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From a tiny "nation " which produced players of this calibre on a regular basis up to the mid eighties , where have the current lot come from ?
I grew up in / around Belfast , still live here , but I wonder what has happened to the production line . The other local "big" sports such as rugby and gaelic football still produce players as good as if not sometimes better than the past , but soccer is falling behind , way behind .
The above heading list does not include all the excellent players from the past , and I dare say many could name 20 or 30 others who could play better one -legged than the current lot .
This is despite the excellent facilities enjoyed by the soccerites , well supported by the raucous "advisers" who run up and down the sidelines shouting advice at under age level . A friend of mine marked George Best at the age of 13 or 14 on a cinder pitch in the Ormeau Park , George turned up with his boots in a brown paper parcel , imagine the nikey kids of today walking a mile to play !
Have tonights match down for a 0-0 , 17 minutes more of drudgery before payday .
But how has the standard fallen so low ?
I grew up in / around Belfast , still live here , but I wonder what has happened to the production line . The other local "big" sports such as rugby and gaelic football still produce players as good as if not sometimes better than the past , but soccer is falling behind , way behind .
The above heading list does not include all the excellent players from the past , and I dare say many could name 20 or 30 others who could play better one -legged than the current lot .
This is despite the excellent facilities enjoyed by the soccerites , well supported by the raucous "advisers" who run up and down the sidelines shouting advice at under age level . A friend of mine marked George Best at the age of 13 or 14 on a cinder pitch in the Ormeau Park , George turned up with his boots in a brown paper parcel , imagine the nikey kids of today walking a mile to play !
Have tonights match down for a 0-0 , 17 minutes more of drudgery before payday .
But how has the standard fallen so low ?
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Don't think they are playing for Antrim do you?
Do you not remember the North in the 90's or the time they scored was it 1 goal in a year ! They will be a lot worse than this.
Do you not remember the North in the 90's or the time they scored was it 1 goal in a year ! They will be a lot worse than this.
One of those named above DID play for Antrim , Rocketfingers . Friends of mine from Kerry who were at the match told me they had never seen as good a performance from any player ( and they had a lot to pick from , being from Kerry and closely connected to the best team ever ) than put up by Gerry Armstrong , nearly beat them single handed , under 21 All Ireland semi final , probably late seventies .
My comments related to players up to mid eighties , when we still produced players who could compete on the world stage . Have not seen any / many in that category for about 20 years locally .
My comments related to players up to mid eighties , when we still produced players who could compete on the world stage . Have not seen any / many in that category for about 20 years locally .
Ta but i was just saying they ain't there mate, there is no Gerry Armstrong playing for Antrim and i have seen them play a few times in the recent years, they're poor and will be division 3 team next season.
In Rugby, they've not produced a Willie John McBride a Jack Kyle or a Mike Gibson for sometime either. These things go through cycles, north were lucky in the 80's with the players they had. Better example is Scotland for a country that has stopped producing quality players, when is the last time they produced a world class player? And look at their history. Also the break up of Eastern Europe seemed to coincide with the North and Scotland becoming also rans in football.
I seen this Duffy lad from Derry play a few times, remember the lad that nearly died he has declared for the Republic and to me looks a really classy footballer.
Best, no matter what facilities you have is not something you produce, he was just pure genius, once in a lifetime player, a freak.
By the way you forgot Jennings. :)
In Rugby, they've not produced a Willie John McBride a Jack Kyle or a Mike Gibson for sometime either. These things go through cycles, north were lucky in the 80's with the players they had. Better example is Scotland for a country that has stopped producing quality players, when is the last time they produced a world class player? And look at their history. Also the break up of Eastern Europe seemed to coincide with the North and Scotland becoming also rans in football.
I seen this Duffy lad from Derry play a few times, remember the lad that nearly died he has declared for the Republic and to me looks a really classy footballer.
Best, no matter what facilities you have is not something you produce, he was just pure genius, once in a lifetime player, a freak.
By the way you forgot Jennings. :)
Best was a one of so he can be discounted, the North have produced some very good rugby players in recent times, Tommy Bowe and particularly Stephen Ferris would compete in any era. They also have a lot of good young academy players coming through up at Ulster.
Footballing wise they are suffering the same as the Republic, Opportunities for young kids in England are more limited then ever and LOI and the Northern Irish league is just not going to offer experience of the same standard. With less places for Irish players the standards both North and South are going to drop considerably.
Footballing wise they are suffering the same as the Republic, Opportunities for young kids in England are more limited then ever and LOI and the Northern Irish league is just not going to offer experience of the same standard. With less places for Irish players the standards both North and South are going to drop considerably.
If you look just at rugby versus soccer in both parts of this island , the overall standard in rugby has gone up ( considerably some would argue) and the soccer standard has gone down , comparing last 20 years with the time up to the mid eighties .
The last time Antrim had a competitive senior team was in the forties , when Gerry Armstrongs uncle was to the fore , so not sure where they came into focus in the debate , reckon they are a red herring .
Read an article recently by Geoff Hurst , who reckoned that the only English soccer player in the last 40 years who would have got on the English 1966 team was Brian Robson . Tend to agree with him , so the demise is not just in Ireland , north or south , or Scotland , it is also in England and Wales , everywhere in these isles . English rugby is way ahead now of the scrappy teams they put out 40-50 years ago ( excepting occasional gifted players then ) , but the soccer team there is not . England soccer team is way ahead of any of the other home nations , but that still does not put them in the top echelon in my opinion . Adequate rather then above average .
