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happy irishman
21 Aug 11 17:35
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Date Joined: 12 Jul 03
| Topic/replies: 157 | Blogger: happy irishman's blog
According to Pat Spillane, The Gooch is the best he has ever seen.

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Replies: 95
By:
Mr Mischief
When: 21 Aug 11 17:36
Maurice Fitz was better
By:
paddletoe
When: 21 Aug 11 20:41
First of all if your the best ever forward of all time then your best ever player of all time.

I would not disagree very strongly with anyone who reckoned Gooch is the best player to ever play gaelic football. Between him and Peter Canavan for that title. Very marginal matter of opinion between these two. No one else is close to coming into the running.

Side tracking a little i would be interested to find out what the laws of the game state about the way Gooch bounces the ball. More precisely i am referring to the way he shows the ball before boucning it.
By:
kavvie
When: 21 Aug 11 21:33
hes the best forward i ever seen.followed closely by peter canavan,maurice fitz and matt connor.jacko and mick o connell best midfielders.best back has to be tomas o se with martin o connell not far behind.i dont see any issue with the way the gooch bounces the ball?
By:
Rocketfingers
When: 21 Aug 11 21:43
The Gooch is a player for the ages !
By:
silvergreaser
When: 21 Aug 11 21:49
The guy seems equally as good with either foot a rare talent indeed!.
By:
GANT007
When: 21 Aug 11 22:20
A super player......I would rate him slightly ahead of Peter Canavan.
By:
Upthewaterhill
When: 21 Aug 11 23:03
You could hardly argue with this post, GAA lucky to have got him. No other Gaelic footballer has ever delivered this consistently.
By:
DarkRosaleen
When: 22 Aug 11 00:27
No Jimmy Keaveney was and i should have no say coz in Kerry women are second class citizens.
By:
Kelly
When: 22 Aug 11 01:00
Always dangerous to classify anyone ( or 2 ) as the best ever .

If the Gooch was playing for Laois ( for instance ) would this post ever have surfaced ?

If you check back on some of my posts over the years you will know how highly I have consistently rated  Colm Cooper , even in the few instances where Kerry have lost out .

Pat Spillane himself rates very highly in my list of all time great forwards , but the Gooch and he are two completely different type of players . Spillane bust a gut for years and years in winning his 8 All-Ireland medals  , doing the hard yards and sometimes popping up in defensive positions . Preferred him as a footballer than a critic though .

The Gooch is brave , clever , beautifully balanced and accurate off both feet .  But he has played on possibly one of the top 5 teams of all time in his career to date .  That is a big factor in making assessments or comparisons . Mikey Sheehy and co were brilliant  , but a lot of their success came from playing alongside The Bomber who made the snowballs .

Top 5 certainly Colm  of his type of play , but how would he fare playing for a lesser team ?
By:
DarkRosaleen
When: 22 Aug 11 01:05
I have read all of your recent posts[you were silent for a long period] and you should stick to the golf.
By:
Kelly
When: 22 Aug 11 01:13
Dark Rosaleen , my ole pappy used to say "empty vessels make most sound " .  No point in corresponding on rubbish topics I reckon .

My point is that where others were knocking Cooper for below par performances , I was not . Never have  , probably never will .  He very often is worth the entrance fee money alone .
By:
DarkRosaleen
When: 22 Aug 11 01:15
You sound wise,do you think i have been treated fairly.
By:
paddletoe
When: 22 Aug 11 01:21
Canavan and the Gooch are simply on a different level to anyone else. If there was a transfer market in gaelic and both players were up for sale at their peak i would go for Canavan. Others might rate Gooch marginally better but either way these two fellas are on a different planet to anyone else.

Pat Spillane... I would rate him no better than a very good player who made the most of fairly limited natural ability. In no would i ever rate him a great player.

