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France in Paris is no baptism of fire for Sexton. He's proven himself to be up to the task at every level and I find it astounding that anyone could still question his ability to do a job for Ireland.
Both he and ROG can do a job when called upon and the man in form should be the man given the jersey. Coming into the 6N, I firmly believe that the jersey was Sexton's to lose. He was selected on merit and produced a couple of excellent performances that established him as No 1. But, injury took its toll and O'Gara came in and did very well against Italy. Just like Sexton in the AIs, he took his chance and the jersey is now his to lose once again. |
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Where would we have been in 2000 with that attitude and BOD? -
Can't see any comparison here. O'Driscoll was getting his fourth 6 nations start in Paris. Ireland had lost all but one game in the year previous and were guilty of some of their worst performancs in history in that 'era'. Putting someone of O'Driscoll's youthful raw ability into a team that poor and low in morale wasn't even a decision. |
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KK, in what aspect of the game do you think ROG is superior to Sexton at? Other than experience, of course.
I used to think that ROG was the worlds pre-emonent tactical kicker, but tactical kicking has changed in the last few years. The emphasis is now on length and ROG is no Hernandez/Steyn etc. The diagnal cross field kick to gain territory is a less attractive option than it once was as lineout accuracy has improved. |
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As much as Sexton deserved to keep his place after SA he lost it through injury. ROG stepped up and took his opportunity and hardly deserved to be dropped. The place was up for grabs in Autumn although I think Sexton was always going to play against SA to test him at the top international level.
He was unfortunate to pick up his injury but such is the quality of the Irish squad presently if someone takes the jersey in such circumstances he is liable to keep it. Donnacha and Leo is another big call on the horizon. If Cullen reproduces last weekend against France it would be hard to drop him too |
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Icbd - I do think it's a very tight call between them.
If Sexton was available the last day I would have had little quibble against him starting. However I think it would be too big a call to have put him in ahead of O'Gara after his performance last week and with the track record he has. It would have added extra pressure on Sexton and that just might have been that little bit too much. Anyway, France are not a team that I would like to see Ireland hoofing long balls down to. It needs to be kept tight and tactical. If it reverts to that type of game we could be in trouble. Unfortunately, it is difficult to be fully objective about all this as like most fans down here my judgement may be a bit clouded. However I've always been an advocate for sticking to the tried and trusted when it still shows good form. I also have always had the highest respect for Kidney 's choices. Sexton's day will come soon enough. |
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In what aspects do you think Sexton is better then O Gara ?
Tackling for sure but not overly important for a 10. His carrying ability is the only standout diffenece for me. Everything else is too close to call |
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Itcanbe done has nailed it
itcanbedone 11 Feb 12:38 KK, in what aspect of the game do you think ROG is superior to Sexton at? Other than experience, of course. |
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ferris fit to play
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cue price collapse
game on!!!!!! |
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Good news
SOME PLAYER Is he the most gouged player in history? |
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Stephen Ferris will take his place in the Irish back-row when Ireland play France in the RBS 6 Nations on Saturday.
Ferris will line out alongside Jamie Heaslip and David Wallace after successfully coming through training today. The 24-year-old was not named in the original team selected on Tuesday due to concerns over the knee injury that ruled him out of Ireland's opening Six Nations clash. But the Ulster flanker has been given the all clear by medical staff and will now take his place. As a result, Kevin McLaughlin, who started in the 29-11 win against Italy, drops out of the 22-man squad. Rory Best, Tom Court, Donnacha Ryan and Sean O'Brien will be the forwards substitutes. Andrew Trimble, who was replaced by Keith Earls in the starting XV, also drops out of the match-day 22. Eoin Reddan, Jonathan Sexton and Paddy Wallace will be on the bench. Ireland second row Donncha O'Callaghan is to leave the squad to continue his injury recovery with the Munster squad as part of their warm weather training this week. |
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huge bonus for Ireland that Ferris is fit. Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip has a world class look to it and should hold its own against the French trio. Biggest worry for me is the Irish bench which looks a bit lightweight compared to French. With a few injuries, our strength in depth looks questionable again.
Irish price still looks too high. Will wait for the anthems and if ROG does not have that purple look that he seemed to have constantly during the WC, will take a punt at 3.0+. |
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purple look? was he on the daq?
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Maybe I missed something in the Ireland vs Italy match . Apart from nearly going to sleep in the second half when Ireland performed like settling treacle .
A world class back line (11-15 , maybe except Trimble --who was replaced ) should have looked good against the Italians . They were below average , but to me the problem is O'Gara . They looked better when Wallace replaced O'Gara ( and you all know how low I rate Wallace ) . O'Gara KICKED well , penalties certainly , but O'Drscoll's tactical kicking , when he indulged in it , was BETTER than O'Gara's . So I just dont accept the "O'Gara the form man thesis " . But if Sexton is not fit , so be it . |
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So a couple of excellent kicks by an outside centre can take from a fly half's performance and is something worth judging him on? Not in my world.
