Saint Nicholas Abbey and John Francome

Put more on him when he said that...hes sum clown alright...useless tipster

As I;ve been saying for years -the guy is a waste of space as a ''commentator'' and should be taken off forthwith .
Whatever his metier is nowadays this is definitely not it . Getting embarrassing tbh.

Should you not be questioning as to why SNA was sent to the Curragh so punch drunk he could barely lift his feet, we had something similar last year with Fame and Glory getting stuffed in an egg and spoon race.
Maybe Francome was basing his opinion on St Nic's appalling run at the Curragh?, even the most optimistic of O'Brien sycophants had to be sceptical after that?.

The Coolmore mafia can continue to do as they please, and the Irish media will of course be applying some more super glue to their already tight lips!.

Francome said after the race that Pat Keating told him St. Nick would win...what more did he need... why didnt John F quiz keating about the Curragh run ?? and put his reply out there..surely he is payd to do just that...in any event that Curragh run was debated on here...and it was said top stables are exempt any stewards GLANCES into racecourse TRAINING

O'Brien's horses are a lot more forward I would say SG now.

A bit harsh on Francome. If we listened to tips all the time we would be in the poor house.

Hindsight is wonderful. Haggas may have said to him too that his horse ought to dot up.

I remember Willie Carson doing something similar after the Duke won at ascot a few seasons ago, if ya don't mention it before the race, ya shouldn't mention it after imo.

Agreed niall d...exactly my point ....and I too remember carson make that comment...cant think of the horses name but he was boasting he knew b4 the race.... but din't tell punters.....

Silvergreaser's point has been glossed over. This animal ran to a RPR of 88 lto. Now he turns in a serious performance maybe 110 plus(I haven't actually seen the race). What happened in Curragh? Was an explanation for his poor run asked for on the day? No word of it in the Calender notices. There has to be an explanation looked for in these instances, 4/11 shot gets beat and stewards say nothing.  Oh tote agg is down and crowds are down. I wonder why. Some people have no confidence in Irish racing and integrity and situations like that lend itself to that lack of confidence. It happened with Fame And Glory last year too.

On another note, theres a few on the antepost forum who are into times and they won't even bother with the Curragh. Our HQ and we don't even have dependable distances. I'm not into times really but I can see the attraction and people who are time fans are not being looked after. Just one small area which could be looked at. What is 'about 1m2f' Is it 10.5f or is it 10f or is it 9.5f. How hard would it be to start at the winning post and run around with a trundle wheel and measure each furlong out exactly. With rail movements in the curragh there could be a big difference in distances from one meeting to another if the race distances are not measured from raceday to raceday. Irish racing is the best quality in the world but it could be the most attractive racing too or have I've lost the plot.

All very valid point Sinndar001....as to having lost the plot ...no not you but others proably have...the stewards will put away a little known trainer for finishing 9th in a maiden hurdle in Bellewstown or Kilbeggan but see nothing wrong with the BIG BOYS doing it at HQ with a far bigger audience...

I turn off the sound when he starts up. Time and time again he proves he does no research into the runners he`s supposed to be analyzing.

The 2 races in question confirmed my often posted opinion re Ballydoyle runners . Inevitably with high profile ( and lesser inmates ) runners there is conjecture and verbal hyperbole --unbelievable speed etc -- but the only real measure is how we see them in each race . I have given up trying to anticipate the performance of their horses . The only time I back one of theirs is when it has proven recent form which I have seen for myself  , and not based on "reports" from the gallops etc .

St Nicholas Abbey was probably the proper price for his debut on soft to heavy ground at the Curragh , assuming he was semi fit to race  ,  ran like a pig .

Pre race at Chester I would not have been tempted to back him at any price for that race based on the age old adage that no odds justify a bad risk .  After the race you could not disagree with the opinion he should have been 1/4  for the race .  But that is hindsight . Not sure if anyone came up with an explanation for the explosive improvement in performance from one race to the other .  No bet in the race by the way .

Only thing I could add about situations like this is that we punters note anomalies like this as fairly commonplace , and it puts people off punting  , which cannot be good for the game .

