other shops up here , nothing like the vibrant betting hub Belfast and surrounds used to be .
Does McLean lay a bet?
I used to pop into the Botanic Avenue shop when I was at college up there. At that stage they turned over plenty of money (not from me as I needed my cash for beer and maybe food the odd time).
I have not had any business with them since those days as they don't offer an online or telebetting service that I have seen.
I used to pop into the Botanic Avenue shop when I was at college up there. At that stage they turned over plenty of money (not from me as I needed my cash for beer and maybe food the odd time).
I have not had any business with them since those days as they don't offer an online or telebetting service that I have seen.
McLean's do lay a bet , again if I visit their shops I spread my cash , but cant remember honestly the last time I had a bet with them , think it might have been during Ascot . Fairly tight on prices .
I used to have sizeable bets with them on the golf , so couldn't complain about them . They do have a website somewhere , have it in my bookmarks , not sure I have ever got info out of it though . Google it .
Botanic shop was always fairly busy , not much good for me though , trying to park a car anywhere near it is a disaster .
I used to have sizeable bets with them on the golf , so couldn't complain about them . They do have a website somewhere , have it in my bookmarks , not sure I have ever got info out of it though . Google it .
Botanic shop was always fairly busy , not much good for me though , trying to park a car anywhere near it is a disaster .
yeah kelly based down south, agree you can get on if you try hard / get people to help you but its getting harder ans harder an you have to go to more shops to get your required stake on
Not doing much that way myself now , ko2 , used to have a few "plants " in certain bookies ( they would be there anyway , inveterate punters but trustworthy) in those days and a quick phone call and a short walk by them to another nearby shop would help get the most of the money on , before the price changed . Thats the main problem , the time scales involved . Easier if the market is not at a dynamic stage obviously .
There were dangers in operating like that , know one guy who got knocked for 8k , his runner did a runner over a period of time . Offered me his services regularly that runner , he always could get money on --for the good reason that he was a loser on his own account --, but I had known him from the dogs and knew the form . No thanks .
There were dangers in operating like that , know one guy who got knocked for 8k , his runner did a runner over a period of time . Offered me his services regularly that runner , he always could get money on --for the good reason that he was a loser on his own account --, but I had known him from the dogs and knew the form . No thanks .
First time i ever seen a FOBT in a bettin shop today, went into a small indo and he had one planted in the corner 
Naughty naughty
Naughty naughty
Was in spoils recently and they had a roulette wheel going on screen every few mins, is this same as an FOBT?
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