And I think you missed plenty. O'Gara had a very good game against Italy. Like it or not but accurate KICKING (snap), in play or from penalties, is a major part of a fly half's game. And can you really read anything into the fact that substitutes livened things up in the last 15 minutes of a game that was over before half time? O'Gara's performance was certainly not perfect but I don't accept that he is not in form. |
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snowing heavily in Paris. Hope this game proceeds.
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Great news about Ferris.STAND UP FOR THE ULSTERMAN!
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Tackling is important for a 10, just not for Ireland it seems...
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anyone rate tony buckley? is he far from making the irish team/
always thought he has lots of unfulfilled potential |
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hi guys - what is the general view on the match !
Heart says Ireland head isn;t so sure !!! any constructed informed views welcome |
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Tony Buckley can't scrummage - pound for pound he's the worst in the 6N
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KK05 o gara had an adequate game against italy, he ran the game well, kicked well thats it.
at no stage did Ireland look like opening up italy, the game was essentially won at half time yet the out half never threatened to open them up. Sexton brings an element of suprise to the game, he has a break and can run thr ball, rog cant, sexton can tackle, rog cant. Is ogara a poor outhalf? not by a long way, i do however feel that the last few years he has stagnated due to no competition. id prefer to see sexton start, had he been fit against the italians i think he would have started both games. |
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KK 05 , maybe I am spoilt by having witnessed most of the really good Irish out-halves throughout the years . Kyle , Gibson , Ward , Campbell were all superb footballers . Some of them , notably Campbell were also excellent kickers , but they did not get their place essentially for their kicking ability . Again , unfortunately for the 4 mentioned they did not have 5 good / excellent players "behind " them . So they never tasted the success in an Irish jersey that recent team players have .
All O'Gara has ever brought to the current Irish team is place kicking and tactical kicking . If , as reported by one newspaper recently he is 6 foot tall and weighs 13 and a half stone , all I can say is that he does not punch his weight in anything construed as a tackle . The main criticism I have of O'Gara is that he has proved incapable over many years of "liberating " some of the superb running talent we have behind the scrum . How many Triple Crowns and championships would we have won recently with Gibson or Campbell playing in his place ? O'Gara is excellent at the level below International , great performances for Munster over the years . But at international level the other teams have him sussed as one of the weakest links in the Irish team ( and the Lions ! ) and that puts a bigger burden on the other players with scrappy ball . Sexton on the other hand has demonstrated to me that he has a much better overall football game , he is bigger , stronger and he can initiate moves to give the back line space to demonstrate their ability . I think in time he may join the ranks of excellent out halves produced by Ireland . Excellent " green shoots" to date , hope he stays injury free . The recent obsession with place kicking out-halves puzzles me . Some of the best place kickers I have ever seen did not play at out-half , no idea why it neems to be de riguer to have your place kicker ( who is often targeted , and cops a lot of hits ) at out half . I will still be supporting O'Gara , hope he has a hell of a game and that we win , but I do expect to see him targeted by the French who can be quite cynical on these occasions . Come on Ireland ! |
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Its funny how different players are judged by different criteria
ballaman68 12 Feb 00:15 KK05 o gara had an adequate game against italy, he ran the game well, kicked well thats it. When Sexton did this against SA he was the new Messiah "he ran the game well" is that all? |
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Just so you know I have always been a fan of ROG but accept that Sexton is a serious player. As I said in an earlier post Sexton deserved to keep his place afterSA but was unavailable against Italy due to injury. In much the same way as Donnacha will struggle to regain his place if Leo Cullen continues to play well JS will struggle to dislodge ROG if Rog's form holds up.
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KELLY
Did you know that Leinster have scored 6 tries in 3 full and 77 mins Heineken cup matches this season when Sexton has been on the pitch and that they scored 12 tries in the other 2 matches and 3 minutes |
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I think in 5 or 6 years time when we ressurect this thread ROG will have retired and will have been replaced by a slightly more physical clone
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In my opinion no outhalf on his own can tackle a hardinoquy or maybe a batrenaud--these guys need to be 2 man tackled. Jonny wilkinson has been the best tackler wearing the no.10 but he has suffered lots of injuries beacuse of it.