I suppose to be fair to Aiden, although when the media talk about Ballydoyle its Aiden this and Aiden that....he is afterall just another employee of now four not three super rich men, so its fair to say he's only doing his job when these horses are turned out punch drunk on their debuts.
Magnier probably has the final say in everything that goes on?, looking at the market moves this morning looks very much like another Ballydoyle horse is set to make substantial improvement from its intial introduction this year?.
Recital returned somewhere in the region of 2/5 anyone?.

i thought recital was given far too much to do lto, shouldve won.


will win easily today.

I agree with you recital was given too much to do the last day and was fit enough to do himself justice........will win with Fallon on board today.........he won't be caught napping and will grap this with both hands.

Yeh probably should have won but would've only won narrowly at best, we should get a good idea as to how unfit the horse was on a line through Regent Street who finished just in front of Recital last time.

I don't think any capable trainer would run an unfit horse.

I had confidence the once great SNA would win, just expected it to be at Longford or Mullingar dog tracks. Thought he'd become dog meat you see.

I Think people are fairly harsh on Aiden first time out. That was fairly terrible ground at the Curragh the last day real glue pot and in fairness Heff got after him and their was no response what so ever. Obviously the better surface and the race over 1m5f helped him as did the extra run. We seen trainers like Oxx get Sindarr beat on his prep as well so its not exclusive to Ballydoyle.

Horses get beat not because their is a plot but coz they learn the game slowly than other. Recital has now hung on all 3 start on ATR and the Jockey was to blame for the previous defeat not the trainer as Heff was with Wonder of Wonders at Leapardstown when backed off the boards.

The majority off this big flops occur on terrible ground at the Curragh. We must take that into account as Punters. Their is no such thing as buying money and their is bad 4/11 shots and their are good 4/11 shots. We have all the information, we just need to make a proper decision and based on historicial info alone no-one should back these horses in glue pots. I myself have got caught by the balls trying to buy money on F+G last year and paided the price for not listening to the trainer and looking at the ground

some good points there ruby....

GANT007 Joined: 19 Sep 08
Replies: 2224 08 May 11 14:21   


I don't think any capable trainer would run an unfit horse.


So what is Barney Curley giving his non jiggers, sleeping pills?, when they're unbacked they can barely lift their feet and are mostly tailed off.

As for rubyisgods defence of the Coolmore Mafia?, funny how vastly inferior animals are able to go in the so called bad ground and the O'Brien superstars can't?, nobody is saying that they should be 100% first time but they should be fit enough to do themselves justice, the likes of Fame and Glory should never be turned over in a listed race if sent to the racecourse reasonably fit.

also a good point silvergreaser re fame and glory....

Why don't people apply the same rules to all Trainers.

John Oxx is one of the worst for it...but people don't seem to moan about Oxx. He regulary sends his horses unfit to the racecourse. The examples are for every one to see. Jim Bolger with that colt that finished pulled up at the Curragh that finished 3rd to Frankel in the Dewhurst.

Re: Coolmore Mafia?....David Watchman has all his horses forward at the start of every year as does Tommy Stack. They are part of the Coolmore brand but dont comply to the trend of sending unfit horses to the race track as Ballydoyle do.

"funny how vastly inferior animals are able to go in the so called bad ground and the O'Brien superstars can't?"

In fairness She Our Mark is a Group 3 Filly running against Fame and Glory with a Group 1 Penalty....I not sure what the stats are but i say they are fairly dire for Group 1 Horses carrying much more weight ot their rivals in listed contests. Shes Our Mark was rated around 110 and Fame and Glory rated 126-128. Giving 5lb away to that horse brings fame and glory back in glue pot ground on first run of the season. And in fairness they do not drift in the betting like other stables. FAme and Glory was backed from 4/6 into 2/5. St Nick was 1/2 into 4/11.  Horses are not machines expected to run up to their marks all the time after a winter break. If that case life would be easy

I must however agree though that the first run for Ballydoyle horses are terrible @ the Curragh. My main reasoning is the ground that they run in. However most of them are clearly only 60% fit but i would expect that would be good enough to beat their rivals on a proper surface