But overall the fall in standard in N I soccer is worse than the fall in the other home nations , comparing current versus pre 25 years ago . Cant explain it , but the return on time and money invested daily in soccer activities coaching and training in Northern Ireland is abysmal . Maybe those running the show are to blame , but dont know any of them or anything about them , so cant comment objectively .
In gaelic football , Tyrone and Armagh have had continuous upward movement in last 20 years , showing the value of excellent coaching and system development . I would argue that their "star " players in the last 20 years are no better than the star players from 50 years ago , but the overall standard has upped itself in performance terms .
In rugby , Kyle , McBride and Gibson have been mentioned as being better than any of current N I rugby players , which is palpably true comparing each era relative to their contemporaries . But stars apart , the current rugby squads in Ulster have a strength in depth way ahead of what was available up to the eighties .
Put simply , rugby and Gaelic are on an upward trend north of the border , soccer is on a steep downward trend . Why ?
The last time Antrim had a competitive senior team was in the forties , when Gerry Armstrongs uncle was to the fore , so not sure where they came into focus in the debate , reckon they are a red herring .
Read an article recently by Geoff Hurst , who reckoned that the only English soccer player in the last 40 years who would have got on the English 1966 team was Brian Robson . Tend to agree with him , so the demise is not just in Ireland , north or south , or Scotland , it is also in England and Wales , everywhere in these isles . English rugby is way ahead now of the scrappy teams they put out 40-50 years ago ( excepting occasional gifted players then ) , but the soccer team there is not . England soccer team is way ahead of any of the other home nations , but that still does not put them in the top echelon in my opinion . Adequate rather then above average .
But overall the fall in standard in N I soccer is worse than the fall in the other home nations , comparing current versus pre 25 years ago . Cant explain it , but the return on time and money invested daily in soccer activities coaching and training in Northern Ireland is abysmal . Maybe those running the show are to blame , but dont know any of them or anything about them , so cant comment objectively .
In gaelic football , Tyrone and Armagh have had continuous upward movement in last 20 years , showing the value of excellent coaching and system development . I would argue that their "star " players in the last 20 years are no better than the star players from 50 years ago , but the overall standard has upped itself in performance terms .
In rugby , Kyle , McBride and Gibson have been mentioned as being better than any of current N I rugby players , which is palpably true comparing each era relative to their contemporaries . But stars apart , the current rugby squads in Ulster have a strength in depth way ahead of what was available up to the eighties .
Put simply , rugby and Gaelic are on an upward trend north of the border , soccer is on a steep downward trend . Why ?
In Rugby the standard collectively has gone up due to professionalism. The great Wales teams of the 70s were great and played brilliant rugby but would not by physically able to compete against some of today's players. If the played the current All Blacks tommorrow they would be hammered out of sight. Ulster's standard has not fallen that much, Rugby has grown in other parts of the country
GAA I couldn't agree more the standard has risen but I would offer a number of reasons.
The backdoor system has benefited Ulster more then any province as well as the organisation being much improved.
Importantly the troubles and rule 21 did huge damage to GAA in Ulster, with no Ulster winners of All Irelands between 1968 and 1991. Young people were often fearful of playing GAA past minor level, Down's record at minor football level is outstanding with their senior record no where near as good. A lot of these minor players were going to other sports after the age of 18.
GAA's gain was soccer and rugby's downfall to an extent.
GAA I couldn't agree more the standard has risen but I would offer a number of reasons.
The backdoor system has benefited Ulster more then any province as well as the organisation being much improved.
Importantly the troubles and rule 21 did huge damage to GAA in Ulster, with no Ulster winners of All Irelands between 1968 and 1991. Young people were often fearful of playing GAA past minor level, Down's record at minor football level is outstanding with their senior record no where near as good. A lot of these minor players were going to other sports after the age of 18.
GAA's gain was soccer and rugby's downfall to an extent.
What has helped Rugby massively is that there are technically only 4 pro clubs, the 4 provinces.
The actual clubs act as feeders, and this allows the fan base for the 4 provinces to be much greater.
Also they compete at a European level weekly. Its not comparing like with like.
Is soccer was to take this route, with a view to being part of some future Euro league who knows.
The actual clubs act as feeders, and this allows the fan base for the 4 provinces to be much greater.
Also they compete at a European level weekly. Its not comparing like with like.
Is soccer was to take this route, with a view to being part of some future Euro league who knows.
Agree with most of the comments re improvement in gaelic and rugby , but it still does not explain to me the demise of soccer locally . In terms of effort and activity I see huge efforts being made promoting and funding soccer activities at lower level;s than Irish league , but the conveyor belt seems to be empty . Is it the participants or those in charge that are falling short of acceptable standards ?
If the talent is not there it's not there Kelly, you can't make it mate. I would argue one point that the standard of skill involved with gaelic teams north of the border has not improved at all in the last 15 years. It's their organisational, tactics and fitness that has. The peace process has played a big part in the rise of Ulster teams as per Squigs post earlier on this thread. Ulster teams are master of the blanket defense little no skill involved but good coaching.
Not sure where peace process comes into it , but agree that skill levels are possibly not as high as they were 20 plus years ago . I took some players to "compromise rules " try-outs in late eighties , speaking to the Ireland fitness trainer , he told me he could tell the players from the north with everbody facing the wall . Shape . Put it down to university involvement / leisure centre facilities at the time I did .
In the nineties the biggest influence on northern teams players came from the 2 universities , Queens and the Poly ( plus school input ). Still around today , vide Geezer , wee James , Tohill among others .
In the nineties the biggest influence on northern teams players came from the 2 universities , Queens and the Poly ( plus school input ). Still around today , vide Geezer , wee James , Tohill among others .
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