In my opinion the next best forward behind Gooch and Canavan was Matt Connor.
By:
DarkRosaleen
When: 22 Aug 11 01:24
What about Jimmy Keaveney?
By:
paddletoe
When: 22 Aug 11 01:28
Aye, being a young boy in the 70's i have very fond memories of Jimmy Keaveny. Loved watching him. Not sure he would rate that highly though in the roll call of great full forwards. But from a persoanly point of view he was always one of my favourite players to watch as a young boy.
By:
DarkRosaleen
When: 22 Aug 11 01:31
Thanks Paddletoe for treating me as human,you are a gentleman.
By:
timberman
When: 22 Aug 11 01:31
LARRY TOMKINS,MIKEY SHEEHY,COLM O ROURKE,..others to consider but gooch is probably the best in the past 40 years i can recall but even the present kerry team dec  o sull in particular are gifted with o se brothers also exceptional...
By:
Kelly
When: 22 Aug 11 02:01
Keaveney played the "old mans game " .  Patrolled the area between the 14 and the 21  , was the go to man for scoring , and seldom wasted a ball .  Could not see him playing football of the type some of you posters profess to love where four or five forwards hand passed and ran around to create scoring opportunities .

One of the things The Gooch does best is to be able to beat a man one on one .  Very few "modern " players can do this , either because they have not got the innate skill or because the patterns of play nowadays preclude this as a wise tactic . Canavan could , as well as a host of others from the past  , and was an excellent playmaker  , but he was markable .

Forwards come in all shapes and sizes  , some can influence the game by what they do without the ball . The good managers can suss out how best to use the talents at their disposal , and at the end of the day it is about the team result .

Pat Spillane probably made team of the century , Paddletoe  , he was top 5 in the best ever team of all time , never ever saw him underperform when he was fit .  Did laugh a bit when reading his book and noting that he was uncomfortable about being overlooked for an All-Star in 1991 , maybe he never actually sat down and watched the All-Ireland semi final that year .  But he was not the player then that he was in the previous decade  , knees dont last forever .  Nobody could mark him for 60 minutes in his prime , never mind 70 minutes . Great engine and he took it out of the guys chasing him  , important that as it makes it easier for the rest of your team . To me that is part of the formula  , not just the flashy bits .
By:
Mr Mischief
When: 22 Aug 11 04:56
My humble opinion(ie my lifetime)you have the Gooch, Canavan Joyce and M Fitz.If the Gooch keeps going the way he did today he'll take this accolade hand's down but he's not quite there just yet, not too far off it either, mind.
By:
paddletoe
When: 22 Aug 11 07:51
Good to see agreement thats the title of best footballer of all time is a straight shoot out between Gooch and Canavan. Never thought anyone would ever get close to Canavan but Gooch is definately giving the Tyrone man a good run for his money. With better players around him Gooch has had more big games to show off his skills. I would personally judge it on who would be the best player at their peak and i would go for Canavan.

But here are some stats so people can make up their own mind.

Pretty much single handely Canavan took Tyrone to three consecutive all ireland U-21 finals, winning two of them. Again, almost single handedly he took Tyrone to the 95 all ireland final, scoring 0-8 against Derry in Ulster, 1-7 against Galway in the semi final and 11 out of 12 points in the final defeat by Dublin. In the all ireland semi final the next year he was taken out of the match by Meath when he made his first run and was injured for two years.

He scored over 50 championship points when Tyrone won their first all ireland in 2003 ( when he was an old man ) scoring 0-11 in the Ulster final.Who will ever forget him coming back on from the bench two years later to win a second all ireland. Over his carreer he took an unfashionable Tyrone team to 4 all ireland senior  finals and probably would have taken them to more but for injuries. He also saw his club team dominate in Tyrone, a club team which was only in formation 10 years, winning two ulster club titles along the way.He even won an all star one year solely on his club form.

Gooch has no under age honours. Yes, he has more all irelands but thats an unfair comparison. So lets examine the individual scoing of both players. Gooch might look a more naturally skillful and graceful player but the scores on the doors dont lie. Here they are...

In terms of championship scores the facts are very telling. If Gooch stopped playing today he would be 9 points behind Canavan but having played 5 more championship games. Yet Canavans scoring record includes matches he played up until he was 35 and well past his best. Gooch's scoring record would only include matches when he was aged under 28 and at his peak. Moreover, a lot of Gooch's scores come off having Donaghy as foil. Canavan never had the luxury of such a big full forward to feed off. But theres more. A lot of Gooch's scores come in Munster where he has target practise against some of the weaker counties.