Every no.10 needs a pack thats on top so he can exert his influence. I remember the campbell / ward debate there was no doubt at the time campbell was the surefire kicker whereas ward had more flair. Mike gibson wouldnt have coped in the modern era he would have been too light I dont think anybody is doubting sextons talent but he is 22 and ROG is still only 32 and is the man in form and has the jersey . ROG was 22/23 when he got his ireland spot so sextons time is almost upon us if thats a guide. Its the pack we need to get on top that will enable us to win so lets hope we keep penalties to a minimum and the referee to be fair to us. |
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Kelly - All O'Gara has ever brought to the current Irish team is place kicking and tactical kicking .
All?? It's amazing how easily you can dismiss two of the most important attributes so easily. Cross field kicks and *****that brought a triple crown at Twickenham, a Grand Slam last year and that glorious Horgan try at Croker to name but a few of a great number. And why not ignore the fact that he has ran in 14 tries and is in Irelands all time top ten try scorers (and that is not even one of his strengths!). And what about his crucial drop goals and superb temperment? And it seems that his pass to Trimble last week not only failed to stir your memory bank but slipped past it altogether. The main criticism I have of O'Gara is that he has proved incapable over many years of "liberating " some of the superb running talent we have behind the scrum . The top 5 all time try scorers for Ireland have all played outside O'Gara. Hardly restricting. I think in time (Sexton) he may join the ranks of excellent out halves produced by Ireland . I agree and O'Gara is definitely one of them (imo of course). And anyone that thinks his performance against Italy was just "adequate" is not worth debating his merits with. |
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Good post KK. I am steaming that someone could include Wardy in the pantheon of great Irish 10's. Kelly, was it the hairy chest that swayed you?
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P.S. the only ones who rated Ward ahead of Campbell were those who failed to understand the game!
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Itcanbedone , pretty obvious my "ratings" of Irish outhalves is chronological . Campbell was much better than Ward in my opinion .
As for Mike Gibson being too light for modern game , the list by that logic would include all the greats from the past including Gareth Edwards . Mike Gibson was as tough as nails , always fit , punched well above his weight ( of which I am unaware ) and he tackled ferociously players O'Gara would have been knocked over by ( and we have seen plenty of that activity over the years ) . Plus he was the superb footballer and reader of the game . A Lion first of firsts pick in a good era , not a make up player . Scoring records points wise mean nothing to me . Statisics can be turned to advantage by most observers . Does not replace what the eye sees and the mind stores . Someone has to pot the penalties and convert the trys . It is a significant element of the game , but in rating a footballer it comes down the list with me . Chris Patterson would by that measure be among the best players in the world . I repeat , O'Gara has been great with Munster and he has had good games for Ireland , but cant rate him as an international great , which some people on here obviously think . Unfortunately for most rugby afficionados , Munster traditionally ( and recently ) have played a certain way , maximising the talent at their disposal . If that involves constant recycling / keep ball and tactical kicking , so be it , only warms the hearts of die hard supporters . O'Gara fits into the mould in that sort of game , does it superbly , but its not the sort of spectacle that excites a lot of the purist rugby followers . Sexton potentially looks the part , O'Gara never has . Someone has had to play No 10 . Humphrys was a much better all round footballer than O'Gara and an extremely intelligent individual with a double uni first , , but he was older than O'Gara and not as favourably looked upon as the Munster man . Have my own theories on that one . Sexton still has to prove it , but he has 10 years up his sleeve , which is a long time to be converting scores and penalties . I repeat , hope O'gara has a good game tomorrow , I will be cheering him on along with the other 14 , but I cant help feeling there will be occasional glances over the shoulder to the subs bench ( assuming Sexton is fit to play ) . Time will tell . |
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I see on rte sports page a interview by the french scrum half parra , his comments should ignite the irish--he said ireland are **s, they ** every weekend, they are the best **s
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Humphreys better than O'Gara? What my eyes have seen and my mind has stored makes me chuckle when I read this.
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Have to say, I largely agree with Kelly. Personally I dont consider ROG to have been 'an international great' despite the fact that statistically he certainly qualifies for that label. By great, I mean of legendary stature. Bit unfair on him, perhaps, but thats just the way I feel.
Was always in the Humphrey's camp, now my strong preference has shifted to Sexton. |
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Hope O'Gara doesn't shirk the tackles again tomorrow.
Bastareaud will probably have a field day. Vive l'Irlande. |
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Humphries quicker, better balanced runner, better eye for space and could take advantage of a gap. Far better defender obviously. Both equally good passers, a quality of ROGs sometimes overlooked. ROG may have been statistically a better goalkicker, and perhaps a better tactical kicker, but all in all, I would say Humphreys was the better all round natural rugby player.
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Can you explain statistically a better goalkicker?
I'll concede on the better balanced runner but that's it in my book. |
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Sorry and better defender without the far ;)
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humphries a better defender!!!! has he become a sloicitor or something
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