I am not taking anything away from Gooch. He is a great player and the liklihood is that we may never see the likes of either Canavan or Cooper again in our lifetime, possibly ever.

But for me Canavan shades it in the battle of greatness and on the altar of who is the best of all time.
By:
paddletoe
When: 22 Aug 11 08:14
Gooch averages 4 championship points per game. He is a beautiful player to watch. But if Canavan had to play championship matches each year against Clare, Limerick and Tipperary while he was in his prime they would need to send out for a second score board.
By:
Newmanix
When: 22 Aug 11 12:40
To reply to the op.  No.  He is a knacker and should have got a ban in the Munster final when he put his hand around a Cork players throat who was on the ground and put his full body weight on him while getting up and saying whatever he said.  Any other player would have been banned, but not our skinny, smiley, freckled, typically ugly Irish, red haired kerryman.  I hope the Dubs beat the sh1te out of them in the final so we can see the kerrymen crying like babies again.  Scumbags..................Rant overDevil
By:
Kelly
When: 22 Aug 11 12:46
Never thought I would see a died in the wool Tyrone supporter asserting that Tyrone ( with Canavan playing ) were essentially a one man team .

Dont subscribe  necessarily to that view myself , but it is interesting .

The Gooch has done things on the pitch that nobody else ( including Canavan and other brilliant performers ) has done in my 60 odd years of viewing football . I have also seen him shackled by some very good defenders  , but that is to their credit rather than his discredit .

Football is a team game , all men are not equal , and the scoring forwards nearly always get the headlines .  Few people are interested in how many tackles and hits defenders put in , I am , there are 15 players on a team and only one is going to be top scorer .

When I played myself I was always top scorer on any team I played for , scoring was easy if you had two good feet . good peripheral vision  and a bit of golf savvy . But I was not always the best player on those teams  , sometimes not even the best forward .

The media however like records , forwards nearly always get man of the match , but the only people who really know each players contribution to the team effort are those on the pitch and those in management ( well sometimes  , and I am sure  Paddletoe like myself could name managers who were not always clued in as to what was actually happening on the pitch to their team ) .

Easily the best forward ( scoring or otherwise ) in the last decade  , The Gooch , but where he fits in overall in a general description of the best forward ever depends on the criteria you lay down .

As an aside  , how come the match pair ( by certain peoples reckoning ) have no great "international " credits to their name ?  Just a thought for debate .
By:
thefly10
When: 22 Aug 11 19:31
Is Colm Cooper (The Gooch) the best Gaelic Football forward ever?

I'm gonna say yes he is .. The Gooch has everything, definetly for me the best forward ever to grace the game. He has his back pocket to show it. He has been playing on of the greatest teams there was, if not the greatest.
By:
neill d
When: 22 Aug 11 21:46
Declan O'Sullivan, Seamus Moynahan, Tomas O'Se and sean Cavanagh are the best all round players I've seen. I think the inside forward area is a category in itself to be honest, the best I've seen there are Cooper, Canavan, Maurice Fitz, caught the tail end, Bernard Brogan has the potenyial to join them.

I'm 22 btw, just a special category as well of players I've just enjoyed watching/ won't get the credit they deserve, Seanie Johnston (Cavan), John Galvin (Limerick), John Quane (Limerick), Declan Browne (Tipp), Paddy Bradley (Derry)

2 to watch out for:
Shane O'Rourke (Meath)
Aidan O'Se (Mayo)if he gets his fitness up.

Most overrated players
Ross Munnelly (Laois) hugely overhyped along with an average Laois team in the mid noughties imo
Kieran McDonald (Mayo) took too much out of the ball imo
By:
The Gotchee
When: 22 Aug 11 22:37
The Gooch has played one good game in the past 12 months against a team who struggled to beat London. Some people on here are getting carried away. Good player that he is,  Gooch isn't in the top twenty of football greats.
By:
Mordin.
When: 22 Aug 11 22:41
Just watched a few youtube videos on Canavan to remind myself how good he was. Agree with everything Paddlejoe wrote. Canavan for me. Gooch may catch up with him though. Gooch will need to win his club an All Ireland title.

I sometimes think the difference between a county player and a good club player is that a county player can slightly overcarry and get away with it. Giving them more time on the ball and therefore more vision.
By:
squigs
When: 22 Aug 11 22:42
McDonald was certainly not overated. He could carry Mayo on his own, what that team would have done for him yesterday, beautiful strike of a ball and strong as an ox.

Gooch has had 2-3 ordinary enough seasons by the admittedly incredible standards he had set between 02-05
By:
revedesivola
When: 22 Aug 11 23:46
as a wexford man i think matty forde is! retired now of course but anyone who looks very good when playing with fooking trees is surely worth a shout. i think the gooch is good, but i never see him scoring very good points, ie from far out or at difficult angles. undoubtedly very talented but the best ever? surely not...!
By:
yourlack
When: 23 Aug 11 07:21
U rarely see cooper scoring points from far out or difficult angles because he very rarely goes for them, he would rather pass the ball to a team mate in a better position. this is one of his best attributes i think its not all about him.
By:
DarkRosaleen
When: 23 Aug 11 08:33
What is the meaning of his nickname?
By:
yourlack
When: 23 Aug 11 08:45
it means attention seeking w. hore. Taught you of all people would know what that means.
By:
thegalwayman
When: 23 Aug 11 09:09
Ciaran McDonald remains the most talented footballer I have seen. Phenomenal.
By:
DarkRosaleen
When: 23 Aug 11 09:36
Yourlack what a horrid uneducated post,thought is the word you were trying to say in your second sentence not taught,you correctly give that a capital but omit to start your sad post with one.
By:
DarkRosaleen
When: 23 Aug 11 09:51
The timid Yourlack having made a fool of himself is trying and failing to come up with a reply,it is no wonder he is unemployed and single.
By:
Kelly
When: 23 Aug 11 12:22
Come on girls , stop scratching each others eyes and pulling hair  , this thread is ( mainly ) is about real men who have graced our pitches and screens .

McDonald was very good , bit too individualistic for my liking , but phenomenal not in my book .  Phenomenal would be reserved for the likes of Tiger and Jack in golfing terms , anyone who dwarfed the opposition continuously for a long time . Cant apply that in his case .
By:
neill d
When: 23 Aug 11 13:36
I'd say McDonald was quite frustrating to play with, he delivered the ball when he wanted to rather than when his colleague wanted it, he was eyecathcing, but lacked pace and was a failed corner forward so lacked versatility. I think he was overrated and I don't hear many who played with or against him say he was a great, I'd reckon a top class centre back like McGeaney or Moynihan if he fancied actually marking someone, would ate him. If you put someone like Moynihan or Tomas O'Se on him, they would cause havoc as he simply wouldn't chase back.

He is too flawed to be a great imo, he also really only had one truly great season and never won an All Ireland. I also get the feeling that he needed the team built around him and runners to thrive. Watch the way galvin accurately kicks the ball into Gooch, it is just as effective and not nearly as slow or elaborate. He was a very skillful player, I make him that as distinct from a great.

I must say I've enjoyed watching him but he is in no way a great player.

I'm surprised by you're comment galwayman as I would put Padraig Joyce miles in front of him, I have donnellan in front of him as well, but you're entitled to your oppinion of course.
By:
neill d
When: 23 Aug 11 13:40
I think Mcdonald also built a 'persona' as an individual renegade and it colours peoples perception of how good he was.

Its similar with Galvin, his importance is slightly overstated, he is a top class intercounty player, among the top 10 or 15 playing the game today, but I wouldn't have him in the same parish as Tomas O'Se or Cooper.
By:
Kelly
When: 23 Aug 11 14:01
Collectively the current Kerry forwards are a better unit than their defence  , so seen on the scorelines in matches they are involved in .

Galvin is a very important part of that unit , when he is playing ( well) the opportunities for the likes of Cooper and Daragh O'Sullivan are always there .  Declan O'Sullivan makes the forwards tick , my kind of player , overall his worth may only be apparent when he is no longer playing .
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